D70 vs. 300d vs. *ist D

PerezDesignGroup

Ok, I've been researching the h*ll outta this comparison online and it's driving me nuts. I'm ready to move up to a DSLR from my existing A70. I've narrowed the field down to these 3 choices. I've never owned an SLR so I'll basically be starting from scratch. Of all the forums out there, I feel the most comfortable asking in this one...
Can you examine my reasoning below and tell me if I'm nuts? Do you have any insight or opinons to add?

Why I like the 300d: It's clear that the 100 iso produces extremely smooth pics. I plan on taking lots of night pics. JPEGs are sweet.
Why I don't like the 300d: Crippled BIOS, Slow startup time. My current 3-sec A70 has left me missing tons of pics.

Why I like the D70: Tons of features, Fast startup time. Lenses seem inexpensive compared to Canon.
Why I don't like the D70: No 100 iso. Users note problems with grain in higher iso. JPEGs don't compress too well.

Why I like the *ist AA Batteries. The Pentax name gives me warm and fuzzy feelings.
Why I don't like the *ist No solid reason yet. From all the user experience I've gathered, it seems very 'generic' or normal. Nothing out of this world. And I have yet to examine a night shot for grain.

So...is there anything I've missed? I'm leaning heavily towards the D70 or *istD at this point. I figure any major noise problems in the 300d can get NeatImaged away. Anyone here have a *istD gallery I can take a look at?

damonff

Hey

Phil Askey's images for the Pentax:

http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/pentaxistd/page19.asp

...and his pros and cons:

[url=""][/url]

1. Introduction 2. Specifications 3. Body & Design 4. Body & Design 5. Operation & Controls 6. Operation & Controls 7. Displays 8. Menus 9. Timings & Sizes 10. Features 11. Features 12. Software 13. Photographic tests 14. Photographic tests 15. Photographic tests 16. Compared to... 17. Compared to... 18. Conclusion 19. Samples

---

> Buy this product < Back to product reviews
Conclusion - Pros

• Good tonal balance, average resolution, low in-camera sharpening
• Good metering, very little need for exposure compensation
• No sharpening artifacts, virtually no moiré artifacts
• Low noise up to ISO 800, slightly higher than the competition after that
• Very natural color response, very film like
• Support for sRGB and Adobe RGB color space (better to be on main menu)
• Very compact for a 35mm based digital SLR, the smallest yet
• Solid build quality, feels robust
• Nice control structure, clear indication of dial function
• Viewfinder magnification better than competitors, bigger view
• Program Reset button and selectable program lines
• Fairly customizable thanks to wide range of custom functions
• Fairly quick operation, just over a second startup with a good CF card
• RAW mode provides the 'digital negative', about 1 stop of latitude in over exposed images
• Excellent battery life with CR-V3 Lithium batteries
• Onboard PC Sync flash terminal

Conclusion - Cons

• Soft appearance to images, converted RAW images are sharper
• Continuous shooting not as fast as competition, image buffer also smaller
• No histogram on record review (immediately after shot)
• Image parameters don't offer enough latitude of adjustment
• Awkward to select WB, Image quality and ISO on mode dial
• Annoyingly small CF compartment, orientation of CF card
• Bundled software is fairly weak, RAW converter window too small
• Photo Laboratory converted RAW images show some Bayer pattern artifacts
• Large RAW files (stored as 16-bits per pixel?)
• Firewire or USB 2.0 should have been a consideration for connectivity
• Price competition from Canon's EOS 300D

PerezDesignGroup wrote:

Ok, I've been researching the h*ll outta this comparison online and it's driving me nuts. I'm ready to move up to a DSLR from my existing A70. I've narrowed the field down to these 3 choices. I've never owned an SLR so I'll basically be starting from scratch. Of all the forums out there, I feel the most comfortable asking in this one...
Can you examine my reasoning below and tell me if I'm nuts? Do you have any insight or opinons to add?

Why I like the 300d: It's clear that the 100 iso produces extremely smooth pics. I plan on taking lots of night pics. JPEGs are sweet.
Why I don't like the 300d: Crippled BIOS, Slow startup time. My current 3-sec A70 has left me missing tons of pics.

Why I like the D70: Tons of features, Fast startup time. Lenses seem inexpensive compared to Canon.
Why I don't like the D70: No 100 iso. Users note problems with grain in higher iso. JPEGs don't compress too well.

Why I like the *ist AA Batteries. The Pentax name gives me warm and fuzzy feelings.
Why I don't like the *ist No solid reason yet. From all the user experience I've gathered, it seems very 'generic' or normal. Nothing out of this world. And I have yet to examine a night shot for grain.

So...is there anything I've missed? I'm leaning heavily towards the D70 or *istD at this point. I figure any major noise problems in the 300d can get NeatImaged away. Anyone here have a *istD gallery I can take a look at?

DoctorIt

i would think the major drawback to the Pentax would be the lenses, or lack thereof, no? What about the 10D? at this point it costs the same as the D70, and you get to use Canon glass. Speaking of which... you find Nikkor glass to be less expensive that Canon glass?!? Are you comparing apples to apples? As in consumer to consumer grade lenses? If so, you'd find them almost identical, or Nikon to be more in my experience - not to mention, they offer less in the way of consumer or prosumer grade lenses. And in that category, I've found (and my Nikon friend has also found) that you get what you pay for. Nikon's pro glass is awesome indeed, but the same friend prefers Sigma's consumer grade over Nikon's. Just my .02.

wxwax

PDG, just a thought. They say in SLRs you buy the lens, not the camera. By the time you're done emptying your wallet, you'll have spent more on lenses than the camera. If you buy quality glass, it should last a lifetime. Whereas you'll go through lots of camera bodies before you shuffle off this mortal coil.

Canon and Nikon lenses both have great reps. I have no Nikon experience. But lots of people gravitate towards Canon because of the quality and selection of their glass.

dkapp

I was in the same boat as you a few months ago. It seems you are in the same price range as I was. I chose the D70 for many reasons, and have not regretted my decision.

You don't have to buy Nikon or Canon glass, I'm buying Tamron & I'm in love. The lenses are great, and cost 1/3 the price.

Your doing the right thing. Ask around, read forums and don't forget to try and hold each camera. Thats what sealed the deal for me.

Dave

pathfinder

DoctorIt wrote:

i would think the major drawback to the Pentax would be the lenses, or lack thereof, no? What about the 10D? at this point it costs the same as the D70, and you get to use Canon glass. Speaking of which... you find Nikkor glass to be less expensive that Canon glass?!? Are you comparing apples to apples? As in consumer to consumer grade lenses? If so, you'd find them almost identical, or Nikon to be more in my experience - not to mention, they offer less in the way of consumer or prosumer grade lenses. And in that category, I've found (and my Nikon friend has also found) that you get what you pay for. Nikon's pro glass is awesome indeed, but the same friend prefers Sigma's consumer grade over Nikon's. Just my .02.

I am with DrIT. Rather than racking your brain over which DSLR you prefer, decide whose glass you prefer. No matter which DSLR you buy, in three years time it will be yesterday's news, but the lenses you buy today will still be excellent 10 years from now. Great lenses are the ticket! - the body just holds the "film" and excludes light.

I bought a Canon 10D last fall because I wanted access to Canon's IS telephotos, even though I had been a Nikon fan for years. I think either Nikon or Canon make great lenses that will be around a long long time. Other brands may or may not be available or well supported in the future.

One alternative to a 300D or a D70, might be a used D60 or a used D100 or a used 10D. By fall, Canon or Nikon may announce more new cameras for their fall lineup and Christmas season - so waiting until late October might open up some alternatives too.

DSLRs are like computers - they will be upgraded year after year, but the great glass for them is not likely to be changed in the proximate future so choice of lenses is the key to your decision not the minutia of DSLR features in my opinion. Some people favor Nikon for wide angle lenses, and some favor Canon for telephotos. But both make world class glass.

Baldy

I'm with the go-with-the-best-glass school of thought. I owned Nikons for years but switched to Canon because of their lenses and haven't looked back.

My favorite lens on earth is the Canon f2.8 IS 70-200mm. I like it better than any product I've ever owned of any kind. It only has one major drawback, and that's that my friends (one shoots with a D70) keep borrowing it (and my 10D that's attached to it), so I find myself without a camera when I need it sometimes.

I'm really impressed with the D70, but so far I haven't been reading the best of things about Nikon anti-shake lenses. Perhaps I'm out of date?

patch29

pathfinder wrote:

By fall, Canon or Nikon may announce more new cameras for their fall lineup and Christmas season - so waiting until late October might open up some alternatives too.

Photokina is being held this year at the end of September in Germany. It is one of the worlds largest Photo EXPOs. This is where a lot of new cameras are announced. I think it is where the 1Ds was annouced two years ago. I would think Canon will probably announce a 10D replacement and a 1Ds replacement, who really knows, but if I were betting I would put money on those two cameras, maybe Nikon will replace the D1x.

I would probably delay until then, but be aware a new model may take some time to roll out in large quantities, and the older models may drop in price (or become very scarce).

As others have said pick your choice, Nikon or Canon, even Fuji make a DSLR that has a great sensor (the S3 should be very nice if it ever comes out?).

Nikon seems to be happy with the 1.5x multiplier, as does Fuji which uses Nikon lenses. Only Kodak and Canon have offered full frame sensors (not including Contax's camera which did not go far), but not Nikon? They have started to offer dedicated digital lenses to cover wide angles. This is one large difference from Canon and Nikon. Canon offers cameras that have 1.6x, 1.3x and 1x multipliers, offering more choices, but the cameras are more expensive as you lower the multiplying factor.

If I did not have any glass and wanted the best prosumer camera today. I think the D70 is the best in class with the features and price it is offered at. The big difference being the sensor in both the 300D and D70 which I have not really followed, but I would think dpreview would have a good comparison. That said I think Canon will replace the 10D and make a better camera, then Nikon, etc. Nikon is faster at rolling out their new models of prosumer cameras then their professional line, Canon seems to upgrade across the line fairly quickly, for a while the prosumer releases seemed like one a year and the pro cameras were about two years apart.

Given that you want to do night photography that is one of the largest challenges in the digital world, the newer cameras and sensors always seem to be doing a better job. Another good reason to wait until the end of September. The noise suppression software also continues to advance. I have seem some results from Noise Ninja that are pretty remarkable. You can throw that into the price of a current camera and it may allow you to create the images you are looking for.

A lot to think about, hopefully all of the manufacturers will give us all something jaw dropping at Photokina.

patch29

Baldy wrote:

My favorite lens on earth is the Canon f2.8 IS 70-200mm. I like it better than any product I've ever owned of any kind. It only has one major drawback, and that's that my friends (one shoots with a D70) keep borrowing it (and my 10D that's attached to it), so I find myself without a camera when I need it sometimes.

I switched when the 1Ds came out two and a half years ago and have not looked back either.

The only thing I do not like about the 70-200 is how easy the AF/MF, IS on/off, buttons are to hit. I wish they were a way to lock them in place. Other then that, it is a super sweet lens.

DoctorIt

patch29 wrote:

I switched when the 1Ds came out two and a half years ago and have not looked back either.

The only thing I do not like about the 70-200 is how easy the AF/MF, IS on/off, buttons are to hit. I wish they were a way to lock them in place. Other then that, it is a super sweet lens.

if you want to send it to me, i'm sure i could develop a solution and suggest a redesign. of course, I'll need it for an undisclosed length of time.

PerezDesignGroup

You guys are the BEST! This is the finest help I've received yet. Bottom line -as wxwax and others noted- it's all about the lens. So I'll be taking that into account from here on out. I'll be off later this week so I'll run out and try out the various cameras hands-on.

And waiting an extra month at this point really isn't going to matter so I'll monitor news from Photokina closely.

Baldy, thanks for the tip on the lens. I'll definitely take a close look at that one. I've heard great things about the IS lenses.

Dkapp, your gallery is the reason I'm even considering a Nikon. You've got some gorgeous pics in there

Thanks again!

dkapp

One thing you may want to consider is used lenses. Finding used glass can save a ton of money when your first getting your gear together.

I spend a lot of time on the Fred Miranda Buy & Sell forum looking for good deals on Nikon gear. I can say finding good used Canon lenses is a lot easier than finding Nikon, or Nikon mount lenses.

One thing I wish I would have known when I was starting.

Dave

PerezDesignGroup

dkapp wrote:

One thing you may want to consider is used lenses. Finding used glass can save a ton of money when your first getting your gear together.

I spend a lot of time on the Fred Miranda Buy & Sell forum looking for good deals on Nikon gear. I can say finding good used Canon lenses is a lot easier than finding Nikon, or Nikon mount lenses.

One thing I wish I would have known when I was starting.

Dave

Great tip! I've been frequenting www.keh.com but that Fred Miranda site looks pretty friggin' popular. Is he a well-known photog?

dkapp

PerezDesignGroup wrote:

Great tip! I've been frequenting www.keh.com but that Fred Miranda site looks pretty friggin' popular. Is he a well-known photog?

I like that site a lot. The people there are very friendly, and the buy & sell forum seems to self-police itself very good. I actually ran across his site when I was reading a post on dpreview about his PS plugins and actions. I hung around for awhile & eventually joined.

Maybe someone from dpreview could give us a little more background on Fred as a photographer. Here is a link to some of his photos
http://www.fredmiranda.com/hosting/showgallery.php?thumb=1&stype=2&perpage=12&sort=1&cat=500&si=Fred_Miranda

Dave

wxwax

PerezDesignGroup wrote:

Great tip! I've been frequenting www.keh.com but that Fred Miranda site looks pretty friggin' popular. Is he a well-known photog?

That's an excellent suggestion by dkapp. In fact, I bought most of my lenses used over the last 3-4 months, all but one in tip top condition. The Fred Miranda classifieds are a pretty good place, by far the most active buy/sell forum that I've seen. Which means you have to watch them like a hawk and bid immediately if you see something you like and youi trust the seller.

As kapp said, it's very self policing, to a fault really. Other sites I've used are www.photo.net and www.robgalbraith.com. You'll see the same seller show up on more than one site. There's also a Canon forum at http://photography-on-the.net/forum/ but their buy/sell isn't very active.

You'll have to register to make contact with sellers at these sites, but it's free. I used the same info I use here at dgrin.

PerezDesignGroup

Update!!!

In a sudden and unexplainable eBay moment, I bought this camera. Seriously...I did. I don't know why I gravitate towards these types of cameras but if I get any decent shots you guys will be the first to see them.

Hopefully it'll let me pass the time until Photokina.

cletus

PerezDesignGroup wrote:

Update!!!

In a sudden and unexplainable eBay moment, I bought this camera. Seriously...I did. I don't know why I gravitate towards these types of cameras but if I get any decent shots you guys will be the first to see them.

Hopefully it'll let me pass the time until Photokina.

Well done! If you get any pictures at all with it be sure to let us see!

wxwax

Fascinating. Looks like a good learning tool. In researching the camera, I came across a recommendation to use the 'sunny 16' rule when exposing shots. Here's a good summary.

dkapp

PerezDesignGroup wrote:

Update!!!

In a sudden and unexplainable eBay moment, I bought this camera. Seriously...I did. I don't know why I gravitate towards these types of cameras but if I get any decent shots you guys will be the first to see them.

Hopefully it'll let me pass the time until Photokina.

That looks like a lot of fun. I almost bought a Holga last night, but my girlfriend talked me out of it. I love impulse buys, for that reason I'm not allowed to go to ebay anymore

I can't wait to see what you can do with your new cam.

Dave

dkapp

wxwax wrote:

Fascinating. Looks like a good learning tool. In researching the camera, I came across a recommendation to use the 'sunny 16' rule when exposing shots. Here's a good summary.

Good link. I've heard 'sunny 16' before, but I never knew what it was about.

Dave

PerezDesignGroup

wxwax wrote:

Fascinating. Looks like a good learning tool. In researching the camera, I came across a recommendation to use the 'sunny 16' rule when exposing shots. Here's a good summary.

Woo-hoo! You just saved my a$$! Thanks I'll be cut n pasting that to the back of this brick!

I'm really looking forward to this camera for 2 things...

1. Black and White Film
2. Velvia film

You guys have any other film to recommend/experiment with? How about online photo processing? The only experience I really have with that is limited to Snapfish (and it was pretty decent for my needs at the time).

DoctorIt

$3 rangefinder cam - can't go wrong. Ebay is a treasure trove those kind of toys. A friend just picked up a Nikonos underwater cam, played with it, and sold it off again a month later. Ahhh, ebay!

zero-zero

Strangely, where I live "sunny f16" will consistently underexpose shots by one stop unless it's "friggen' sunny f16" or "I'm at the beach/snow sunny f16". For my "run of the mill sunny" days, it's "sunny f11".

Re the Canon/Nikon choice, Nikon better come up with a new product to replace my D1x or I'll be taking the Canon plunge real soon. The one-two punch of a "1Ds + Mark II" team is luring me in like a chorus of mermaids in a storm. And to think there might be a substitute for the 1Ds seeing the light at Photokina...

wxwax

dkapp wrote:

That looks like a lot of fun. I almost bought a Holga last night, but my girlfriend talked me out of it. I love impulse buys, for that reason I'm not allowed to go to ebay anymore

I can't wait to see what you can do with your new cam.

Dave

I think a Holga would be fun. Kinda kitschy photography, and perhaps expensive w/film, but cool results.

After seeing what PDG bought, I almost bought a Zorki yesterday! I was thinking it would be good for grainy B&W photos, and a great learning tool.

wxwax

zero-zero wrote:

Strangely, where I live "sunny f16" will consistently underexpose shots by one stop unless it's "friggen' sunny f16" or "I'm at the beach/snow sunny f16". For my "run of the mill sunny" days, it's "sunny f11".

How interesting. I wonder why the discrepancy? Is it the difference between clear skies and some haze/cloud cover?

gubbs

wxwax wrote:

I think a Holga would be fun. Kinda kitschy photography, and perhaps expensive w/film, but cool results.

After seeing what PDG bought, I almost bought a Zorki yesterday! I was thinking it would be good for grainy B&W photos, and a great learning tool.

Hey Sid
I have a Zorki, a 4K I think, my Dad bought it back in the 70's, complete with 28mm / 135mm lenses and a viewfinder, here's picture taken with it at Trafalgar Square when you were allowed to feed the pigeons. That's me with the ankle swingers !!


It's scanned from a slide. I need to work on the colours etc, or maybe rescan now I have a bit more experience. There is about 300 to do though & I just don't get the time..

pathfinder

wxwax wrote:

How interesting. I wonder why the discrepancy? Is it the difference between clear skies and some haze/cloud cover?

Arthur Morris in his book " The Art of Bird Photography" has a whole chapter devoted to the sunny 16 rule and he is very specific that it only applies between 10 am and 3 or 4pm with front lit medium toned subjects. Side lighting or backlighting require exposure changes of course. ALso cloud cover would account for 1 f stop of light loss. But I know that Z-Z knows this too, so it is curious why he says f11. Has he had his shutter speed calibrated or is this more than one camera. Does his handheld light meter meter this way f11 also? Or is the sun fading in Spain only? :cry

Kodak film always had recommended exposure data printed on the inside of the 35mm box, which was basically based on sunny f16 1/ISO.

zero-zero

Could be the smog cover. All those cigar smokers are really clouding the sun, you know. Or maybe my concept of "sunny" is too lax, living in northern Spain (very different from the topical south).

Whatever it is, it happens with any camera or meter. If the sun is out, f11. To use f16 it has to look like Baywatch is on.

Funny people caught on this off-topic and did not reply to my "1Ds+Mark II" comment.

wxwax

zero-zero wrote:

Funny people caught on this off-topic and did not reply to my "1Ds+Mark II" comment.

Prolly because those cameras are out of our league. Having seen Nikon trump the 300D with the D70, I can't imagine they'll let the 1DmkII go unchallenged. I don't know much about the higher mp cameras in Nikon's range, I'm afraid. But if they're in danger of losing you, then they have problems with their professional line, I should have thought.

wxwax

gubbs wrote:

Hey Sid
I have a Zorki, a 4K I think, my Dad bought it back in the 70's, complete with 28mm / 135mm lenses and a viewfinder, here's picture taken with it at Trafalgar Square when you were allowed to feed the pigeons. That's me with the ankle swingers !!


It's scanned from a slide. I need to work on the colours etc, or maybe rescan now I have a bit more experience. There is about 300 to do though & I just don't get the time..

That kinda looks like a Holga shot!

mercphoto

Leapfrog

wxwax wrote:

Prolly because those cameras are out of our league. Having seen Nikon trump the 300D with the D70, I can't imagine they'll let the 1DmkII go unchallenged.

Canon and Nikon will keep leap-frogging each other. Canon can claim the 300D was the first affordable digital SLR. Nikon comes out later with more features. Canon will do the same back to Nikon. Etc. It will be interesting to watch happen.

But what is a "*ist D" ? Not familiar with that term.