7D or T4i?

jenniferann

I asked a while back about which camera to go with, originally I was doing weddings, but now it will be just for my personal use, landscapes, macro & animal portraits. I am now using an XTi, by biggest thing I dont like with the XTi is the noise. I want something that will give me better pics in low light. I just read the comparison chart for the two of them and except for tha focus points the T4i looks good, I would love to hear any thoughts?

BradfordBenn

I went through the exact decision last month. I have an XTi and was debating between the two as well. For me the big issue was the focusing points and speed of focus. Just to give a little comparison, I took pictures at two hockey games at the same venue so the lighting is consistent but the seats are a little different and I can see the differences in the noise and can say the improve speed of focus was noticeable but these are action.

The XTi Gallery is http://photos.bradfordbenn.com/Events/Hockey-Notre-Dame-v-Boston/20855372_8JG5tw
The 7D is here http://photos.bradfordbenn.com/Events/Hockey-Notre-Dame-hosts/26321516_DC2fvw

I will be the first to say it is not a direct comparison as they were different seats and different lens used for different shots. However you should be able to tell the difference in the noise.

I also like that the 7D can control my Speedlite which I don't think the T4i can do.

I think you will be happy with either

davev

Although it's not on your list, Have you thought about the 60D?
I don't own one, and for the life of me, I don't know why.
I have a T3i and a 7D, and it sure looks like i could have gotten everything in this one camera.

Here's a link to Dpreview's review of it. LINK

The things I like over the T3i:

Kalvin white balance.
1/8000 shutter speed max.
Dial on the back instead of the buttons.
Same battery as the 5DMKII and 7D. (I think that these are great batteries)
I was out in -8 degree weather this morning with my 7D. With the battery grip and 2 batteries, I took 1150 pictures and had 40% of the battery power left.
It shares the flip screen with my T3i. The best LCD protecter around.
When I have it hanging from the neck strap, or when I put in my camera bag, I flip the screen around.

As for the 7D, it has more focusing points (that I don't use), made better so it weighs more, and has the joystick that can be very helpful once you're use to it.
Oh, and it shoot's 8 frames a second, the 60D does 5.3 frames per second.

The frame rate is what allowed me to shoot 1150 shots this morning.

I know B&H has them for $699 right now. I don't know if thats a great deal of not, I'm just saying.

jenniferann

Thanks for the input, I just am so confused as which is the right choice for me and what I will be shooting. I like the wheel on the back of the 7D compared to the buttons on the back of the T4i,
but I like the fact that screen moves on the T4i, but not sure just how much I would use that feature.
I also like the info panel on the top of the 7D, question, do you still see all your settings (ISO, ex, etc)
on the back LCD too, or are they just on the top of the camera now?

davev

jenniferann wrote: »

Thanks for the input, I just am so confused as which is the right choice for me and what I will be shooting. I like the wheel on the back of the 7D compared to the buttons on the back of the T4i,
but I like the fact that screen moves on the T4i, but not sure just how much I would use that feature.
I also like the info panel on the top of the 7D, question, do you still see all your settings (ISO, ex, etc)
on the back LCD too, or are they just on the top of the camera now?

The 60D does land right in-between these two.

You like the wheel, both the 7D and 60D have it.
You like that the screen moves, the T4i and 60D have that.
You like having the top LCD, the 7D and 60D have that.
You want to see the settings on the back of the camera, all 3 cameras can do that.

They all have an 18mp sensor.
The battery for the 7D and 60D are far better than the ones in the T4i, but, those can be found at a low price on the web.

The best thing you can do, is to go out and put each of these in your hand and see how it feels.

The T4i should feel like an old friend, much like the XTi. A few more buttons, but much the same.
The 60D is a bit larger, but not by a lot. A few of the controls are in different spots, but you get used to that fairly quickly.

The 7D, a little larger than the 60D, and probably the one with the biggest learning curve.
If you look through the web and all the talk about setting up the 7D to focus correctly, you'll see what I mean.

What lenses do you have?

jenniferann

Thanks Dave, I do need to put them all in my hand and see how they feel. I have a grip on my xti and I love the
bigger feel to it, and the controls for vertical shooting, plus I feel it balances my lenses better.
I have the Sigma 17-70 mm lens, this is usually on my camera, the 100 mm macro, which I always need a tripod for
and the 100-400 mm IS, love this lens and I can hand hold it with good results.
Is the learning curve for the 7D that hard? I am pretty techy and I do like to read.

davev

jenniferann wrote: »

Thanks Dave, I do need to put them all in my hand and see how they feel. I have a grip on my xti and I love the
bigger feel to it, and the controls for vertical shooting, plus I feel it balances my lenses better.
I have the Sigma 17-70 mm lens, this is usually on my camera, the 100 mm macro, which I always need a tripod for
and the 100-400 mm IS, love this lens and I can hand hold it with good results.
Is the learning curve for the 7D that hard? I am pretty techy and I do like to read.

Hmmm.
I hope others join in on this.
My 7D hates my 100-400.
Unless things are brightly lit, I have a hard time getting a good clean shot out of it.
I'm on my 2nd 7D, I thought that my 1st was giving me these results, but I honestly think the one I have now is worse. (with that lens)
I've used that lens a ton on my 5DMKII and my T3i, absolutely no problems.
Put it on the my 7D, I get maybe 30% in focus shots.
Many will say that I don't know how to set up the camera.
I put it on the center point focus in one shot focusing. The same way I set up all of my cameras going back to the 300D.
I don't feel it's me.

I hope some people will give you their positive experience with this lens combo.
I hope you do some searches about this. I am not alone in what happening.

Check out P.O.T.N. and Dpreview for some threads about this and make up your own mind.

I'm kind of involved in a couple threads at Dpreview right now.
this one: LINK
and this one: LINK

I guess the only thing I can say is, if you buy a 7D, or really any new camera, get your lenses
on it and try it out in different conditions. And buy from a store with a good return policy. Just in case.

jenniferann

Wow, thanks for that bit of info on the 7D and the 100-400, I would really be upset if this combo
does not work the best together, I really hope someone else chimes in on this subject.

I will see what else I can find out, but if this is true, I will probably steer away from the 7D and
honestly, that is the camera I was hoping to purchase.

Anyone else having this trouble?

pathfinder

I find the AF on the 7D works very well, but I select my AF points, and almost never use the center AF point with recompose. I think the AF compares favorably to my 1Dmk4, not as good, maybe, but pretty darn close. I have never really liked my Canon 100-400 either Dave. I used it is Alaska with fair results, but there are several other lenses I really prefer a lot more.

I do like using the groups of "three AF points" on the 7D for center, right, left, up and down choices - I think three AF point groups are faster to grab focus than single points, and work better in lower light than single AF points. I take pains to avoid focus and recompose, although I do understand that for wildlife distances, it is less important than at near distances. I can usually achieve FOCUS LOCK on my 7D with a three point AF group until it gets so dark I cannot see much color at all - say ISO 3200, f6.3, 1/250th give or take like in this image which was shot 30 to 45 minutes after sundown in Kenya - It was pretty dark http://pathfinder.smugmug.com/Travel/Kenya-October-2011/i-cwH98KP/0/L/Caracals%20-7604-L.jpg

I favor One Shot AF for stationary subjects, but do find AI servo quite useful.. I do not use AI Focus whatsoever.

mbonocore

The 7D was a great camera for me. The AF Was 100 times better than my 5D Mark II. The t4i seems like a great camera but I would still suggest a mid range like the 7D. If you can really pony up, Go for the 6D


Michael Bonocore
www.mb-photography-sf.com
www.facebook.com/mbonocore
plus.mb-photography-sf.com

jenniferann

Thanks everyone, I really want to step up my photography and take it to the next level, and I had been
reading about the 7D and I do want to upgrade from the xti series of camera to a pro camera.
I don't think the 60D is what I want, if i am going to buy new I think I want to go with a newer
camera, I wish I could afford to go with the 6D but I can't. Thanks for sharing the links and
your experiences.

chuckdee1

I love my 7D and have never had any issues with soft images. I'm not using a 100-400....I have 16-35, 24-70, 70-200, all 2.8 and a 50 1.4.




____________________
Chuck Dee - AKA Chris
"My job as a portrait photographer is to seduce, amuse and entertain." - Helmut Newton
www.bellissimofoto.com

davev

Jenniferann, I went to test my 7D and 100-400 today. I have a post about it here: LINK

rpcrowe

I love my 7D and if I were to switch from a 40D as my second camera, it would be another 7D that I would choose...

pathfinder

Dave , your 100-300 Sigma is f4 at 300mm with a 1.4 TC, your 100-400 is f5.6 at 400 mm, which I am sure you are aware.

Larger aperture lenses are generally going to do a better job at AF due to the extra light the sensor/AF mechanism is gathering. That may be why you said the 100-400 does better in bright light. I think most f5.6 lenses have difficulty with AF in the dim light of dark shade, before sunrise, after sunset. Many of the better wildlife shots tend to occur in less than bright sunlight. I could really tell a big difference about 20 minutes after sunset with my 70-200 f2.8 still focusing, and my 70-300 f4-5.6 IS L which began to have difficulty with AF in the looming dark. I really like the 70-300 IS L in good light, but after sunset a good f2.8 prime is much better, even on a 1DMk4.

I don't think it is the 7D, but the aperture difference perhaps that you are noticing.

davev

pathfinder wrote: »

Dave , your 100-300 Sigma is f4 at 300mm with a 1.4 TC, your 100-400 is f5.6 at 400 mm, which I am sure you are aware.

Larger aperture lenses are generally going to do a better job at AF due to the extra light the sensor/AF mechanism is gathering. That may be why you said the 100-400 does better in bright light. I think most f5.6 lenses have difficulty with AF in the dim light of dark shade, before sunrise, after sunset. Many of the better wildlife shots tend to occur in less than bright sunlight. I could really tell a big difference about 20 minutes after sunset with my 70-200 f2.8 still focusing, and my 70-300 f4-5.6 IS L which began to have difficulty with AF in the looming dark. I really like the 70-300 IS L in good light, but after sunset a good f2.8 prime is much better, even on a 1DMk4.

I don't think it is the 7D, but the aperture difference perhaps that you are noticing.

It could be, I don't know.
What I do know is that I have to work way harder to get a good looking shot SOOC using the 7D in less than great light.
Considering that it's supposed to have this great focusing system, I don't get it.
Aren't advances supposed to make the job easier, better, faster?
I re-bought this camera for the shots per second. That's it. My T3i can do anything this camera can, for me, except rattle off 8 frames a second.

My best bet is to sell this camera, and wait for the next best thing with a faster frame rate.
Of course the way I've talked about this camera lately, I'm sure everybody will be beating down my door to get it.

I do have one question, the 7D came out about 3 years ago, did Canon put this kind of a focus system in any of their other cameras?

ziggy53

davev wrote: »

... I do have one question, the 7D came out about 3 years ago, did Canon put this kind of a focus system in any of their other cameras?

The AF section of the Canon 7D seems most similar to the Canon 1D MKIV (... but it's not exactly the same). Both of those seem to be preceding and similar technology to the AF systems used in the 5D MKIII and 1D X. All of these mentioned bodies differ from the AF systems used in previous 1D/1Ds bodies, namely the older "Area, Secondary Image Registration" or A-SIR AF systems of the past.

If you accept that your test images are action, and specifically in the class of "bird in flight", then you may wish to try the Canon recommendation* of AI Servo mode, single focus dot, plus AF Point Expansion.

Allow the AF system to lock onto the subject for about 1/2 second using the 1/2 shutter button depress or Back-Button Auto Focus, then follow through with full shutter-button for the captures. Do try to keep the subject as close as possible to the starting AF point.

See if this change in modes and technique helps to improve your ratio of "keepers".

---

*(This source of information comes from the following:
http://www.learn.usa.canon.com/app/pdfs/quickguides/CDLC_EOS7D_AF_Modes_QuickGuide.pdf
http://www.learn.usa.canon.com/resources/articles/2011/whats_news_eos7d_article.shtml)

pathfinder

As Ziggy says, the AF system of the 7D is a distinct step from previous cameras like the 40D, and required me to learn new skills at using the AF system in the 7D that are different from my previous experience with the 40D or 50D. I found myself frustrated when first handed the 7D, but once I learned how to make use of the new system, a light went off, and I never looked back. I truly feel the AF in the 7D is a very close to the 1DMk4 in its speed and accuracy of AF.

But fast glass does work better than slow glass, pn any camera, you can't trump physics.

Try the three AF point groupings and see if that doesn't speed things up for you too. AI Servo can really help with moving subjects also.

davev

I was using AI Servo with single point focus. I started out on center point, but somehow with my gloves on,
I ended up on a focus point up, off of center.

My next question probably needs more setting info, but I don't have it right now.

If a swan starts to " get up ", you get the camera on it and half press the shutter, you see the i.s. kick in, then
you press down to start taking photos. You're in AI Servo, but you figure the first shot in going to be less than perfect.
You feel that you maintained on the swan fairly well, you rattle off let's say 10 shots. Even if the first 2 or 3 are out
of focus, wouldn't you think at some point the servo would lock in and get the rest of them in focus?

It seemed like if the first two were off they were all off.
If the first one was good, they all were.

I know with the older 9 point systems, you could miss a couple, but the AF would lock back in. This camera
doesn't seem to be doing that, at lease not consistently.

wave01

Hi I got a t2i/550d 2 years ago then it's was a cut down 7d same sensor only one processor. Since then aps-c sensor has been in all canon cameras. We moved on to digic 5 with the t4i/650d, this year it may change but not to late on when we will see a 7d mk2. IMHO the t4i/650d is a great up grade and with good lenses you will get great results

ziggy53

davev wrote: »

Hmmm.
I hope others join in on this.
My 7D hates my 100-400.
Unless things are brightly lit, I have a hard time getting a good clean shot out of it.
I'm on my 2nd 7D, I thought that my 1st was giving me these results, but I honestly think the one I have now is worse. (with that lens)
I've used that lens a ton on my 5DMKII and my T3i, absolutely no problems.
Put it on the my 7D, I get maybe 30% in focus shots.
Many will say that I don't know how to set up the camera.
I put it on the center point focus in one shot focusing. The same way I set up all of my cameras going back to the 300D.
I don't feel it's me.

I hope some people will give you their positive experience with this lens combo.
I hope you do some searches about this. I am not alone in what happening.

Check out P.O.T.N. and Dpreview for some threads about this and make up your own mind.

I'm kind of involved in a couple threads at Dpreview right now.
this one: LINK
and this one: LINK

I guess the only thing I can say is, if you buy a 7D, or really any new camera, get your lenses
on it and try it out in different conditions. And buy from a store with a good return policy. Just in case.

davev wrote: »

I was using AI Servo with single point focus. I started out on center point, but somehow with my gloves on,
I ended up on a focus point up, off of center.

My next question probably needs more setting info, but I don't have it right now.

If a swan starts to " get up ", you get the camera on it and half press the shutter, you see the i.s. kick in, then
you press down to start taking photos. You're in AI Servo, but you figure the first shot in going to be less than perfect.
You feel that you maintained on the swan fairly well, you rattle off let's say 10 shots. Even if the first 2 or 3 are out
of focus, wouldn't you think at some point the servo would lock in and get the rest of them in focus?

It seemed like if the first two were off they were all off.
If the first one was good, they all were.

I know with the older 9 point systems, you could miss a couple, but the AF would lock back in. This camera
doesn't seem to be doing that, at lease not consistently.

Typo? (Stuff Happens)

If the focus point changed, and if you didn't realize it at the time, that could easily skew the results.

Do make sure to set AF Point Expansion. It is disabled by default.

davev

ziggy53 wrote: »

Typo? (Stuff Happens)

If the focus point changed, and if you didn't realize it at the time, that could easily skew the results.

Do make sure to set AF Point Expansion. It is disabled by default.

No typo, it happened.
I have my viewfinder setup so only the selected point is visible. So even though it moved, I was
still putting the focus point on the subject.

I stayed with the single point because a lot of the time more than one swan is taking off. I wanted
to be able to stay on one bird instead of maybe having it switch back and forth between them.

chuckdee1

ziggy53 wrote: »

The AF section of the Canon 7D seems most similar to the Canon 1D MKIV (... but it's not exactly the same). Both of those seem to be preceding and similar technology to the AF systems used in the 5D MKIII and 1D X. All of these mentioned bodies differ from the AF systems used in previous 1D/1Ds bodies, namely the older "Area, Secondary Image Registration" or A-SIR AF systems of the past.

If you accept that your test images are action, and specifically in the class of "bird in flight", then you may wish to try the Canon recommendation* of AI Servo mode, single focus dot, plus AF Point Expansion.

Allow the AF system to lock onto the subject for about 1/2 second using the 1/2 shutter button depress or Back-Button Auto Focus, then follow through with full shutter-button for the captures. Do try to keep the subject as close as possible to the starting AF point.

See if this change in modes and technique helps to improve your ratio of "keepers".

---

*(This source of information comes from the following:
http://www.learn.usa.canon.com/app/pdfs/quickguides/CDLC_EOS7D_AF_Modes_QuickGuide.pdf
http://www.learn.usa.canon.com/resources/articles/2011/whats_news_eos7d_article.shtml)

I use the Back-Button Auto Focus and it works great. Switched years ago from the 1/2 shutter.



____________________
Chuck Dee - AKA Chris
"My job as a portrait photographer is to seduce, amuse and entertain." - Helmut Newton
Dallas Wedding Photographer
steel buildings

Brett1000

jenniferann wrote: »

Thanks everyone, I really want to step up my photography and take it to the next level, and I had been
reading about the 7D and I do want to upgrade from the xti series of camera to a pro camera.
I don't think the 60D is what I want, if i am going to buy new I think I want to go with a newer
camera, I wish I could afford to go with the 6D but I can't. Thanks for sharing the links and
your experiences.

if you shoot a lot of action - sports, BIF, etc. the 7D will be worth it.