CIF Playoff game - HS Basketball - Ref says NO FLASH

Hungry

She said it was a new rule in the playoffs. Can anyone verify?
I bounce into the ceiling with an Einstein. This was in the third quarter (lots of pops prior in first half, though difficult when the ball never comes to that end of the court). She said that all 'off camera flash' had to be pre approved by the San Diego Section CIF offices.

Has anyone experienced this???

There was a boys game afterward (both are in playoffs) and I talked to the refs, who made no reference to the 'new rule' but said he thought it could distract a shooter and suggested I didn't use the flash when the players were shooting.

While that wasn't the time to argue the point, my experience (from this season and the past 3 seasons) is that the players are so concentrated on what they are doing that a pop of 1/8000 of a second doesn't register with them. And, the coaches of my 'home school' encourage the photography - and if it bothered them, I would hear about it.

And, when I go to the Calif State tournament handbook, the only reference is that no commercial photographers will be allowed at the state events in order to respect the contracts they have with their vendors.

Kikoprice

I shot with 2 580ex's last night, no issue.

73Rocks

I haven't had any problems like this in NE South Dakota. Like you said, if they are concentrating on what they should be doing, even my on-camera flash (I sit off to the side of the basket) shouldn't bother them at all. Besides that, being photographed is just part of "playing in front of the big crowds".

Hungry

Games Friday and today - refs didn't say a thing, though setup was the same. I tried to maneuver around a problem by talking to the visiting coach and asking him to tell me if any players had a problem. Also, I gave them my card and told them that if they emailed me, I would provide access to the images (an unlisted Smugmug gallery) where they could download any images they want for free. After all, these are the playoffs.

In the past couple of days, I have checked the state and local CIF web sites = no mention of flash anywhere.

So, no more adverse reaction to the flashed bounced off ceiling.

Kikoprice

Funny, your tag line under your name says " Hungry for sales" . The only real time that you can count on sales of prep sports photos is during the playoffs, but you give your images away for free.

I don't think there was any problem to maneuver around, other then the one above.

Hungry

"I don't think there was any problem to maneuver around, other then the one above." Kiko - I am not sure I understand what you are saying in this comment.

I figured that there would be no loss IF the opposing coach asked for access to the images - as they never have bought before (in the last 5 years).

And, while I have the 'home team" coaches on my side, the 'no flash' comment by the ref caught me off-guard. I wanted to be prepared should it happen again (yes, I was assuming that the ref was telling the truth).

And, yes, I am still trying to figure out how to boost sales.


Oh - and by the way - though I gave the visiting coaches my contact info, I have not heard from either.

Kikoprice

My point is, you cant make sales if you give your work away for free. It doesnt matter if they didnt purchase in the past, they know they can now get future photos from you for free. You cant boost sales if you devalue what you do.

The whole prep sports photography deal is a really tough way to make a buck, this just adds more reasons why its tough. We shoot Prep Sports for many different reasons, keeping the portfolio fresh, muscle memory, new techniques we want to try out, etc etc but the images are not given away for free. Some sort of compensation must change hands and that doesnt mean access to the games.

There is a great post on Sportshooter about this right now.

johng

Trying to save the sell-to-HS-athletes sales business is like trying to bail water off the Titanic with a paper cup. Every major paper will sell prints to parents. Heck - most prefer the cutout from the paper over a print. So, those parents who really want a playoff snap can get one. For the regular season there are a 1/2 dozen people taking photos and sharing them for free. So, while I agree that the OP isn't helping build sales by offering free photos to the opposing coach I still believe it wouldn't make a bit of difference to their sales if they didn't. There's just not enough sustainable income in most cities trying to sell action shots of HS athletes in the US. You're certainly not going to make enough money to make it worth while shooting on spec (shoot first and hope to get paid later). You're much better off doing school portraits and T&I (Team and Individual) - then shoot the action as part of your contract because you enjoy it. But too many of the people over at Sportsshooter are still trying to bail with paper cups - hoping against hope that no parent will be allowed near the field of play with a DSLR and that somehow the masses of people shooting these sports will stop giving away photos - when the majority of people simply love to shoot and just like the ego boost of people liking their photos - and if they can make $2,000 a year - great - that buys them a new lens. They stop after a couple years but there are 4 more parents to take their place.

Heck, have you seen photos from the Panasonic FZ200? Pretty nice stuff from a digicam. The titanic is sinking, paper cups won't help it. Move on to another ship.

JimKarczewski

My suggestion is to get the CIF rulebook or call the CIF directly and speak to someone. Indiana has a PDF on using flash.. long as it's off camera. If it's on camera you have to be in the corner, where the baseline and sidelines meet.

Anyone every complains I tell them, "hope your team doesn't make it to state, because they'll be using them there." But that doesn't help with an official...

patcad

http://www.cifstate.org/images/PDF/CIF_State_Media_Guidelines_2012-13_FINAL.pdf
The link someone gave me here (sorry can't remember who)
I keep a copy in my pack at all times now.
I think flash is mentioned on page 7

Hungry

thanks patcad - just what I needed. Are they applying these rules in the county? of course, the county tourney is over this weekend.

I shot 3 more games - and zero refs had a problem with the light. I expect to take my camera and a 70-200 at the games Friday and Saturday at SDSU with no light - I expect the floor will be well lit.

but hopefully, next week will present several home games and I will keep a copy of page 7 in my bag. But, based on this last week, the coaches have zero problem with the light off the ceiling.

thanks again.

Hungry

"The titanic is sinking, paper cups won't help it. Move on to another ship."

yep - that's my conclusion too as far as income goes.

Hungry

Kikoprice wrote: »

My point is, you cant make sales if you give your work away for free. It doesnt matter if they didnt purchase in the past, they know they can now get future photos from you for free. You cant boost sales if you devalue what you do.

The whole prep sports photography deal is a really tough way to make a buck, this just adds more reasons why its tough. We shoot Prep Sports for many different reasons, keeping the portfolio fresh, muscle memory, new techniques we want to try out, etc etc but the images are not given away for free. Some sort of compensation must change hands and that doesnt mean access to the games.

There is a great post on Sportshooter about this right now.

I guess we are prohibited from selling any images of any CIF playoff game according to page 7 of the CIF state rule book which says in part

The sale or resale of photography, digital image, videotape or film by CIF-credentialed media
using images from CIF Regional or State Championsh
ip events is prohibited without written permission
from the CIF and the payment of the applicable
rights fees to the CIF State Office.

Additionally, any sale or resale of photograph
y, digital image, videotape or film taken without a
media credential at CIF Regional or State Champion
ship events is prohibited without approval from the
CIF and the payment of the applicable rights fees.
Any photo, image or video taken without credentials
are subject to rights, if any, of all third par
ties, including the individuals photographed.


Very interesting. Can't sell with credentials - can't sell without credentials. Regional and State Championships - does that mean So. Cal and State? or does it apply to county. I guess I need to read.

Kikoprice

JohnG, Im putting on my life jacket. Bailing with 2 cups wasnt working, love the analogy.

Hungry, you can sell, you just need a CIF credential, approval, and to pay the fees.

ASkip

CIF championship shooting
Hi,
I have a media credential for CIF SDS and it says right on the back, no sales for commercial purposes. Plus I think it is kind of unlikely that you'll be able to take pictures at today's and tomorrow's CIF basketball championships from the floor. This year Max Preps is the official photographer and they do like to keep it so that it's just press or the official people shooting, at least from the court. This is true for all the CIF county championships I've been to. When it goes to state playoffs though, rules relax again, until Regionals, and then State. You need super special credentials for those.
For flash rules, just call the CIF office. I don't use flash so I don't know what the rules are. CIF people are nice.
Happy shooting.
Anna

Hungry

while I had no credentials today, I took my d3s and 70-200 and roamed freely in the stands - taking shots before during and after the d5 game from a variety of viewpoints. The Maxpreps guys were planted at the baselines - one with 3 bodies. While I had no intention of 'capturing the game', I was able to take shots freely - but I didn't try to get on the floor. The lighting at the college arena is much better than the high school where I normally shoot.

I will honor the Cif rule and not sell the photos. i just have not decided whether I make downloads available for free from my Smugmug site or simply allow people to see the boys in action in this venue without the option of purchasing photos. (I have no intention of paying fees to CIF).

JimKarczewski

Indiana doesn't allow commercial sales from the State finals only. From there only their "official" photographer, who really, REALLY sucks can sell images. And it's the same 2 photographers for every state final. I wonder who they're related to in the Indiana High School Athletic Association because to corner that market... as with most things, it all comes down to "how much $$$ do I get out of this"

ASkip

Hungry wrote: »

while I had no credentials today, I took my d3s and 70-200 and roamed freely in the stands - taking shots before during and after the d5 game from a variety of viewpoints. The Maxpreps guys were planted at the baselines - one with 3 bodies. While I had no intention of 'capturing the game', I was able to take shots freely - but I didn't try to get on the floor. The lighting at the college arena is much better than the high school where I normally shoot.

I will honor the Cif rule and not sell the photos. i just have not decided whether I make downloads available for free from my Smugmug site or simply allow people to see the boys in action in this venue without the option of purchasing photos. (I have no intention of paying fees to CIF).

Oh yeah, pictures from the stands is totally ok even at State. In fact one year, before I had a credential, I bought a VIP seat that's on the floor and took pictures from there. No one complained, though the people next to me had to listen to a lot of clicking. I just had an 85mm lens so not so obtrusive as the 70-200.
Have fun tomorrow if you're going.
Anna

JimKarczewski

ASkip wrote: »

Oh yeah, pictures from the stands is totally ok even at State. In fact one year, before I had a credential, I bought a VIP seat that's on the floor and took pictures from there. No one complained, though the people next to me had to listen to a lot of clicking. I just had an 85mm lens so not so obtrusive as the 70-200.
Have fun tomorrow if you're going.
Anna

Some places you would never make it in with a 70-200. Soldier Field, Lucas Oil Stadium, Conseco fieldhouse (the last 2 host stat finals) have a 6" limit on lenses. Unless you sneak in one of those cheap 70-300's and don't care about shooting 4.5-6.7q

BryDavis

CIF Photography at State Finals
I have a press pass and will be shooting for a local nespaper and just read the memo accomidating the pass for this week. It just happens that I work down the street from the Norther California CIF State office in Sacramento and popped in to ask the question regarding selling pictures taken at the State Basketball games.

Even if you have a Press pass the only Photographers that can sell pictures of the games is MaxPreps. There is no written approval or fees that can be paid to allow you to sell your pictures.

Pictures taken from the stands follow the same rules and rules are listed within the 2012-13 guidelines linked above.

Bow to the MaxPrep gods.

Hungry

BryDavis - that's what the Media guide says. FWIW, most people taking photos from the stands don't see that.

As to flash - my 'home school' has been fortunate to win - and win and win. They will play at the SoCal regionals this weekend - both boys and girls. So, all of the State Tournament games they have have been at home.
Being a little nervous about the rule about having off camera lighting pre approved by the local CIF office, I have been approaching the visiting coaches each game (2 double headers since the county tournament championships) to let them know I was using the light (and flashing it while they watch) and gave them my card with contact info and asked them to let me know if there was any problem. Result - no problems.
I also approached a couple refs (different refs for girls game than boys game) about it. They seemed to be concerned about not flashing during free throws. One of them seemed really surprised as they use "much stronger lights at the college level all the time" - so what's the big deal, was the attitude. But, for one ref at a girls game, there was a 'big deal'.

Good news - only one coach through it was a big deal

and, I am NOT offering the photos for sale - while I dislike the CIF state rule, I will comply.

Hungry

update - So Cal Championships
the Maxpreps shooter at the game tonite used two strobes mounted on a rail above one end of the court. He shot directly at the court.

So, I figured I had permission to use my einstein, which I lashed to the rail at the edge of the stands - with the battery pack. I bounced off the ceiling - no sweat. No concern by any of the three refs or the visiting coach. This game was at a neutral site.

for what ever it is worth - of course there were dozens of dslrs in the gym - and they all came out when it was time for the team pics on the floor . But, more distracting than the flash at court end, would have been the periodic flashes from the stands from many angles.

Home season is over. the team has one more game - In Sacramento.