B & W 10 Stop Filter

canon400d

Each time I use my B & W 10 Stop Filter on 5D Mk11 and 24 - 105 lens I have found that the colour cast is always the same. I have posted an image to show what I mean.
Is there any setting on the camera that can change this or is this the result of all the shots taken with a 10 Stop?
Thanks
Bob

superduckz

I can't speak for your camera and lens but on my nikon dx with the exact same filter there is ususlly some color casting but not to the degree of your image. When I was researching it this was a commonly mentioned complaint but considered correctible. Mine leans toward magenta but very minor. There were different casts mentioned for different cameras. Yours does seem strong.

David_S85

Those who shoot often with 9 and 10 stop filters shoot in RAW mode so white balance and color cast are non issues. Easily correctable that way.

canon400d

David_S85 wrote: »

Those who shoot often with 9 and 10 stop filters shoot in RAW mode so white balance and color cast are non issues. Easily correctable that way.

Hi David
I always shoot raw! I have tried the WB on AWB and Cloudy but the results are always the same.
I have posted another image it may not be quite as vivid but it is there.
I am quite concerned about this.

Cheers
Bob

pathfinder

Bob, try shooting a white towel or piece of paper through your 10 stop filter, and use that to white balance off of in Lightroom or ACR.

ziggy53

In this case, I suggest using a polarizing filter, lowest ISO possible, and taking a bunch of images at the slowest shutter speed that matches your intent (up to 20 exposures). Then use Photoshop to stack the images to blur them. Use this methodology:

http://www.pbase.com/merriwolf/high_speed_feathering

The primary advantage with this technique is that it should not affect color balance.

The primary disadvantage is that it's a lot of processing, and requires a pretty robust computer.

canon400d

pathfinder wrote: »

Bob, try shooting a white towel or piece of paper through your 10 stop filter, and use that to white balance off of in Lightroom or ACR.

Thanks Ziggy I will try this first so I take it I do the usual procedure in getting to Bulb. What shutter speed, Apperture and ISO would you recommend I use?
I use ACR CS5 when you say " use that to white balance off in ACR" What do I do exactly in ACR? Sorry for being a pain but you know me.
Cheers
Bob

JC

ziggy53 wrote: »

In this case, I suggest using a polarizing filter, lowest ISO possible, and taking a bunch of images at the slowest shutter speed that matches your intent (up to 20 exposures).....

With a polarizing filter he'd lose reflections in the water like in his first image a lot of time, wouldn't he? (assuming that the reflections were part of his intention, and that he'd want to keep them)

canon400d wrote: »

Thanks Ziggy I will try this first so I take it I do the usual procedure in getting to Bulb. What shutter speed, Apperture and ISO would you recommend I use?
I use ACR CS5 when you say " use that to white balance off in ACR" What do I do exactly in ACR? Sorry for being a pain but you know me.
Cheers
Bob

LIke any other photo, the image settings would depend on the situation, for images like this you want to start with the time required to get the amount of blur you want, then adjust the other settings to get the exposure you want.

For your second image, with the white buildings, you should have a 'pick white' or 'custom white balance' setting and an eye dropper tool of some sort under the white balance menu in your RAW converter of choice. Set your white balance to custom or 'pick white' and with the eye dropper tool click on the buildings that should be white.

I'd think that shooting a gray card, or a white towel or something before shooting your scene, as Pathfinder suggested, would get you what you want the easiest.

ziggy53

kolibri wrote: »

With a polarizing filter he'd lose reflections in the water like in his first image a lot of time, wouldn't he? (assuming that the reflections were part of his intention, and that he'd want to keep them) ...

That's a valid point. The answer is not so simple and "it depends".

It's best to compose the shot looking through the camera/lens with the polarizer attached, rotating the filter to see what effect it produces. You are looking to strike a pleasant balance between the effect on the sky and on the water. The polarizer should have less effect on water foam and peaks in the water, but the angle of the polarizer will also affect the outcome.

Here is a page demonstrating the difference that a polarizer makes on moving water.

For relatively calm water you may, or may not, wish to use a polarizing filter. Until you gain some experience I suggest just trying one to see the effect it has, and whether it's appropriate.

canon400d

ziggy53 wrote: »

That's a valid point. The answer is not so simple and "it depends".

It's best to compose the shot looking through the camera/lens with the polarizer attached, rotating the filter to see what effect it produces. You are looking to strike a pleasant balance between the effect on the sky and on the water. The polarizer should have less effect on water foam and peaks in the water, but the angle of the polarizer will also affect the outcome.

Here is a page demonstrating the difference that a polarizer makes on moving water.

For relatively calm water you may, or may not, wish to use a polarizing filter. Until you gain some experience I suggest just trying one to see the effect it has, and whether it's appropriate.

Is the link missing for this page Ziggy? Here is a page demonstrating the difference that a polarizer makes on moving water.

canon400d

canon400d wrote: »

Is the link missing for this page Ziggy? Here is a page demonstrating the difference that a polarizer makes on moving water.

I have tried using the WB tool in ACR and I am pleased with the results which appears more satisfactory in both of the images which I have posted for you to look and comment on.
Thanks
Bob
1

2

ziggy53

canon400d wrote: »

Is the link missing for this page Ziggy? Here is a page demonstrating the difference that a polarizer makes on moving water.

Sorry, trying to multi-task (... and failed).

Here's the link showing the use of a polarizing filter on moving water, http://photo-tips-online.com/tip/moving-water-photography-techniques/

canon400d

ziggy53 wrote: »

Sorry, trying to multi-task (... and failed).

Here's the link showing the use of a polarizing filter on moving water, http://photo-tips-online.com/tip/moving-water-photography-techniques/

Thanks Ziggy that's brilliant. I must get one. I will go for the Lee polarizer as their filters are ace. Can I use a Lee Polarizer with a B&W 10 Stop because the 10 stop is a screw on?
Please, you have not failed!!! Can I ask you what you think about the last two images having used the white balance tool in ACR. This is probably the answer or the way around this colour cast problem I have been experiencing.
Bob

ziggy53

canon400d wrote: »

Thanks Ziggy that's brilliant. I must get one. I will go for the Lee polarizer as their filters are ace. Can I use a Lee Polarizer with a B&W 10 Stop because the 10 stop is a screw on? ...

You probably don't want to use the 10-stop ND filter with this image stacking technique from my post at #6 above. Since the ND filter you have is throwing your color balance off, this blended multi-exposure technique is a way around that problem. It is a lot more work in post-production and requires multiple layers composited together in Photoshop.

A circular polarizer is a valuable accessory in any shooter's kit. A very reasonably priced screw-on polarizing filter with fairly decent quality* is the "AGFA Digital Multi-Coated Circular Polarizing (CPL)", available through Amazon. It yields better image quality than a much, much more expensive Mitsumi CPL, especially in the edges and corners.

(Be sure to choose the correct size for the lens[es] you will be using.)

http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss?url=search-alias%3Delectronics&field-keywords=AGFA+Digital+Multi-Coated+Circular+Polarizing+%28CPL%29

canon400d wrote: »

... Can I ask you what you think about the last two images having used the white balance tool in ACR. This is probably the answer or the way around this colour cast problem I have been experiencing.
Bob

These are improved over the originals. Since you experienced the scene and you know what colors you wish, trust your own instincts.

I think that what you are experiencing is a "color shift" from the 10-stop ND filter which white balance (WB) alone cannot correct, but WB (including auto-WB) gets you closer.

---

*(The truth is I'm not truly happy with any polarizing filter, but the AGFA CPL is pretty good and a steal for what they ask.)

Matej Michalik Fine Art

The colour shift using such a strong filters is normal. I am a long exposure fan - I used B+W 110 ND quite a lot and there was always strong color shift.

Now I shoot with the LEE Big stopper and there is colour shift too. But it is possible to correct this, but you must master the Photoshop techniques a lot. I have already red a few articles from some long exposure photographers which are shooting with big stopper and have very good results - they manually select the white balance to xxx kelvins, this is what you must try for yourself - try to increase kelvins.

With B+W i don't think you will get very good results in colour, Big stopper is better.

Regarding the first picture, can you put here the EXIF of your photograph? The image is quite poor quality, you can see it on the water.

Do you cover your viewfinder while you are shooting?

canon400d

Matej Michalik Fine Art wrote: »

The colour shift using such a strong filters is normal. I am a long exposure fan - I used B+W 110 ND quite a lot and there was always strong color shift.

Now I shoot with the LEE Big stopper and there is colour shift too. But it is possible to correct this, but you must master the Photoshop techniques a lot. I have already red a few articles from some long exposure photographers which are shooting with big stopper and have very good results - they manually select the white balance to xxx kelvins, this is what you must try for yourself - try to increase kelvins.

With B+W i don't think you will get very good results in colour, Big stopper is better.

Regarding the first picture, can you put here the EXIF of your photograph? The image is quite poor quality, you can see it on the water.

Do you cover your viewfinder while you are shooting?

Hi Matej,
First of all the B & W ND is a 10 Stop which I have been using. I didn't know there was a B & W 110. I do use Lee grad filters which are brilliant.
Can you please tell me how I go about manually selecting white balance to XXX Kelvins on my 5D Mk 11. Also how do I increase Kelvins?
Here is the Exif:-
Sub Information
ExposureTime : 61.00Sec
FNumber : F14.0
ISOSpeedRatings : 100
ExifVersion : 0221
DateTimeOriginal : 2013:03:01 07:29:20
DateTimeDigitized : 2013:03:01 07:29:20
ShutterSpeedValue : 61.00Sec
ApertureValue : F14.0
ExposureBiasValue : EV0.0
MaxApertureValue : F4.0
SubjectDistance : -1.00(m)
Flash : Not fired(Compulsory)
FocalLength : 65.00(mm)
ExifImageWidth : 1024
ExifImageHeight : 648
ExposureMode : Auto
WhiteBalance : Manual
SceneCaptureType : Standard
I always make sure the view finder is covered throughout the exposure time.
I really appreciate your kind help.
Thanks
Bob

canon400d

ziggy53 wrote: »

You probably don't want to use the 10-stop ND filter with this image stacking technique from my post at #6 above. Since the ND filter you have is throwing your color balance off, this blended multi-exposure technique is a way around that problem. It is a lot more work in post-production and requires multiple layers composited together in Photoshop.

A circular polarizer is a valuable accessory in any shooter's kit. A very reasonably priced screw-on polarizing filter with fairly decent quality* is the "AGFA Digital Multi-Coated Circular Polarizing (CPL)", available through Amazon. It yields better image quality than a much, much more expensive Mitsumi CPL, especially in the edges and corners.

(Be sure to choose the correct size for the lens[es] you will be using.)

http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss?url=search-alias%3Delectronics&field-keywords=AGFA+Digital+Multi-Coated+Circular+Polarizing+%28CPL%29



These are improved over the originals. Since you experienced the scene and you know what colors you wish, trust your own instincts.

I think that what you are experiencing is a "color shift" from the 10-stop ND filter which white balance (WB) alone cannot correct, but WB (including auto-WB) gets you closer.

---

*(The truth is I'm not truly happy with any polarizing filter, but the AGFA CPL is pretty good and a steal for what they ask.)

Thanks again Ziggy for your kind help. There weren't any AGFA 77mm in stock in the Amazon UK so I have ordered it through the link you sent me. In all it is costing £30 including shipping and tax. A Lee polarizor was going to cost me £130. What a saving!!! I will come across and buy you a pint!!!
Cheers
Bob

ziggy53

canon400d wrote: »

... Can you please tell me how I go about manually selecting white balance to XXX Kelvins on my 5D Mk 11. Also how do I increase Kelvins?

Very quickly, different light sources have different "color temperatures", expressed in degrees Kelvin, often abbreviated as "xxxxK" (where the xxxx is some number).

For instance, here is a simple chart with estimated color temperature values for many common light sources:


(From this page: http://www.3drender.com/glossary/colortemp.htm)

Since you shoot in RAW (... and I highly recommend continuing to shoot to RAW files), you have the option to defer the color temperature setting, which is part of the White Balance (WB) setting, in your RAW conversion (using ACR, Adobe Camera Raw). ACR is that component of Photoshop software used for RAW conversion.

In addition to the color temperature, there may be a tint offset value, which you can apply in the ACR WB panel. You may use either the WB selection tool within ACR, or allow ACR to auto-adjust WB settings.

Once you have selected WB for your image, there should be a color temperature readout for the image, again it will be expressed in degrees Kelvin and abbreviated as "xxxx" in the "Temperature" readout of ACR. There is also a slider allowing you to manually adjust the color temperature. Moving the slider to the right will make the image more red (warmer), and moving the slider left will make the image more blue (cooler).

Adobe covers this in more detail here:

http://helpx.adobe.com/creative-suite/using/make-color-tonal-adjustments-camera.html

canon400d

ziggy53 wrote: »

Very quickly, different light sources have different "color temperatures", expressed in degrees Kelvin, often abbreviated as "xxxxK" (where the xxxx is some number).

For instance, here is a simple chart with estimated color temperature values for many common light sources:


(From this page: http://www.3drender.com/glossary/colortemp.htm)

Since you shoot in RAW (... and I highly recommend continuing to shoot to RAW files), you have the option to defer the color temperature setting, which is part of the White Balance (WB) setting, in your RAW conversion (using ACR, Adobe Camera Raw). ACR is that component of Photoshop software used for RAW conversion.

In addition to the color temperature, there may be a tint offset value, which you can apply in the ACR WB panel. You may use either the WB selection tool within ACR, or allow ACR to auto-adjust WB settings.

Once you have selected WB for your image, there should be a color temperature readout for the image, again it will be expressed in degrees Kelvin and abbreviated as "xxxx" in the "Temperature" readout of ACR. There is also a slider allowing you to manually adjust the color temperature. Moving the slider to the right will make the image more red (warmer), and moving the slider left will make the image more blue (cooler).

Adobe covers this in more detail here:

http://helpx.adobe.com/creative-suite/using/make-color-tonal-adjustments-camera.html

I really appreciate you explaining this for me Ziggy and I am sure others will find it very iseful too.
Thanks for the link I will study it as it appears quite involved.
Thanks again
Bob