My thoughts on pricing
Wiren
Registered Users Posts: 741 Major grins
These are current thoughts and subject to change... chime in if you desire.
I have been shooting for several years, mostly landscape. I have submitted to an Art Gallery and am hopeful for acceptance.... I have been printing recently directly through Bay Roes and doing Float Mounted Metal Prints in a Wood wedge frame.... also using the Sheere Matte finish... looks quite classy!
On thinking of pricing it gets complicated... my first thought is that galleries primarily want one off's, like in paintings. They don't want photogs that will sell millions of the same print. With that thought in mind, I decided to do Limited Edition prints (which I was originally against).
So.... how do I figure my pricing.... that depends... what should I expect to make off of each photograph? The first answer is "as much as you can" - but in this respect, it needs to be a finite amount. Due to customer base, demographic regions, time and effort of each photograph, I can reasonably desire around $5,000. Why that # you ask? Let me explain......
The following is an example of one of my better prints - Pastel Dawn (as seen here)
- Obtaining image required 5 trips to location
- 45 miles one way x 5 trips equated to 10 hours of driving (rounded) and about $88 in gas (avg gas at $3.50 gallon at about 20mpg).
- At least 5 hours in Post Processing (give or take, trying different versions and tweaking)
- At least 5 hours in marketing the image (If I haven't hit it yet, I will soon and may exceed)
- I would like to pay myself at least $50/hour... that's a total of 20 hours for a total of $1,000
The Gallery takes a 25% commission on sales and printing a Float Mounted Metal Print with Sheere Matte finish in a wedge wood frame costs $355.00 + $14.50 s/h.
Figuring that I want to be around $5,000 total profit for this image, I need to price this at $1850.00
The breakdown?
$ 1850.00 - Gallery fee of $ 462.50, - Print/ship fee of $369.50 = $1018... x 5 prints = $5090.00
If I produce and sell between 6 to 12 images per year at 5K per image (that means I am selling between 30 to 60 prints per year), I make a total profit between $30K -60K per year on my images. Certainly I would like to sell more than this and will work to produce enough imagery to do so... but I think that as a part time job... these numbers are realistcaly more than I can hope for.... but obtainable.
My thoughts are... at about a total out of pocket cost (at $50/hr), obtaining the image has me at a cost of $1450 (averaged).... I decided I want to make a litle more than 3 times the cost. This pays for the cost of obtaining the image, the cost of producing a similar image and pocketable profit. Kind of like restaruant pricing, no?
as stated above, this line of thinking is subject to change, but it's where my mind is at the moment as I try to justify to myself what I should make for each image... your mileage may vary.
Lee
I have been shooting for several years, mostly landscape. I have submitted to an Art Gallery and am hopeful for acceptance.... I have been printing recently directly through Bay Roes and doing Float Mounted Metal Prints in a Wood wedge frame.... also using the Sheere Matte finish... looks quite classy!
On thinking of pricing it gets complicated... my first thought is that galleries primarily want one off's, like in paintings. They don't want photogs that will sell millions of the same print. With that thought in mind, I decided to do Limited Edition prints (which I was originally against).
So.... how do I figure my pricing.... that depends... what should I expect to make off of each photograph? The first answer is "as much as you can" - but in this respect, it needs to be a finite amount. Due to customer base, demographic regions, time and effort of each photograph, I can reasonably desire around $5,000. Why that # you ask? Let me explain......
The following is an example of one of my better prints - Pastel Dawn (as seen here)
- Obtaining image required 5 trips to location
- 45 miles one way x 5 trips equated to 10 hours of driving (rounded) and about $88 in gas (avg gas at $3.50 gallon at about 20mpg).
- At least 5 hours in Post Processing (give or take, trying different versions and tweaking)
- At least 5 hours in marketing the image (If I haven't hit it yet, I will soon and may exceed)
- I would like to pay myself at least $50/hour... that's a total of 20 hours for a total of $1,000
The Gallery takes a 25% commission on sales and printing a Float Mounted Metal Print with Sheere Matte finish in a wedge wood frame costs $355.00 + $14.50 s/h.
Figuring that I want to be around $5,000 total profit for this image, I need to price this at $1850.00
The breakdown?
$ 1850.00 - Gallery fee of $ 462.50, - Print/ship fee of $369.50 = $1018... x 5 prints = $5090.00
If I produce and sell between 6 to 12 images per year at 5K per image (that means I am selling between 30 to 60 prints per year), I make a total profit between $30K -60K per year on my images. Certainly I would like to sell more than this and will work to produce enough imagery to do so... but I think that as a part time job... these numbers are realistcaly more than I can hope for.... but obtainable.
My thoughts are... at about a total out of pocket cost (at $50/hr), obtaining the image has me at a cost of $1450 (averaged).... I decided I want to make a litle more than 3 times the cost. This pays for the cost of obtaining the image, the cost of producing a similar image and pocketable profit. Kind of like restaruant pricing, no?
as stated above, this line of thinking is subject to change, but it's where my mind is at the moment as I try to justify to myself what I should make for each image... your mileage may vary.
Lee
Lee Wiren
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In a market like this, I reckon a substantial price adds value and worth to the product conceptually as well as financially and makes it more appealing to the buyer as having credibility as a collectors piece.
Over the years I have seen lots of things that seem to be held in regard by nothing more than the asking price itself and along with a bit of savvy marketing has allowed them to sell well. With a quality product and marketed to a select audience, I think you are infinitely better off than trying to price yourself at the mass market and getting caught up with everyone else doing the same.
I think your cost is somewhat irrelevant in this case other than covering it but there need to be no justification of what you charge. As an artwork I think your cost price is irrelevant once you make your money back. After that the sky is the limit and only governed by what you can get. Again I think you are actually better off going for the high end of the market and giving your work some status and credibility than selling to the mass market in higher volume at lower prices.
Going for the high end of the market I think is also a much wiser long term proposition. I think you have a better chance of seeing your future work to those that have invested significant sums rather than those that basicaly made an impulse buy because the money was insignificant. From there you have a much better chance at establishing yourself as a creditable " professional" artist who's work will be revered and taken seriously.
I have never looked at this market so I could be talking complete and utter shite but if I were going into this market, I'd certainly be aiming at a very similar price point.
In everything else I have done I have always gone for the high side of the market and have never seen that as a bad decision.
Good luck with it, I hope it all goes well and profitably for you.
Hi Wiren,
I always find it a bit confusing when photographers (or any business person) tried to figure out their pricing based on how much work it takes them to produce a product.
A customer doesn't care how much effort a "thing" takes to create.
They care about how much perceived value it provides them --- and that is largely determined by how the thing is marketed and sold to them.
That said, from a business perspective, it's very wise to have done the math you did to know where your "break even" point is and where, relative to that, you want the thing sold.
But it is really the market that will determine your price point --- not the number of hours it took for you to create the thing.
Like Glort, I think it's great that you are aiming to target the higher-end market. And it looks like you've got the work to back it up.........
Good luck!
www.photographyontheside.com [My blog about creating a part-time photography business]
Create A Gorgeous Photography Website with Smugmug in 90 Minutes [My free course if you need help setting up and customizing your SmugMug site]
Agreed. It could take you $6000 to fly to Africa to shoot a lion that an African could shoot for the cost of gas to drive over there. As I buyer, I don't care what your expenses are.
How far is the gallery? Youll have to pay for the print to go to them if they sell one.
And why limit it to 5 limited editions? There is an artist that does interesting work and she shared how she deals with this, I forget the exact details but she offers her prints in 3 or 5 sizes, the larger it gets the fewer prints are made. for example at 12x12 she may offer 20, 16x16 she may offer 15, 20x20 perhaps 10, 30x30 maybe 5. The price goes up drastically for each one. The largest are something like $5k? just a guess. Its been a while since I seen the figures.
Do you hav ea contract with the gallery? Does it state they have to open any packages they receive from you within x time *so if there is a problem it can be dealt with the shipping company* and that they assume financial responsibility for the work *if it gets lost or damaged its not on you*. And does it state how long they have to show it for? Any less and they have to pay you a fixed amount per month for possible sales loss?
Also with the limited editions you can still sell digital/wallpapers, greeting cards, commercial licensing, calendars, and you can have an artist edition as well that doesnt count.
this is all according to that photographer/artist.
Its really simple. As a business you need to know how much it costs you to produce something and what your desired price is. Period. After that you figure out what people are willing to pay. If what they are willing to pay is not greater than your desired price then you don't enter that aspect of the business. The customer doesn't care how much something takes to create but the business person sure does!
A former sports shooter
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The difference between a hobby and a business
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i'll give a non-photography example. I've worked at 3 semiconductor companies (TI, Motorola, AMD) and now at Apple. Want to know how AMD prices a new CPU? They analyze exactly how much it costs to produce that CPU. R&D expenses, wafer fabrication expenses, expenses due to yield (how many CPU die are not functional on a wafer), packaging costs, shipping, etc. After they know exactly how much its going to cost to produce a CPU they then determine a price based on the amount of profit they want to make.
And this point they've never asked how much YOU are willing to pay for that CPU.
Now the market steps in and either buys it or not. Pricing will be adjusted based on demand (or lack thereof).
This is obviously a simplified view. The pricing equation actually gets estimated early on in the design process, because if the estimated costs for a future product are higher than the estimated price the customer will pay they won't even both moving forward with the project in the first place. (analogy here, in orljustin's case, the would result in me not taking the trip to Africa in the first place to capture a photo of a lion that people aren't willing to spend enough on to make a profit for me). But I guarantee you, every successful business out there takes into account how much it takes to create their product or service as part of the pricing equation.
You cannot run a business if all you do is price according to what the customer will pay. You must know your costs, because its the only way to guide you towards a PROFITABLE business.
A former sports shooter
Follow me at: https://www.flickr.com/photos/bjurasz/
My Etsy store: https://www.etsy.com/shop/mercphoto?ref=hdr_shop_menu
The Gallery is less than a mile away from my house... so when I need to put something in the Gallery, I will just order it in. And I am figuring shipping fees that I incur into my cost calculations so taht I have a full picture
As for your 2nd paragraph, I have been dwelling on that issue also. See this link; http://www.prismaticimagery.com/limited-editions/monochrome-view-2/ is an image where i've done just what you describe... i'm getting there, slowly but surely.
I have contact with the gallery as it is local and I have just become a member by jury selection. I will debut 1 piece in July and have a chance to add more in August.... It is a small gallery with 32 other members. There is no statement of how long they have to show it, only that I can only have the same print up for a limit of 4 months...
As far as postcards, digital prints, calendars, etc.... I don't sell those (even when I try to). Those things just don't fly and it's a whole lot of effort to try to get them to sell that I would rather put elsewhere. I have not met anybody else that makes a good amount of money from selling digital copies of their photos, or postcards and calendars.....
The Gallery contract is that membership is $300 per year and they get 25% from all sales AND that I put in at least 2 four hour shifts at the gallery... it is a Non-Profit 501c business and does not employee anybody, so the doors stay open by effort of it's members.
It may not be the most impressive of galleries, but it's a start for me.
Cheers.
I stopped at Mountain Light Gallery one time. It's was Gailen Rowell's and his kids have it now. This guy was great and some of the stuff he has in there is incredible. Nothing sells for any where near what your talking. I looked at Clyde Butcher's site and he has 46x60 prints matted and framed for $5500. How big a market can there be for that size a photo? The photo itself is 37x51". He does his own photography, film. He process's his own film and print's his own photo's. I think I read on his site in the past that he also has his own framing shop. Clyde Butcher doesn't give anything up to Ansel Adams!
If I was to assume that that price was realistic, there's only so much market for that expensive a product and as I understand it, the player's are pretty well identified right now, you have to break in first. How the stuff get's priced is beyond me. I see where some charge x dollars just for printing. I try to figure it out by the sq inch but I don't sell a lot nor do I try very hard.
The price range for prints in limited editions of 10 to 15, is between $150 - $500 for the print only (size 11x14 to 16x20).
For open editions, I see $40 - $90 in the vanity galleries.
Framing is priced separately which can range $50 to $500 for a 20"x24".
Just a reference point.
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I look at it this way... nobody buys online... if so, it's a rarity. Selling matted prints at markets is, at least in my area, a break even if only slightly profitable and not worth the time and effort.
The prints I am doing are the float mounted metal prints with a wooden frame.... for the most part, a 16x20 through Bay Roes on this nice piece or art is going to run you about $300 all shipped and done.... Gallery is going to take their commission... mine takes 25% (I know different galleries vary). So.... to make any $$ at all, it's going to have to be priced higher than a paper print folks... it is metal after all.
Yes, I agree that it's hard to argue high prices... but, art is... well, art. I guess a lot of my pricing is based on how I feel about the shot and my breakdown of the prices are my justification of the high $$ figure. But all said and done, I don't expect to sell 10,000 of each and every print... I think folks who think they will do so are naive to the realities of the market.... and the fickleness of their customers. Being that I will only sell a few of each one (realisticaly) and I only need to get the right shot in front of the right buyer, the difference between a framed paper print for $700 or a more durable and unique framed float mounted metal print at $1750.00 (or whatever I price it at) will be negligable - if the customer wants it, and can afford it, they won't care what price they pay for it.
I can at least try to reason out the method to my madness when trying to figure my price point for a certain shot printed in this fashion..... and if it makes me feel more confident asking that price, all the better.
I may be a fool for asking the prices that I am currently and people may be right in telling me that i'm deluded if I think i'll ever get anything sold, but I haven't found anything else that works and if I get a few customers to pay my prices... i'll be back to say "I told you so"... if not, i'll tip my hat, tell you I was wrong and keep looking for the best way to price things......
Thanks for the responses... it continues to make me challenge the way I think about pricing..... I tend to feel it's a lot about timing in the market, geographical locale, as well as having great shots to show.... prints just don't seem to sell themselves, it takes quite a bit of work..... but it sure is fun work.
Cheers.
The thing I have found is shooters tend not to be big money earners and think everyone else is at the lower end of the income scale like them so price their work to what they could afford not what others could. I have always given my customers a range of packages and pricing to choose from and always the coverages towards the higher end of the scale have outsold the ones towards the lower end. I always try to put in a Killer package at the high end and while I haven't sold thousands of them, I have certainly sold enough to boost the overall returns from every job VERY nicely.
There seems to be a thing of price and amount you can sell. Basically I say, Who cares?
This isn't going to put you in the poor house if it doesn't go as you want. if you sell a couple of prints you'll cover yourself and probably be in profit for the exercise and learn a lot as well.
As far as qty and price goes, They didn't have any trouble shifting 300 Bugatti Veyrons priced at over $1M each and one could argue that's just a car and how many people could afford one? The was there were enough people, more than enough in fact so the rest was irrelevant.
A friend of mine buys his Girlfriend $600 designer jeans. Looking over them I couldn't see anything special about the things. I asked him why he pays $600 for them? His reply, "Her arse looks great in them!".
There are all sorts of reasons people buy stuff and pay the price but at the end of the day it really comes down to the fact they want it and like it. Everything else, including price, pales into oblivion.
You are not aiming at a mass market product and while your market may be limited, your competition is limited even more so. That's something I have learned as well. eliminating the competition so it's a all of them or me choice is a very good way to go.
An old friend visited me on the weekend who is in line to crack $500K from his sales rep position this calendar year. When talking of his success he told my wife the main thing was something I taught him over 10 years ago that he uses daily.
I told him that the only way to win at negotiations is to be prepared to loose and walk away with nothing.
He said that one thing has allowed him to bring in some of the biggest deals ever done by his company and win them from companies that his firm have been trying to win and had multiple people try to get over the line sometimes for years.
I think that applies here.
You have set our price, established your very clear market and if it doesn't work, tough luck.
Personally I think you have adopted one of the smartest marketing strategies I have seen in a while by any shooter and I also think you will be coming back to say I told you so and I look forward to that.
Even if it doesn't fly for some reason, I think you are a lot smarter for trying to go this way than the same old crap of sticking pictures on smutgut and offering digital downloads for $5 ea. That's been proven to be about as useless as tits on a bull so at least you have the smarts and guts to try something new and not go down the old hopeless path.
Good luck with it Lee. I still think you are going the right way and I look forward to hearing how it has paid off for you.
Yes and no. IMO, an artistic endeavour like photography just can't support the same thing kind of cost analysis as a more nuts-and-bolts kind of product (particularly one that might be mass produced).
As a professional musician, the fees I am paid assume that, in my own time, without any additional payment, I will learn, coach and practice the music I am hired to sing. I don't break it down to $-per-note, $ per hour of practice, or by how much I spent up-front to go coach it so it would be ready for rehearsals, or by how much the scores cost me to buy so I could learn the music. If I want to get hired and taken seriously? I have to do those things. It's a cost of doing business; the fee (whatever it may be, and these days fees across the board have substantially dropped) is what it is, and it's my responsibility to ensure I am ready to do the job when it starts, whatever it personally costs me.
Coming from that environment - and I am not a hobbyist, but a full time professional singer paying my mortgage and grocery bills with my voice - I find it impossible to subject my photography (which is not "full time" but at this point more than a hobby, and now contributing to my paying the mortgage) to cost/profit breakdowns either. I charge a fair price in my market for my time and any products the client may purchase through me; streamlining my time and workflow to maximise profit-per-hour is my problem, not the client's.
All of that said, I DO think there's a place for fine art/couture photography, and that one CAN charge more for a certain kind of art/experience. A one-off piece of art is something special. However, I also think it's all too easy to artificially create "value" by putting a higher price tag on something just to make it "seem" more desirable. I fully realise this is a standard marketing technique for luxury items; I understand the theory - and there's plenty of evidence out there to support that it works - but it kind of bugs me!!! I don't like being manipulated
Just my 2c.
People always equate value with price. When was the last time you saw a commercial for a Bugatti, Ferrari, Lamborghini, Bombardier, Dassault or any top luxury brand? Then think about all the commercials you've seen for Ford, Toyota or Honda. Once something is determined to be a luxury, (Corvette, Viper, etc) the marketing changes. It is not put out to the masses because the masses are irrelevant in the buying process. Art is a luxury and for those who think otherwise end up being starving artists.
Marketing trumps talent every time. Make a name and you can charge what you want to charge. If you don't live in a better market, go to the better market. Fine art photography here in the SF area sells for many thousands of dollars although the sales are fewer and farther between.
Personally I believe that there are better streams of revenue in photography than fine art, but never forget it begins and ends with marketing.
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I understand the principles, and fully realise that many people respond to "if it costs more it MUST be better", but I typically spot it, and usually shy away from it. YMMV.
Sorry - this is now moving a bit beyond the OP's question, but I don't think it's completely irrelevant when thinking these things through
PS Is there any kind of artist OTHER than the starving kind? I'm not being facetious here, but (and I accept it's not always true, but often enough to make it worth mentiong): when people shift their attention from product (starving artist) to marketing (luxury/high end)... the pursuit of MONEY tends to become more of a motivator than the pursuit of ART. Food for thought, there..............
I think you are on the right track with your pricing. I like that you've decided to market your work as "fine art" and are spending the money for quality materials and a gallery presentation (you are right that on-line sales of fine art are virtually nil.)
I've read many articles, talked to folks in-the-know at seminars/schools etc, and one thing that I've learned (which is a foreign concept to me and most of us on the planet) is that there are buyers out there that look at the price of a piece and make a quick decision as to whether they will consider buying it...this decision happens too quickly for the observer (you) to notice. If the price is too low, they move on. If the price is what they see as necessary for a QUALITY item--such as your wood-framed metal prints--then they decide whether they like the image itself, wether it would go well over the couch, etc. This is the type of buyer you are hoping to attract so that you can sell a few pieces at a nice profit instead of many pieces at a lower profit.
I highly recommend the book "Marketing Fine Art Photography" by Alain Briot. He talks about the pricing concept above, as well as having a "masterpiece". This might work for you in your gallery space. Alain says, "A "masterpiece" is a piece that is so large, so impressive, and so outrageously priced that nobody who thinks clearly would buy it. If someone does buy it then you need to immediately raise the price of the next masterpiece because this is not supposed to happen. When compared to your masterpiece, all your other pieces will seem inexpensive."
Wishing you the best of luck in your sales!
www.ArtMorganFineArt.com
Mass production has nothing to do whatsoever with what I was talking about. And yes, cost analysis can come into an artistic endeavor IF you are trying to be a profitable business of that artistic endeavor. If you don't make at least as much as what it costs to produce you will go out of business. "Art" does not change this fact. Now, hopefully, if it is truly great are you make much, much more than the cost of producing that art.
Let me ask you a quick question. Do you think Apple (my employer) simply says that research and development and investigating new products or software that end up not seeing the light of day are just part of the cost of doing business and it is not factored into the price of any of our products? Or that sending me, an engineer employed by them, to seminars and training classes and such is not factored into the price of the products we well?
A former sports shooter
Follow me at: https://www.flickr.com/photos/bjurasz/
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Btw, this particular point is one of the HARDEST things for people outside the business (eg parents of aispiring singers) who haven't experienced it personally to accept; just like you, they are incredulous that any career which demands 2-3 degrees and 10+ years of post-graduate "apprenticeship" can have such a low profit margin!! I'm here to say... yup. It's true. You have to be pretty crazy to put up with it, but plenty of us do....
This is an article about the acting profession in Britain. While this references British fees - much lower than, for instance, Hollywood or American TV, (which is one of the reasons so many British actors have crossed the pond!), the gist of the article is exactly my own experience as a musician.
Again, this is all tangential to pricing a fine art photograph, but it does serve to demonstrate (I hope) that not everything follows the corporate model and that even many working at the most respected levels can still be "starving artists"............... I definitely come at this from a different point of view than many, and I realise that. I'm not saying I'm "right", simply offering my alternative world view as food for thought (or perhaps a glimpse into "how the other half lives"
That may bug you but what chits me to tears is people applying a consumer mentality to business.
Photographers have this insane proclivity to NOT making good business practices and applying them.
YOU may want to give your money away to other people by not charging all you can for your work but that's not everyones goal. It certainly isn't mine.
I think Lee's attitude and initiative is like a breath of fresh air and something that will bring him to the top of the heap credibly and financially. Like I say, you seem to have the attitude most shooters do and assume that because you don't have money to buy expensive wall art that others don't either.
Of course you wouldn't be prepared to pay what Lee or any other Shooter charging a similar price would ask. You are in the trade, know what the markup is and you'd go shoot your own if you wanted something like that. My father is in the car game and he wouldn't pay what he sells cars and parts for because 1, there would be no profit in it for him and 2, he can get cars and parts much cheaper than the public whom aren't in the trade.
Same as his plumber mate. He doesn't go buy sinks and bathroom fittings for what he sells them for or what retail places charge so why would a shooter pay retail for a Photo?
I know damn well that a Jeweler wouldn't pay for another Jewelers designs but women come in and pay HUGELY marked up prices on the things they make. If you look at the time, cost of materials and even skill where you could have the same piece Made OS with even better stones, the price bears no resemblance to actual worth.
Never stopped any woman I ever heard of buying something because they say " I know it's expensive but I love it and just had to have it. "
I bet we have all bought things like that though because it's an emotional not rational buying decision.
And that's the market Lee is wisely going for.
If you don't like being " Manipulated" as you put it, then you have the option to stick to run of the mill mass market products as does everyone else. When there are options, especially the Opt out one, I see it as purely free will and there is no manipulation at all.
I have just got to re acquaint with my father and its a real lesson. He's certainly not rich but he has a very different attitude to me. He makes good money and he's not afraid to spend it.
He's very much a quality buyer. Everything he has is a GOOD brand. He doesn't baulk for a sec at paying top dollar for a top product but he won't even think for a second about buying cheap for 10th the price. He's just not interested. Even if he thinks something may be just as good, to him it's not worth the risk of buying something to find out it is crap, having to take it back or stuff around having it repaired, being with out it ... whatever. He figures get the best and he doesn't have to worry.
Now if he came across one of Lees pics and he liked it, he'd buy it. It's that simple. To him it would be that's the price, what are you going to do, go buy a camera and learn how to take a pic like that and hope you are in the right place at the right time? He'd laugh and say he wants to be sitting on his backside looking at it and enjoying it not stuffing around trying to produce it.
Like I say, he's not rich, wasn't born with a silver spoon and has done it pretty hard well into his 50's but now he has some money to be comfortable his attitude is You can't take it with you and he wants to enjoy himself while he can.
As a business person, he's a damn sight better target than me who generally does buy at the cheaper end of the scale. Force of habit. I don't NEED to as much as I not long ago did but, I'm a hell of a lot tighter than the old man.
Again though, it comes down to what a person wants.
I have got into collecting old Diesel stationary engines over the last couple of years.
Now you couldn't GIVE one of those to the old fella and he constantly ribs me about them but on the other hand, If you came along with the right machine and I had the money, would not be a problem cleaning out the bank account to get it. I'll make more money down the track but an opportunity for the right engine may never come along again so while the getting is good, I'll grab it.
Now like everything else, there are some engines that have a kind of standard value because there are plenty around and for sale so market dictates price level. Then there are other things that aren't so common nor so special but people just like them for the look or sound or a memory of the one the one their dad had on the farm when they were kids and people will pay pretty much whatever they can to own them.
I'm not trying to target your comments personally but rather the sentiment generally which is very prevalent amongst shooters. Artists seem to make crap business people overall IMHO.
You wouldn't see the guy in the corner shop saying " I just want to make enough to cover my time" he wants to make all he can so he can retire early, spoil the kids or grandkids etc. Go into most corner shops and you'll see this by paying twice what the supermarket charges and the supermarket is making Millions/ billions as well.
I think " photographers" who are not out to maximise their returns on their time effort and costs are really hobbyists rather than real business people and fail to see that and the differences that apply.
People are always free to set their own pricing levels but the ones that seem more interested in profit often get looked down at by those with more altruistic motives.
Each to their own!
Again, this is not a personal comment, it is a comment on the train of thought which is popular.
Glort, I will respond at length to your points, since I want to clarify what I've been saying with a little more background; I think you'll find we agree more than we don't.
I CERTAINLY agree with you that more artists need to think like business-people - this is a conversation that musicians have to have too, and something MANY of us out there "in the trenches" are lobbying to include as part of undergraduate degrees so those just starting out have some idea what they're letting themselves in for!!! "Business for musicians" would be a HUGELY important addition to the curriculum at most conservatories! Speaking personally, I never set out or expected to make a corporate salary as an opera singer (or photographer), so I don't feel disappointed that I haven't done so; we lead a pretty comfortable middle-class life - not a lot for fancy extras, but we own a car, a home, and have never wanted for food on the table. Some people consider this "starving artist". I consider it "doing something I love, even if I don't make as much money as some people out there". YMMV.
Clarification about my own photo pricing: I am NOT "giving things away" at cost. No way! I put far too much time into my photography. I have raised my prices approximately every 6 months since I started charging and will be raising them again soon to reflect the mid-high range for what I do, in my geographical area. I know my market well (I'm a performer, shooting performers), and have really thought about what I need to make it worth my while as WELL AS what I would be willing to pay..... and tried to balance those things. I have chosen to offer one "mini-package" (shorter session, fewer included prints) which graduate students/emerging professionals can afford, since that demographic is one of my target markets; we have multiple unis and conservatories in town, so I consider that a smart business decision which keeps people seeking me out. So, just to explain that I have not mindlessly gone all Pollyanna resulting in giving my services away - I've put quite a bit of thought and research into it.
To clarify my own consumer spending: I will ABSOLUTELY pay for the best... when it *is* the best. Cf my earlier comments about "quality". What I resent is things which are presented as "luxury" items which are actually the same stuff with glossier packaging/marketing campaign. Big difference between that and "settling for lesser quality". A silly example of my philosophy would be something like a lens cap: I am quite happy to buy 50c each crappy eBay lens caps instead of a $6-10 "real" Canon lens cap. I lose them anyway, and I don't care if people look at my camera and say "ooh..... real Canon lens cap....". Conversely, I'll gladly pay more for a pure silk designer concert gown over a crappy polyester knockoff, because the actual product has added value both aesthetically and functionally (better made, better fabric, better fit - PRODUCT not marketing).
You also have a good point, however, that anybody "in the business" (whatever the business is), will balk at paying prices a consumer will gladly pay. Fair enough.
To bring this back to the OP's questions, I think this is the best point made yet:
Target marketing. SCORE!!!
I think this is a great advantage we have as artists and business people, the fact that you can charge anything you like and each and every persons work is individual and can set it's own price.
It's a shame more shooters don't realise and take advantage of it.
I'll bet if you asked the guy he'd tell you it takes him a week to make one print which is probably true. What he wouldn't tell you is it takes him 1 week and 1 minute to produce 20 of that type print.
I notice some of his images which he is offering at $1500 are " limited" to 100 prints.
That's a LOT of return for one 4x5 Negative!
IF I had any real talent, this is an area I'd have a go at because it seems with the power of the net and a good PR company, you could take this a long way as a business. Heck, maybe I'll try to keep it in mind and take any potential images I see and salt them away till I have more time and then see if I can make anything out of them.
I am wondering though at this point how much time and effort Lee needs to spend on his personal image and story. Seems to me that all of the shooters making big money have a "story" which ads value to their work. I'm more familiar with wedding that fine art shooters. but a lot of the big earners in that game are somewhat out there or have that real artist look and style about them. The rest of the image is largely self written and their work differs the most in price rather than anything exceptionally different to what a lot of other people are doing.
I often find it's the created impression of their work that is their biggest standout rather than their work itself but they do pull in the huge bucks.
Perhaps It might be wise for Lee to spend some of his early earnings with a PR company or some business mentor in that area to check out what will give him a long term success and grow his name and reputation in the market to set the foundation for the future.
I have a feeling at the upper end of the fine art game it's probably about name, reputation ( largely self created) and perception than it is about the work per se.
IF that is what it takes, best to get in on the ground floor and start building things up.
I agree, the skill and quality must be there, but name and reputation play a BIG part. If I were able to produce an image equal to the quality and artistic beauty of say someone like a John Sexton, I would not be able to command the same price because of reputation. The point is to not let that deter you, get started at a level of profit that makes the effort worth it and grow from there.