World Tour visit to Japan

Bilsen · July 29, 2013

Geisha Cyndi performed a tea ceremony and three traditional dances for our visit to Japan.

I have just started processing and these are the first few.

2.

3.

4

5.

6.

7.

8. BTS, none of this was possible without Anylza doing Hair, styling and being the pose meister

Bilsen · July 30, 2013

BTW, I know the WB is changing. I'm playing around to see what I like. Any preferences on that??

Hackbone · July 30, 2013

No images showing up on my computer.

Bilsen · July 30, 2013

They're back. Sorry Hack, I redid the Gallery and changed all the addresses.

This was the tea ceremony set. There is a geisha dance set coming.

jonh68 · July 30, 2013

Makeup and costume are great. The lighting is flat and uninteresting , camera angles and perspective look one dimensional. The poses are awkward in regards to preparing tea. Either have her look at the camera or the tea, but staring out to neither looks awkward 2-4.

Bilsen · July 30, 2013

Comments all taken in regard to lighting and technicals Jon, but you need to do the research my team did before you comment on the tea ceremonial poses.

jonh68 · July 30, 2013

Bilsen wrote: »

Comments all taken in regard to lighting and technicals Jon, but you need to do the research my team did before you comment on the tea ceremonial poses.

Just an observation of how it looks, don't need to get snippy.

Bilsen · July 31, 2013

In retrospect, you're right in one way Jon. I did get a bit "snippy" and I apologize for that.

More correctly I should have explained in more detail.

Putting aside the technicals, the poses, expressions and lack of camera connection are all the result of HOURS of looking at traditional geisha images by all three of us. If you know Cyndi's work, you know she has a very powerful camera presence and these poses and expressions were actually difficult for her.

My daughter-in-law/art director Anylza was working from 30 images on my iPad right on the set. Looking at the last frame in the thread, you can see the detail she constantly directed ("hold the fan at the edge", "soften your face", etc). There were poses that took 2-3 minutes of work with Anylza actually hands on adjusting Cyndi.

As for the camera connection, again difficult for both Cyndi and me, the traditional geisha is deferential to the point of submissive. As such, she rarely looks directly into a client`s face and maintains a demure, dreamy quality. We were showing that.

Anyway, I appreciate your chiming in.

Bryce Wilson · July 31, 2013

I like the idea and the concept. I also think the poses and expressions convey Geisha very well.

That said, something about them were leaving me "flat". After looking at them a while I think what is leaving me less than excited is the way you chose to light the set.

The set is as bright, if not brighter in some cases, as your subject. I think the subject should be the primary focus when looking at the image and the background there to support her. Not equal partners if you will. As they are, my focus tends to wander around the image looking for a place to settle.

jonh68 · July 31, 2013

No problem.

I get that about the demure part. What i am saying is in 2-4 she is in the middle of a process. It looks awkward to look away while pouring tea. It just isn't a natural instinct when one is actually performing a task in 2 and 3.

Looking at the traditional tea ceremony pictures and historical etches, they are demure and submissive in their approach. I just didn't see anything quite like 2 and 3. They are either looking at the client, viewer, or the tea. Because it looks unnatural to me it looks very posed and takes me out of the scene. It just doesn't feel organic. In 3, her hands are outstretched one way to offer tea to someone and her head is looking off in another direction. Just doesn't look natural.

Bilsen · July 31, 2013

Thanks guys.

Bryce, I may be able to change the lighting you and Jon point out in PP. I'll definitely play with it. Maybe vignette it some or pull the background darker with spot adjusments.

Jon, I understand your point better now that you explain it. we have others were she is looking either at the tea set or at her "client". I'll post a couple of those later in this thread.

D3Sshooter · August 1, 2013

Its hard to make a choice, I tend to go for number 2. But overall I am missing the calmness in the pictures. Japan is the place of balance and so I would like to see that in the pictures. I think that 3 things work against it in this series.

1. The very busy background
2. The lack of a good bokeh (that would diffuse the background)
3. The uniform light, play with lights and shadows will create more depth ( flash off shoe would help, or a reflector)

That is just my view, for what it is worth .

Bilsen · August 1, 2013

Thanks for the comments D3.

As Diva, Hack, et al can tell you, I've had this discussion of backgrounds before and, for the most part, have conceded to bokeh in many cases. Actually, you can see that in the closeups (#s 6 & 7).

With that said, to me, the screen, cherry blossoms and design are integral parts of the story so, in this set, they are exactly what I want.

The lighting is actually two studio strobes. Main light is 45º to camera left and 45º above her and metered at f7.1. Fill light is just off the camera axis to camera right metered at f4.5.
That setup usually works for me but I think, in this case, I didn't take into account the stark white makeup and the light screen thus giving the appearance of flat flash. That's the only thing I can think of.

Again, thanks for chiming in.

Hackbone · August 1, 2013

As proof of the bright background I like the progression of cropping out the bkg as you look at 1, then 2, then 3. You get more of a feeling of warmth and focal point as you go down. 3 has a lot of commercial appeal to me, its down well.

I think you might have had enough light bouncing around with just the main.....just thinking.

I admire all the concepts you come up with, that brain is always spinning.

Bilsen · August 1, 2013

Thanks Hack.

I don't feel bad about the background or the poses BUT I do think I failed to adjust for two things:
1) The reflective quality of the dead white MU and
2) the white/light screen surrounding her which probably would have been enough fill on camera right.
A prime example of metering but also looking. I went too much by the numbers.
I just didn't have the indoor experience to adjust for that. I do now.

puzzledpaul · August 1, 2013

Hackbone wrote: »

... 3 has a lot of commercial appeal to me, its down well.

...

I've no idea about 'commercial' appeal for this sort of pic, but it's also the one that I find the most appealing.

Think you really have to check verticals, tho ... and I wonder about the lower edge of the mat being angled with frame bottom ... esp with blk bg highlighting this fact.

pp

Bilsen · August 1, 2013

Thanks Paul.

I actually did notice that but, when I straighten the verticals, that's the way the mat comes out. Take a look at #s 4, 5 & 8 particularly. I did use the lens correction Fx in ACR but it seems as if I get one or the other no matter what.

puzzledpaul · August 1, 2013

Bilsen wrote: »

...but, when I straighten the verticals, that's the way the mat comes out. ... // ... I did use the lens correction Fx in ACR but it seems as if I get one or the other no matter what.

I was thinking more about getting the mat 'square on' to the main plane of focus, in the set - rather than any PP tweaking.

ie rotating it (mat) a bit clockwise.

Just jumped out (to me) ... but whether this type of issue is of any real importance / relevance is your call

I also wonder if the mat moved around a bit between shots? ... if so, maybe consider double sided tape for similar setups, once setup done ...

pp

Hackbone · August 1, 2013

This forum is fixated on vertical and horizontals!!! Give me another beer.

Bilsen · August 1, 2013

puzzledpaul wrote: »

I was thinking more about getting the mat 'square on' to the main plane of focus, in the set - rather than any PP tweaking.

ie rotating it (mat) a bit clockwise.

Just jumped out (to me) ... but whether this type of issue is of any real importance / relevance is your call

I also wonder if the mat moved around a bit between shots? ... if so, maybe consider double sided tape for similar setups, once setup done ...

pp

Don't quite know how to make the mat straight without moving the floor Paul.

joshhuntnm · August 1, 2013

the light looks a little uneven to me -- dropping off on the right side.

puzzledpaul · August 2, 2013

Hackbone wrote: »

This forum is fixated on vertical and horizontals!!! Give me another beer.

I hesitate in commenting further about such things after the above ... but since the following has been asked ...

I'm not really that bothered one way or the other, but when verticals (as in 3) are so close to being parallel to frame sides - but not quite aligned - they stick out like sore thumbs (to me).

I'm more than happy to keep my own council on such apparent trivia, but when I read about how someone's spent so much time on other details of a shot in order to get things 'right' ... I assume they're interested in any other (small) details that might be of relevance?

Yes, a beer'd be nice - especially f you're buying

(probably all left-overs from taking pics of waterfowl + reflections ... where angled horizons / reflections generally look somewhat odd)

Bilsen wrote: »

Don't quite know how to make the mat straight without moving the floor Paul.

Either you (+ cam) move to a position where the mat edge is parallel with frame bottom (keeping verts aligned too) or you stay in the original position (as shot taken) but rotate the mat, around a vertical axis until it's edge is parallel with frame bottom.

Obviously the latter is easier to do without anyone on it

pp

Bilsen · August 2, 2013

Don't hesitate to comment on my account Paul.

AS far as the mat, the floor flows that way. I can straighten the mat but then the verticals will be off. Ya picks yer pi'son I'm afraid.

puzzledpaul · August 2, 2013

Bilsen wrote: »

...AS far as the mat, the floor flows that way...

Well, I certainly hadn't considered you were working with a floor that wasn't level - if that's what the above means

What's that old saying / adage about never assuming anything ...

pp

Hackbone · August 2, 2013

puzzledpaul wrote: »

I hesitate in commenting further about such things after the above ... but since the following has been asked ...

Nothing I say is ever said in anger or disgust so I hope all take it that way. I think some folks are justified in their idea of vert or horiz. The world is full of imperfections that at times add to the images and peoples.

puzzledpaul · August 3, 2013

Hackbone wrote: »

Nothing I say is ever said in anger or disgust so I hope all take it that way.

Certainly taken in this way by me.
Whilst 'people photography' isn't my main interest, there are occasions when I have to deal with such subject matter on an informal basis - hence trespassing in here, looking for tips / ideas etc from 'togs who do know what they're doing - as a working pro, I invariably check out your contributions and find them very useful.
But we all know how subjective this lark is, so differences of opinion are also inevitable.

Hackbone wrote: »

... The world is full of imperfections that at times add to the images and peoples...

I couldn't agree more, although some might argue that my usual subjects are as near to perfection as many thousands / millions of generations of evolution has produced ... and I'll generally try to avoid - if at all possible - any 'hand of man' element in frame.

People shots often include a chunk of man-made environment - and therefore decisions have to be made - especially in controlled situations where both the surroundings and subject are 'placed / posed' in accordance with the 'tog's wishes.

My comments were made from this stance.

Hopefully we'd agree that (in general) tilted horizons / frames go from looking ok (depending on taste) when obvious that it's deliberate ... to 'not ok?' when, at some point, the angular mismatch with frame starts to look like a 'mistake'.

Coming from an engineering background - and used to dealing with 3D modelling concepts / problems, I accept I have a particular take on this type of topic - which may well be at odds with more 'artistic / creative' types than myself

pp

Tinstafl · August 3, 2013

I like number three the best. The light is a bit uneven on a few after that on the background screen. I wonder if you have a coupe more feet of room if you could pull Cyndi out a foot or twoand feather the main light a bit more. The white face paint and the darker robe is the reverse of shooting a black bride in a white dress. Or a blond guy in a black tux. I try to account for that in the lighting with a half black half white well really 3/4 1/4 white black and black white next to the subjects. Helps out a bunch subtracting and adding a bit of light.

Bilsen · August 3, 2013

Thanks Tin. There isn't a lot of room in that studio to move her away from the screen. Had that problem all winter.

As for the light, I mentioned I should have accounted for the white screen surrounding her and the reflective white makeup. Next time maybe.

michaelglenn · August 4, 2013

I appreciate the set up. I think this could have had a lot of potential, but there are a couple things that don't work for me.

1. The lighting is flat. - There is nothing dynamic here. I feel like I'm asking myself, what should I be looking at?
2. Static posing and lack of expression. - Every photo from this set, I don't know what to think. I see her doing things, but I don't feel a story, see any kind of meaning behind the image, etc.
3. The scenario. - She is pouring tea for herself. Okay, so is that it? Something that might be more interesting is her making tea. Showing genuine expressions as she is pouring herself a cup might unveil a little storytelling to engage the viewer.

You have a lot of potential, Bilsen. You always have great models to work with, but I think you need to step out of your comfort zone a little bit. That's how you'll get that wow factor everyone's waiting for. Keep trying!

Bilsen · August 5, 2013

Thanks for chiming in Mike. We'll see if the Voodoo shoot (which was WAYYY outside my comfort zone) "wows" anyone.

Hackbone · August 5, 2013

John, what focal length do you generally use for these, your actual shooting mm.