I believe that bokeh should remain recognizable in all but image-filling portraits, should add to the contextual uniformity of the shot, help explain what the subject's doing there. That way you get dual purpose, intended subject "pop" plus interest. In the wedding shot, I think the subject, obviously bride and groom, should be more fully up-close and personal (what could be more personal than a wedding day?), should be taken from a lower perspective to avoid the "water wall" look), but otherwise the bokeh is fine, soft but still fully recognizable, and to the subjects I'm guessing fully in context with the event, adding interesting meaning without competing or distracting. Making the subjects more fully up-close and personal will, of course, increase their real estate and decrease that of the background, but in total the image will present a more pleasingly proportioned and meaningful shot.
See my work at http://www.flickr.com/photos/26525400@N04/sets/. Policy is to initially upload 10-20 images from each shoot, then a few from various of the in-process shoots each time I log on, until a shoot is completely uploaded.
While we're talking about Dank's wedding shot:D - the cyan cast needs to be mentioned also, the blue and green channels are significantly higher than the red in the wedding dress, which I bet is a variant of white.
Bokeh is described as the appearance of the out of focus areas of an image. Bokeh can be described as "good bokeh" when the OOF areas are smooth, buttery soft, with smooth, even, round, ( not polygonal ) highlights.
So yes your image has bokeh, just not great bokeh in my opinion. Not bad, but not great either.
While we're talking about Dank's wedding shot:D - the cyan cast needs to be mentioned also, the blue and green channels are significantly higher than the red in the wedding dress, which I bet is a variant of white.
Thanks jimphotog, and Pathfinder! This is actually a scanned film print from my first wedding that I shot for a friend a few years ago(before digi equip and business). It was taken with an older Pentax K1000...and I handed the film off to the bride and groom. (I generally would not have done this, but it was more of a favor to a friend) I haven't done any post processing on them, hence the cyan cast.
There has been very little discussion of bokeh with regard to smaller sensor cameras - point and shoots - like the G9. Because it is usually pretty poor, I suspect. I even made a joke about it (earlier in this thread). I expanded on the discussion a little further in another thread.
Typically, it is very hard to get an Out of Focus background due to the inherent greater DOF of smaller sensors. Your shots with the G9 show that one must be careful with these generalizations. Nicely done Antonio.
It will be easier to get OOF backgrounds with the G9 with a larger aperture, a longer focal length, and a closer camera to subject distance - just like your shots, Antonio.
... It will be easier to get OOF backgrounds with the G9 with a larger aperture, a longer focal length, and a closer camera to subject distance - just like your shots, Antonio.
I thought I had done the pictures with Aperture priority having in mind the shallow DoF but the EXIF (EXIF for the bee) doesn't say so.
I am mistaken then.
Do you think that the exposure mode Aperture priority changes to auto when in Macro ? Huuummm. I suspect just looking at the other pictures I shot this morning...
Have to re-shoot and confirm. Because I am almost sure I was using Aperture prioriry... thumb
But in picture of the car you have cropped and blurred the background, haven't you ? I've done nothing at all. Just shot the picture.:D
I thought I had done the pictures with Aperture priority having in mind the shallow DoF but the EXIF (EXIF for the bee) doesn't say so.
I am mistaken then.
Av, Tv, P - all are really not relative when speaking about bokeh - The only thing that matters in the final analysis is what aperture was actually used for the shot, and the bee was shot at f3.2 - so a pretty large aperture like I suspected.
But in picture of the car you have cropped and blurred the background, haven't you ? I've done nothing at all. Just shot the picture.:D
Yes, I did select the car, and apply a Gaussian blur to the background. That was why I said I was joking about the bokeh of a G9. My G9 bokeh was 'fake', but yours was the real deal!! Nice work, Antonio!
This is my favorite effect and I haven't been able to capture it until I got my E-410. I've had a little practice and here is one of my fav's. Please, C&C so I can get better.
By far the best Bokeh - STF lenses
I own a 135 STF (Smooth Trans Focus) which is the best Bokeh you can get on a lens. Notice there is NO lines or shapes in the out of focus areas. It comes at a cost - Manual focus only and about a stop and a half of light.
Canon 20D + 70-200 f/2.8 IS L USM
The bokeh is not as smooth as the Canon 400 f/5.6 or even the Canon 180 f/3.5 above but very good anyway.:D
I think macro lens are designed to close shots and - when they are really good - they give nice bokeh ...
Ahh, Bokeh...
First let's find that darned soapbox...
:soapbox
Let's approach this three ways...
Bokeh the word... Bokeh as a word is Japanese. It translates roughly into "blur". It's pronounced "BOH-kay", and yes, the deprecated long "ay" sound is very hard for English speakers, that's why most people pronouce it like the spanish word for mouth, "boca".
Bokeh the concept... Bokeh is the photographic property produced by limiting depth of field and producing backgrounds out of focus such that the center of attention is the part of the photograph that's in focus.
Bokeh the science... Bokeh is produced by the diaphram of the lens being used to create the aperture of the exposure being made. In a wide aperture, the points of light in areas out of focus expand, conflict with their neighbors and lose detail. Now here's the cool technical bit... If your lens' diaphram has curved petals that construct a circular or nearly circular opening during exposure, the shape of the blurred points of light in the area out of focus will be circular. If the petals of your diaphram are straight, the shape of the bokeh will be a polygon with straight edges, the number of which will equal the number of petals in your diaphram; when these bokeh points are made by bright spots, they will be clearly seen as polygons in the background.
Last the word of warning, Cassegrain reflector lenses (Phoenix makes a very cheap one) produce donut-shaped bokeh (with a hole in the center) because of the location of the reflector mirror. Although these lenses seem to make a very cost effective alternative for long telephoto glass, they should be avoided due to their effect on the quality of bokeh.
Many people think that good bokeh can only be achieved with
expensive lenses. See what the inexpensive Tamron 70-300mm/4-5.6
can do:
“To consult the rules of composition before making a picture is a little like consulting the law of gravitation before going for a walk.”
― Edward Weston
I've always liked the effect and try to compose a shot using it as part of the picture almost as much as the main object. Sometime gradual as in the first photo. And then again, sometimes as a sharp contrast to make the central subject stand out even more as in the second example.
“To consult the rules of composition before making a picture is a little like consulting the law of gravitation before going for a walk.”
― Edward Weston
-
Canon 5D + 24-70 at 70mm f/2,8 + natural morning light + Lightroom
I love this 5D !
--
And Canon G9 at f/4,5 + macro position + natural morning light + Lightroom, also very good bokeh.
Such a funny term for something that has been around since lenses were made. I really am not understanding this phenomenon??! It's just a shallow depth of field. What is the huge deal here?!
"They've done studies you know. Sixty-percent of the time, it works every time."
Such a funny term for something that has been around since lenses were made. I really am not understanding this phenomenon??! It's just a shallow depth of field. What is the huge deal here?!
:D Indeed. No deal whatsoever.
Just an argument to show our background hard blurred pictures.
Comments
Moderator of the Technique Forum and Finishing School on Dgrin
Kim
So yes your image has bokeh, just not great bokeh in my opinion. Not bad, but not great either.
Moderator of the Technique Forum and Finishing School on Dgrin
Thanks jimphotog, and Pathfinder! This is actually a scanned film print from my first wedding that I shot for a friend a few years ago(before digi equip and business). It was taken with an older Pentax K1000...and I handed the film off to the bride and groom. (I generally would not have done this, but it was more of a favor to a friend) I haven't done any post processing on them, hence the cyan cast.
-DK
www.dank-photo.com
www.dank-photo.blogspot.com
This is quite good I think.
There has been very little discussion of bokeh with regard to smaller sensor cameras - point and shoots - like the G9. Because it is usually pretty poor, I suspect. I even made a joke about it (earlier in this thread). I expanded on the discussion a little further in another thread.
Typically, it is very hard to get an Out of Focus background due to the inherent greater DOF of smaller sensors. Your shots with the G9 show that one must be careful with these generalizations. Nicely done Antonio.
It will be easier to get OOF backgrounds with the G9 with a larger aperture, a longer focal length, and a closer camera to subject distance - just like your shots, Antonio.
Moderator of the Technique Forum and Finishing School on Dgrin
I thought I had done the pictures with Aperture priority having in mind the shallow DoF but the EXIF (EXIF for the bee) doesn't say so.
I am mistaken then.
Do you think that the exposure mode Aperture priority changes to auto when in Macro ? Huuummm. I suspect just looking at the other pictures I shot this morning...
Have to re-shoot and confirm. Because I am almost sure I was using Aperture prioriry...
But in picture of the car you have cropped and blurred the background, haven't you ?
Av, Tv, P - all are really not relative when speaking about bokeh - The only thing that matters in the final analysis is what aperture was actually used for the shot, and the bee was shot at f3.2 - so a pretty large aperture like I suspected.
Yes, I did select the car, and apply a Gaussian blur to the background. That was why I said I was joking about the bokeh of a G9. My G9 bokeh was 'fake', but yours was the real deal!! Nice work, Antonio!
Moderator of the Technique Forum and Finishing School on Dgrin
This is my favorite effect and I haven't been able to capture it until I got my E-410. I've had a little practice and here is one of my fav's. Please, C&C so I can get better.
http://silversx80.smugmug.com/
Olympus E-M5, 12-50mm, 45mm f/1.8
Some legacy OM lenses and an OM-10
I own a 135 STF (Smooth Trans Focus) which is the best Bokeh you can get on a lens. Notice there is NO lines or shapes in the out of focus areas. It comes at a cost - Manual focus only and about a stop and a half of light.
Tour Leader - DPRK
Uri Tours
SmugMug - photos.japanphotos.jp
Matthew
This is wonderful.
Good long glass tends to produce pretty good bokeh.
Ginger shot with an EOS 400 f5.6 which is a very nice piece of glass. Lots of us here were privileged to know Ginger and her work. She is missed.
My pelican was shot with a 400 f4 DO IS, which some folks disparage for less than stellar bokeh.
Moderator of the Technique Forum and Finishing School on Dgrin
Master Of Sushi Noms
Amateur CSS Dork
The bokeh is not as smooth as the Canon 400 f/5.6 or even the Canon 180 f/3.5 above but very good anyway.:D
I think macro lens are designed to close shots and - when they are really good - they give nice bokeh ...
First let's find that darned soapbox...
:soapbox
Let's approach this three ways...
Bokeh the word... Bokeh as a word is Japanese. It translates roughly into "blur". It's pronounced "BOH-kay", and yes, the deprecated long "ay" sound is very hard for English speakers, that's why most people pronouce it like the spanish word for mouth, "boca".
Bokeh the concept... Bokeh is the photographic property produced by limiting depth of field and producing backgrounds out of focus such that the center of attention is the part of the photograph that's in focus.
Bokeh the science... Bokeh is produced by the diaphram of the lens being used to create the aperture of the exposure being made. In a wide aperture, the points of light in areas out of focus expand, conflict with their neighbors and lose detail. Now here's the cool technical bit... If your lens' diaphram has curved petals that construct a circular or nearly circular opening during exposure, the shape of the blurred points of light in the area out of focus will be circular. If the petals of your diaphram are straight, the shape of the bokeh will be a polygon with straight edges, the number of which will equal the number of petals in your diaphram; when these bokeh points are made by bright spots, they will be clearly seen as polygons in the background.
Last the word of warning, Cassegrain reflector lenses (Phoenix makes a very cheap one) produce donut-shaped bokeh (with a hole in the center) because of the location of the reflector mirror. Although these lenses seem to make a very cost effective alternative for long telephoto glass, they should be avoided due to their effect on the quality of bokeh.
expensive lenses. See what the inexpensive Tamron 70-300mm/4-5.6
can do:
― Edward Weston
Mike
Reeflections Gallery
Underwater Photography Workshops & Ikelite equipment
D70 - 18-70 mm in Macro mode.
D70 70-300mm in Macro mode.
— Kevin
My Site, My Book
Tamron 180mm Macro at f4
― Edward Weston
Canon 5D + 24-70 at 70mm f/2,8 + natural morning light + Lightroom
I love this 5D !
--
And Canon G9 at f/4,5 + macro position + natural morning light + Lightroom, also very good bokeh.
Do you agree ?
http://www.RussErbePhotography.com :thumb
http://www.sportsshooter.com/erbeman
D700, D300, Nikkor 35-70 F/2.8, Nikkor 50mm F/1.8, Nikkor 70-200 AF-S VR F/2.8, Nikkor AF-S 1.7 teleconverter II,(2) Profoto D1 500 Air,SB-900, SB-600, (2)MB-D10, MacBook Pro
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Just an argument to show our background hard blurred pictures.
Ahhh.... I see. Over the last few years, "bokeh" seems to become sort of a photo cult. Regardless, nice photos!!! Love the ladybug.
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