I don't get it...

lynnma

:dunno

Hi everyone. So, I'm taking a group shot tomorrow in natural light and I want to add some strobe light. I'm new at using strobes by the way, still practicing. So I set up my lights (inside to practice) and attach my new Sekonic Flashmate L-308S to a pole where my subject will be. I trigger the flashes after matching iso - shutter speeds etc and I'm looking for an aperture setting.. the setting my flashmate gives me is constantly way way off - totally under exposed. In manual mode lowering the shutter speed way down to 60 the aperture now gives me 22!! at 250 it's giving me 8 - all hugely underexposed... what the heck am I doing wrong. I've gone blank. Is it just that there is not enough light?? if so, why doesn't my flashmate adjust for that...:dunno thanks in advance cos I know you'll know....

ziggy53

Please see if these tutorial videos help:

Sekonic L-308S: Ambient Metering
Sekonic L-308S: Metering Strobe
Sekonic L-308S: Metering Tricks

lynnma

ziggy53 wrote: »

Please see if these tutorial videos help:

Sekonic L-308S: Ambient Metering
Sekonic L-308S: Metering Strobe
Sekonic L-308S: Metering Tricks

thank ziggy

Sam

While it won't help for tomorrow you might be interested in this: http://www.sekonic.com/classroom/webinars/using-a-light-meter-for-better-portraits.aspx?utm_source=Lyris&utm_medium=eBlast&utm_campaign=Sekonic+Webinar+Invite+9/12/13

Sam

cmason

Sounds like your light meter may be getting fooled by the pre-flash, but not sure.

Photogbiker

silly mistake I make more often than I want to admit is not setting my ISO correct on my flash meter (match camera setting). When something computerish like a flash meter is giving you an answer that can't be right, better check the question. Flash meters can fail, but I would exhaust all of the items of user input first. Pre-flash is a great comment also.

I am a proponent of using flash meters to get it right, but in a pinch you can just trial and error it with your histogram and preview screen.

lynnma

Photogbiker wrote: »

silly mistake I make more often than I want to admit is not setting my ISO correct on my flash meter (match camera setting). When something computerish like a flash meter is giving you an answer that can't be right, better check the question. Flash meters can fail, but I would exhaust all of the items of user input first. Pre-flash is a great comment also.

I am a proponent of using flash meters to get it right, but in a pinch you can just trial and error it with your histogram and preview screen.

Thanks photogbiker and all. Sam I'll look at that link today. It wasn't the iso settings or anything cos I double checked all those over and over. I did the shoot and the meter would give me say an aperture of f16 - I'd set my shutter speed at 100 with an iso of 160. Outside in good light that shot was way overexposed (I kept running in and looking at them in ps) I ended up knocking the aperture down to like f13 or even f11 to get the right exposure. I'm thinking... (hard for me) that it's to do with my flash. My flash is kinda old - Canon speedlite 420 ex and it all Ettl. Do you think it's sort of arguing with the settings.. could it?I don't see there is anyway to calibrate anything (even if I knew how) the meter just measure the light. The preflash idea sounds good. I have red eye enabled, would that course a preflash and would there be a preflash if it was turned off...
Thanks for all the help so far. I'll get it in the end.. just takes time to get my facts right and my head round it.
I did end up using the histogram a lot in the end.. dare not trust it. The meter works fine with ambient light by the way.
Thanks again.
Lynn

Sam

Lynnma,

I think I see your problem. Your using an on camera speed light set on ETTL.

In order to use the light meter the light source needs to be consistent. If you set your flash to manual
then measure, assuming the distance from the light and subject doesn't change you will get consistent results.

To add to this your shooting in daylight and using the flash as fill, not the primary light. That means you need to set the cameras exposure for the ambient light, then set / measure the flash output until you get the amount of fill (percentage) desired.

If it were me and I only had one on camera speed light I would probably use aperture priority, set the flash to ETTL and take a test shot and adjust. To adjust simply add or subtract flash power compensation.

Hopefully people with more flash knowledge than I have will chime in.

Sam

ziggy53

lynnma wrote: »

... My flash is kinda old - Canon speedlite 420 ex and it all Ettl. Do you think it's sort of arguing with the settings.. could it?I don't see there is anyway to calibrate anything (even if I knew how) the meter just measure the light. The preflash idea sounds good. I have red eye enabled, would that course a preflash and would there be a preflash if it was turned off...
...

Using a flash meter with a TTL flash is rather useless. TTL means that the camera is controlling the flash exposure.

Using TTL plus the red-eye reduction mode likely gave you very odd results on the external meter. TTL flash emits the pre-flash, although relatively low power, and red-eye reduction emits a much stronger flash to close the pupils of the subjects. The "contributing" flash is yet another flash pulse, and the only one used for building the image exposure.

However, your external flash meter would likely see and read "all" of these flash pulses, yielding very odd results and totally useless information.

---

I truly believe that the best use of a handheld incident and ambient light meter is with both the camera set to manual control and manual mode flash(es). You ignore the camera metering altogether and use the external, hand-held meter to provide all of your exposure settings for both the camera and the flash(es).

Then, those tutorials I linked to earlier will start to make sense and have merit.

Edit: Yes, this will probably mean purchasing an additional flash which has a manual mode.

---

Under "no" circumstances should you have to use red-eye reduction for outdoor situations during daylight hours. The subjects' pupils will naturally be smaller (from the daylight) and you shouldn't have a problem with red-eye using any external flash.

lynnma

ziggy53 wrote: »

Using a flash meter with a TTL flash is rather useless. TTL means that the camera is controlling the flash exposure.

Using TTL plus the red-eye reduction mode likely gave you very odd results on the external meter. TTL flash emits the pre-flash, although relatively low power, and red-eye reduction emits a much stronger flash to close the pupils of the subjects. The "contributing" flash is yet another flash pulse, and the only one used for building the image exposure.

However, your external flash meter would likely see and read "all" of these flash pulses, yielding very odd results and totally useless information.

---

I truly believe that the best use of a handheld incident and ambient light meter is with both the camera set to manual control and manual mode flash(es). You ignore the camera metering altogether and use the external, hand-held meter to provide all of your exposure settings for both the camera and the flash(es).

Then, those tutorials I linked to earlier will start to make sense and have merit.

Edit: Yes, this will probably mean purchasing an additional flash which has a manual mode.

---

Under "no" circumstances should you have to use red-eye reduction for outdoor situations during daylight hours. The subjects' pupils will naturally be smaller (from the daylight) and you shouldn't have a problem with red-eye using any external flash.

Thanks ziggy and sam for great information.. it all makes sense now.

lynnma

lynnma wrote: »

Thanks ziggy and sam for great information.. it all makes sense now.

I can't sleep for thinking about this.. I really don't want to spend any more money but.... what's wrong with this little gadget for $59?? I have an ST E2 that I could trigger it with from a stand? can control flash output right? flash fill contributing around 20% depending on how far from subject? seems like it would work for little money.. what is your opinion.. I'm assuming it would work with my Canon 50D



http://www.thephoblographer.com/2012/04/09/review-yongnuo-560-ex-ii-flash-for-canon-and-nikon/

ziggy53

lynnma wrote: »

I can't sleep for thinking about this.. I really don't want to spend any more money but.... what's wrong with this little gadget for $59?? I have an ST E2 that I could trigger it with from a stand? can control flash output right? flash fill contributing around 20% depending on how far from subject? seems like it would work for little money.. what is your opinion.. I'm assuming it would work with my Canon 50D

Yongnuo flashes are very cheaply made and have a rather high incidence of complaints.

https://www.google.com/#q=Yongnuo+flash+problem

Sigma makes a much better product and I have 4 of the Sigma DG Super series of flashes for the Canon interface, compared to 2 Canon 580EX flashes. An older, used Canon 550EX is also very capable.

On a budget, Sigma also has an "ST" line of flashes. The Sigma EF610 DG ST Flash for Canon E-TTL II lacks the "Wireless Master/Controller" capabilities of the "Super" line, but otherwise should be very capable. It too can be controlled and fired from your Canon ST-E2.

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/741740-REG/Sigma_199101_EF610_DG_ST_Flash.html
http://www.adorama.com/SG610STEOS.html

Here is a used Canon 550EX that would make a much better choice for you and is still very reasonable:

http://www.adorama.com/US%20%20%20%20588481.html

lynnma

ziggy53 wrote: »

Yongnuo flashes are very cheaply made and have a rather high incidence of complaints.

https://www.google.com/#q=Yongnuo+flash+problem

Sigma makes a much better product and I have 4 of the Sigma DG Super series of flashes for the Canon interface, compared to 2 Canon 580EX flashes. An older, used Canon 550EX is also very capable.

On a budget, Sigma also has an "ST" line of flashes. The Sigma EF610 DG ST Flash for Canon E-TTL II lacks the "Wireless Master/Controller" capabilities of the "Super" line, but otherwise should be very capable. It too can be controlled and fired from your Canon ST-E2.

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/741740-REG/Sigma_199101_EF610_DG_ST_Flash.html
http://www.adorama.com/SG610STEOS.html

Here is a used Canon 550EX that would make a much better choice for you and is still very reasonable:

http://www.adorama.com/US%20%20%20%20588481.html

Thank you so much for all your help ziggy. Yup, I guess you get what you pay for. I'm looking at the Canon 550EX - have asked for a quote on my 420EX and if I can swing it It'll make me feel better about getting YET MORE stuff. Usually I just go ahead and "click" as my husband is always saying but I'm glad I resisted this time and asked you first.

ziggy53

lynnma wrote: »

Thank you so much for all your help ziggy. Yup, I guess you get what you pay for. I'm looking at the Canon 550EX - have asked for a quote on my 420EX and if I can swing it It'll make me feel better about getting YET MORE stuff. Usually I just go ahead and "click" as my husband is always saying but I'm glad I resisted this time and asked you first.

I would not wait too long on the used 550EX. They get snapped up pretty quickly.

lynnma

ziggy53 wrote: »

I would not wait too long on the used 550EX. They get snapped up pretty quickly.

I've put my 420EX on ebay does the canon 550EX allow you to select 1/4 power and 1/2 power etc when in manual?

ziggy53

Here is a PDF for the Canon 550EX flash:

http://mfaphoto.schoolofvisualarts.edu/pdfs/manuals/Canon_Speedlite_550EX%20.pdf

On page 44 they show how to set the flash from 1:1 (Full Power) through to 1:32 power in manual mode.

I believe that about the only thing that the 550EX that's missing, compared to the 580EX for instance, is the ability to autosense crop cameras and apply more zoom for crop camera bodies, so it wastes a bit of flash power, mostly noticeable outdoors (because the extra flash just goes away and is lost.)

Still, it's a very good flash and should work fine for your needs.

lynnma

ziggy53 wrote: »

Here is a PDF for the Canon 550EX flash:

http://mfaphoto.schoolofvisualarts.edu/pdfs/manuals/Canon_Speedlite_550EX%20.pdf

On page 44 they show how to set the flash from 1:1 (Full Power) through to 1:32 power in manual mode.

I believe that about the only thing that the 550EX that's missing, compared to the 580EX for instance, is the ability to autosense crop cameras and apply more zoom for crop camera bodies, so it wastes a bit of flash power, mostly noticeable outdoors (because the extra flash just goes away and is lost.)

Still, it's a very good flash and should work fine for your needs.

thanks ziggy... there seem to be a lot of them for sale on ebay!!! well I say a lot, some at good prices. I don't mind buying from ebay if it seems like a reliable source.
http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_trksid=p2050601.m570.l2632.R2.TR2.TRC1.A0.Xcanon+speedlite+550ex&_nkw=canon+speedlite+550ex&_sacat=64353&_from=R40

lynnma

lynnma wrote: »

thanks ziggy... there seem to be a lot of them for sale on ebay!!! well I say a lot, some at good prices. I don't mind buying from ebay if it seems like a reliable source.
http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_trksid=p2050601.m570.l2632.R2.TR2.TRC1.A0.Xcanon+speedlite+550ex&_nkw=canon+speedlite+550ex&_sacat=64353&_from=R40

Hi ziggy.. one more question.. on the sigma speedlite it looks like it's either full power of 1/16 - is there nothing in between? sorry if this is a really dumb question

ziggy53

lynnma wrote: »

Hi ziggy.. one more question.. on the sigma speedlite it looks like it's either full power of 1/16 - is there nothing in between? sorry if this is a really dumb question

Good catch, I had forgotten about that. 1:1 and 1:16 are the only two options for manual power output.

Edit: In the "Super" version of the same series Sigma flashes they offer from 1:1 through 1:32 in increments. The Super version also has Master/Controller capabilities, as well as Slave capabilities.

lynnma

ziggy53 wrote: »

Good catch, I had forgotten about that. 1:1 and 1:16 are the only two options for manual power output.

Edit: In the "Super" version of the same series Sigma flashes they offer from 1:1 through 1:32 in increments. The Super version also has Master/Controller capabilities, as well as Slave capabilities.

Hi ziggy I'm baaack.... sigh... flailing around in the dark here.. have you hear anything on these Bolt flashes? any input would be appreciated. I'm finding that the canon used ones out there are very "used"..
thanks
Lynn

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/750834-REG/Bolt_VS_510C_Wireless_E_TTL.html

cmason

Since you have a 430EX and a ST-E2, why not just get a used 430EX or 420EX? Thats what I have: a 430EX, and a 420EX. I put them on light stands, and use the ST-E2. Shoot in ETTL mode and then I simply adjust the power using Flash Exposure Compensation and/or the ST-E2 ratios, until I get what I want. I don't mess with a light meter, since the camera is handling that.

You can go manual with the flashes, and just use the ST-E2 as a trigger, but that involves shlepping back and forth to the flashes to adjust things (oh and the 420EX doesn't do manual)

lynnma

cmason wrote: »

Since you have a 430EX and a ST-E2, why not just get a used 430EX or 420EX? Thats what I have: a 430EX, and a 420EX. I put them on light stands, and use the ST-E2. Shoot in ETTL mode and then I simply adjust the power using Flash Exposure Compensation and/or the ST-E2 ratios, until I get what I want. I don't mess with a light meter, since the camera is handling that.

You can go manual with the flashes, and just use the ST-E2 as a trigger, but that involves shlepping back and forth to the flashes to adjust things (oh and the 420EX doesn't do manual)

Hi cmason, I have one 420ex (which I just put on ebay) I've actually been playing with the flash exposure compensation today more and wondering .. hmmm maybe I should just keep it. I was hoping to get more control over flash but maybe considering the level I'm at I should stay with ETTL. I love my new light meter, I was over exposing everything and since I've been using manual mode in my 50D things are looking better... now I just need to master some better lighting. Trouble is.. I keep watching all these wonderful tutorials and of course most of them are trying to sell stuff
I dunno.. I'm a bit of an equipment freak it would seem... took some shots today using flash exposure comp. after metering ambient light and they came out of the camera looking pretty good...

ziggy53

lynnma wrote: »

Hi ziggy I'm baaack.... sigh... flailing around in the dark here.. have you hear anything on these Bolt flashes? any input would be appreciated. I'm finding that the canon used ones out there are very "used"..
thanks
Lynn

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/750834-REG/Bolt_VS_510C_Wireless_E_TTL.html

The "Bolt" line of flashes are too new to recommend. My honest opinion is that I would much rather have an old premium flash, like the the Canon 550EX, than a new flash from an unproven company.

The Sigma line is what I recommend for a third-party flash manufacturer, and my own experience with the Sigma DG Super flashes has been very good with regard to abilities, compatibility and construction, versus cost.

Both of my Canon 580EX flashes were used when I bought them, and no problems there either. I run those especially hard and typically use an external hi-voltage power supply with very rapid recycling.

lynnma

ziggy53 wrote: »

The "Bolt" line of flashes are too new to recommend. My honest opinion is that I would much rather have an old premium flash, like the the Canon 550EX, than a new flash from an unproven company.

The Sigma line is what I recommend for a third-party flash manufacturer, and my own experience with the Sigma DG Super flashes has been very good with regard to abilities, compatibility and construction, versus cost.

Both of my Canon 580EX flashes were used when I bought them, and no problems there either. I run those especially hard and typically use an external hi-voltage power supply with very rapid recycling.

Yeah, you are right ziggy.. just can't find any recommendations on them anywhere. I have removed my 420EX from ebay for now and am experimenting with just using Flash exposure compensation.. seem to get some fair results even tho it's only max of 2 stops down... I'm assuming.. (I don't know) that flash exposure compensation will only be possible when the flash is actually on the camera?? if it's on a stand and I trigger it with my st E2 how will it know about the compensation factor...it can't right? I have a bracket for my camera so I can actually get it quite far from above the camera and also of course a cord (which doesn't go very far) any suggestions??


thanks
Lynn

cmason

FEC works via the ST-E2 just fine, no need to have the flash attached. The settings are sent to the flash via flash pulses sent just before the shutter and flash fire (preflash). this is what can confuse many external light meters.

I will admit that using flashes, whether ETTL or Manual, is among the hardest things I have attempted in photography. If you have ever seen studio pros work, they take many many practice shots, typically long before the shoot, to get the lighting right.

MANDATORY READING is the photonotes.org Canon Flash compendium. I would suggest not attempting any off camera flash work without reading thru this twice. It is eye-opening, educational and getting a bit dated. However, while it doesn't have the latest flash models, it remains completely relevant.

I went to an all day seminar on external flash, with a morning session on Manual flash and an afternoon on ETTL (Flashbus). Anyway, for ETTL, it is critical that you choose the proper camera mode, FEC and ratio (if using more than two flashes). For Manual, the big lesson was to choose the camera settings that essentially eliminated the ambient light or made it a slight fill, then used flashes to create the wanted light. Much work, A seminar is highly recommended.

Finally, when all else fails, truthfully: put the camera on P. It is amazing how after 30 mins of cussing and swearing on Manual, the camera often nails what I wanted. I never use P, except when I don't want to fuss with setting up a flash shot and just want some decent pics. Give it a go, you might be surprised.

lynnma

cmason wrote: »

FEC works via the ST-E2 just fine, no need to have the flash attached. The settings are sent to the flash via flash pulses sent just before the shutter and flash fire (preflash). this is what can confuse many external light meters.

I will admit that using flashes, whether ETTL or Manual, is among the hardest things I have attempted in photography. If you have ever seen studio pros work, they take many many practice shots, typically long before the shoot, to get the lighting right.

MANDATORY READING is the photonotes.org Canon Flash compendium. I would suggest not attempting any off camera flash work without reading thru this twice. It is eye-opening, educational and getting a bit dated. However, while it doesn't have the latest flash models, it remains completely relevant.

I went to an all day seminar on external flash, with a morning session on Manual flash and an afternoon on ETTL (Flashbus). Anyway, for ETTL, it is critical that you choose the proper camera mode, FEC and ratio (if using more than two flashes). For Manual, the big lesson was to choose the camera settings that essentially eliminated the ambient light or made it a slight fill, then used flashes to create the wanted light. Much work, A seminar is highly recommended.

Finally, when all else fails, truthfully: put the camera on P. It is amazing how after 30 mins of cussing and swearing on Manual, the camera often nails what I wanted. I never use P, except when I don't want to fuss with setting up a flash shot and just want some decent pics. Give it a go, you might be surprised.

thanks for response - I hear you. I've been doing tutorial after tutorial and practicing like crazy and have finally got it in my head re shutter speeds and amount of ambient light or flash.. that works, I think you are right tho, I need to work more in the "basics" but I hate the thought of the camera doing the thinking. Dh says, "why did you buy a camera that does everything and then won't let it"
I've managed to get a nice slight fill with using Flash exposure comp down nearly two stops or at least one and a thirdish... I really want to put the flash on a stand so I can move around the subject and not move the light.. light will then stay consistant no matter where I go. Thanks for the info on the ST-E2 - that little critter is gonna be fun.. I was wondering how the info got to the flash across the great divide I'll be sticking to one off camera flash for a while and maybe if I feel I can handle it put a back light behind my subject - I'll figure out the ratios.. (or ask you
thanks again for all your comments, they've really helped. I love the "Mac on Campus" webinas they are free and really informative.. mostly trying to sell you gear but I try to ignore that
Lynn

Gary752

Check out http://www.creativelive.com. If you catch their broadcasts when they are live, you can watch for free. They also re-broadcast that days course several times, until the next one is about to start, for those who can't catch it live. They offer the course at a discounted price while the class is live and during the rebroadcast if you want to have access to view it over and over at a later date, or to download it to your computer. A while back there was one on manual flash by Scott Robert Lim that was very good, and shortly after that there was one on TTL by two guys that I can't remember their names. Click on the link for their catalog for a complete list of courses available to purchase, and also click on the link for their calendar for a list of up coming courses, and watch them live for free.

GaryB