Sam, not that I shoot weddings or anything like it, but I also live in the Bay Area and know some shooters who might get roped into being a second shooter for this person. Can you tell me his name? Private message is fine; I just want to be on the lookout and warn my fellow shooters here.
I am down to the very last request for payment. If I haven't received payment by that time I will start the process of legal remedies and feel free to tell all.
Sam - How long have you been waiting? Did you have a written contract with the primary? I assume you have written letters in addition to going to the office to ask for an appt. If you have not done so yet, you might consider sending him a "demand" letter that warns him you are moving to take legal action. Sometimes you can have success by having an attorney send the demand letter (letters from attorneys threatening further action do got some people's attention, though not everybody is scared off).
Before going straight to small claims court, you will want to speak with the small claims adviser who can tell you all of the procedures and should also advise on other options for resolving this dispute. Some counties have a mediator in the consumer protection division so you might look into that. Could you hire a mediation service that might be less expensive and time-consuming than court?
If you do go to court, you will need any documentation you have. Knowing you, the file is already in order! You also might want to do some basic research on the legal basis for your claim. You could contact the better business bureau to see if there have been other claims against this photographer (whether claims like yours for nonpayment or claims from clients you will want to know that). The more you can be prepared for small claims court, the smoother it will go and should give you an advantage over the defendant. It typically makes a judge happy if he or she has less research to do because they have so many cases on their dockets.
Hopefully, the guy will wake up quickly when you move up a step in your efforts. I'd think he would not want any publicity this might bring him.
If you want resources on small claims court I can send you some links. Best of luck!
Lauren
DISCLAIMER: I am offering unsolicited general information. None of what I have written constitutes legal advice.
"But ask the animals, and they will teach you." (Job 12:7)
The wedding was on Sept, 21, and while there wasn't a written contract the amount owed was never in dispute ether verbally or in writing (email). He just won't pay.
I have sent a letter of demand. Along with this letter of demand, (email, he acknowledged receiving),
I pointed out he did not have a fictitious name statement on file or a business license. If and when a CA city finds out a business is operating without a license they will share this with the CA state board of equalization, and the IRS.
Yes he was taken to small claims court a few years ago by the bride and groom for non performance, and he lost.
The deadline was yesterday, and he sent an email claiming the check is in the mail. We shall see.
I have also taken the UNPRECEDENTED step of reaching out to the couple. The bride responded and provided her phone number. I will be getting in touch with her today. I have no plans on divulging my problems with the primary, but will act dumb claiming difficulty in contacting the primary and find out if they have been in contact and see if they have received any images etc from him.
She also said she saw some of her images on my website ( which she loved ) this is baffling because I didn't give her any information, business card, etc so I am curious how she knew to even look.
Bottom line is come hell or high water, if I get paid or not, this couple will get the images I shot!!
Should have more details today keep posted to " Sam's World" soon to be a daytime soap opera.
I figured you had done a lot of this already. I wonder if the primary told the couple at some point that he would have a second and told them your name. He may have gone into this job with every intention of paying you and giving you credit for your work. Maybe she had caller ID on her phone and just searched the web for you. I will be watching to see what comes next. At least you aren't bored.
"But ask the animals, and they will teach you." (Job 12:7)
I reached out through the wedding event coordinator at the hotel where the reception was held and provided my contact info.
The bride got my website from the coordinator as well as my email and phone number. She went to my website and saw a few images I posted in my wedding section and then sent me an email with her phone number.
We spoke today on the phone and as I feared after 10 weeks they have received NOTHING. She is worried and said the primary hadn't spoken to them in weeks. They are from a large family and at their thanksgiving dinner the family expressed disbelief that they didn't have any of their wedding photos.
They paid $5000.00 up front, so it's not like a cheap under quoted job. If he can't pay me there is no way he will be able to deliver the processed images, video, slide show, and albums.
So sad, for the money they paid they could have hired a really good solid wedding photographer.
I am not sure where this will end up, but it don't look good. :cry
Meaning the images, or the clients' overall experience?
I mean everyone, the primary, the clients and me. I am now in the middle of this and I don't want to be!
While having an up close and personal experience with "no good deed goes unpunished" I also know I have no choice!
I can not run and hide under the bed. I can not sit idly by while an innocent couple loose all their precious wedding photos. While I can't see the couple getting all they are expecting, or even if the contract is technically fulfilled I will bet the ranch the quality will not be there.
I do not claim to be an expert on wedding photography but I know 100 times more than the couple, and what I don't know I can get here!!!
When I spoke to the bride she was totally lost and did not have any idea of what their options are.
They do have a written contract and she was going to review it, but after working with this guy and dealing with the aftermath my guess is the contract has more holes in it then block of swiss cheese.
Update: I just spoke to the bride on the phone and she is sending me the contract to review.
She tried to contact him yesterday, email, phone, text, and you guessed it......no response.
After this issue is cleared up I am not sure how I can standby and say nothing about this guys business practices which will only allow him to screw more unsuspecting couples.
Looks like a Fairmont wedding? Great photos by the way and I'm glad to hear you'll be delivering direct. I am confident in San Jose that you will get your reward some day as long as the story gets around.
I wonder how you got involved with him in the first place? I hate these situations and fortunately they are rare - everyone in business has some scars from trusting the wrong person. Maybe lucky you only lost a days shooting - but I have a feeling this guy WILL pay. Hope so.
Looks like a Fairmont wedding? Great photos by the way and I'm glad to hear you'll be delivering direct. I am confident in San Jose that you will get your reward some day as long as the story gets around.
I wonder how you got involved with him in the first place? I hate these situations and fortunately they are rare - everyone in business has some scars from trusting the wrong person. Maybe lucky you only lost a days shooting - but I have a feeling this guy WILL pay. Hope so.
Chris,
A friend and Fellow Dgrin member shot a weeding or two with him and was scheduled to shot this wedding, but something personal came up for him and he asked if I could cover it for him. There was very little lead time, just a quick phone call and email with the details.
OK, my organic hard drive has a few corrupt sectors. My friend actually checked his calendar when asked to second shoot and he knew immediately he had a scheduling conflict and suggested the primary contact me. This was on or about Aug, 18th.
Latest and maybe the last update. I received a check, and yes it's good. I cashed it (not deposited) yesterday afternoon.
I will be sending out the images to him today.
I must admit there was this little fellow on my shoulder dressed in red with a tail and horns who kept telling me hold off sending the images and see how long it would take before he started to pressure me for the images. My guess is far less than 10 weeks. rofl
I've been asked to shoot a wedding for a colleague of my wife's, based on some random shots I got as a guest at a recent wedding of another colleague of hers. I must say I am *very* reluctant, as wedding photography is sooooo specialized and I have no experience with it. After a bit of arm-twisting on their part I offered to shoot it as a friend, not a professional, and they can pay me whatever they think the photos are worth afterwards. I hate to do business this way, but I can't with a clear mind pretend that I am a professional in this area and actually set a reasonable price. This way, there is not a lot of pressure to perform. I have explained my reasoning, and they have said the don't plan to hire a professional shooter in any case, so I am not displacing anyone by doing this. (That's a hard requirement for any freebies that I do.) I am really doing it as a favor, not for professional advancement, experience or money.
Now if it were their (future) kid's sports team, I'd gladly charge and feel good about it!
Oddly, the photog of recent wedding of my wife's other colleague still has not sent the couple the photos. (The wedding was in early September.) Apparently they have printed out some of my shots for various uses. Three months does sound like a long time to wait for the photos! The primary shooter seemed quite professional in my observation, and she had a second with her who also looked like he knew what he was doing. Not sure what the issue is...
See my recent posts - pretty much the same scenario. Except, instead of offering it for free, I used a good chunk of their not-high, please-oh-please-help-us-out budget to pay experienced pros to come and assist. TOTALLY WORTH EVERY PENNY. It's been pretty much win-win: friends got WONDERFUL wedding coverage for a fraction of what it "should" have cost them (since I absorbed their non-budget into what should have been my own fee), and I got the experience plus the chance to work with two terrific photographers. Consider it as an option if you're not already locked into your arrangement.
Sam, glad you're finally out from under this one. Next!!
See my recent posts - pretty much the same scenario. Except, instead of offering it for free, I used a good chunk of their not-high, please-oh-please-help-us-out budget to pay experienced pros to come and assist. TOTALLY WORTH EVERY PENNY. It's been pretty much win-win: friends got WONDERFUL wedding coverage for a fraction of what it "should" have cost them (since I absorbed their non-budget into what should have been my own fee), and I got the experience plus the chance to work with two terrific photographers. Consider it as an option if you're not already locked into your arrangement.
Sam, glad you're finally out from under this one. Next!!
Good suggestion; and yes, I did see your other posts with some very nice work in challenging situations!
I suspect this couple does not want to pay a real photographer. It's not that they cannot afford it, as they're quite well off (one is a doc and the other has a very successful tech start-up). Dunno why, really, except they want a small and simple wedding. I think they also don't really like traditional wedding photography and they thought my work at the one wedding I shot as a guess was interesting and unusual (whatever that means). For what it's worth they are both very artsy people.
The good news is that almost all of it is outdoors in the Napa Valley north of San Francisco. Even better that it's going to be in the late afternoon for the ceremony, with dancing and partying afterwards. Probably fairly decent light; and if there's one skill I do have it's shooting with available light. Not sure how many people will be attending, but I don't think too many. Thus I hope it won't be too hard to make sure I have shots of all the guests.
Good suggestion; and yes, I did see your other posts with some very nice work in challenging situations!
I suspect this couple does not want to pay a real photographer. It's not that they cannot afford it, as they're quite well off (one is a doc and the other has a very successful tech start-up). Dunno why, really, except they want a small and simple wedding. I think they also don't really like traditional wedding photography and they thought my work at the one wedding I shot as a guess was interesting and unusual (whatever that means). For what it's worth they are both very artsy people.
John,
I just reread this post and I guess I feel the need to comment.
I have no issue with photographers who choose to shoot for free. A gift to a friend, support of a cause, shooting a wedding for a couple who absolutely couldn't afford to pay a photographer.
If these people valued photography and wanted their wedding photographed, they have the ability to seek out a photographer with the style they like, and pay them.
If they came to you with " we don't want traditional wedding photos but love the images we saw on your website, what would you charge to shoot our wedding" that would be a different story.
I suspect if you asked the doctor to provide free health care he would be offended, or if you asked the tech start-up person for free samples they would be thrilled to help out.
Since they have no skin in the game I doubt this couple will appreciate the effort, skill, and the financial commitment you have made in order to be able to shoot their wedding.
Kinda like the gal who hit the lottery for millions yet continued to collect food stamps.
I just reread this post and I guess I feel the need to comment.
I have no issue with photographers who choose to shoot for free. A gift to a friend, support of a cause, shooting a wedding for a couple who absolutely couldn't afford to pay a photographer.
If these people valued photography and wanted their wedding photographed, they have the ability to seek out a photographer with the style they like, and pay them.
If they came to you with " we don't want traditional wedding photos but love the images we saw on your website, what would you charge to shoot our wedding" that would be a different story.
I suspect if you asked the doctor to provide free health care he would be offended, or if you asked the tech start-up person for free samples they would be thrilled to help out.
Since they have no skin in the game I doubt this couple will appreciate the effort, skill, and the financial commitment you have made in order to be able to shoot their wedding.
Kinda like the gal who hit the lottery for millions yet continued to collect food stamps.
Sam
All very good points, Sam.
Regarding shooting for free, my absolutely hard and non-negotiable criterion is that I do not displace a fellow professional shooter who would charge to do this. I'm very sensitive to the fact that photography is a tough business, and the product very undervalued. If I had any inkling--and I will continue to probe on this matter--that this couple would actually pay someone, I'd drop it quickly.
I should also point out that I think they expect to pay me. At least, they've never said they want me to do it for free. We've just never discussed a price.
Soooo...I have decided to take a slightly different approach, in part for the reasons you mentioned. I'm going to strongly suggest that they at least contact a few wedding photographers and get a sense for what this might cost if they engage a real wedding photographer. They might also take a look at the work of these shooters to see what they like. If it is to their taste and they appreciate the value of having this special day memorialized, I'll suggest they go with one of these photographers.
If they decline this option, I'll still offer to shoot their wedding, with the proviso that they pay me what they think it's worth to them after they see the product. I feel comfortable with this approach, as if I do a less-than-great job I won't feel like I have overcharged. But more importantly, if they really like my work AND they have a sense of what they would have paid with another shooter, I'm willing to bet they'll pay me more than what I am comfortable asking for a priori.
They are not inherently cheap people by any means. I think they just don't want to make the whole wedding a big deal and spend many months in the planning process. They're both very busy people, not big on pomp and ceremony, and want to keep it simple. I suspect if they really like my work--also not big on pomp and formality; more of a photojournalistic style--I'll be rewarded appropriately.
I should probably say more generally that I don't really want to make photography anything more than a hobby; admittedly a very serious hobby in which I try to do my best and compare my self with people who do it for a living, but still just a hobby. The only reason I shoot professionally now is that I can't get access to events I'd like to shoot unless the Gettys of the world sponsor me. I'm fine with that; it's low maintenance. However, the whole business side of photography is something I'd like to avoid. I do it enough in my day job, and photography is a nice counterbalance to this.
I throw this in not only a photographer but as a singer, where this conflict also emerges: either charge them and make it a professional arrangement, or do it for free as a gift. Anything in between - such as "pay me what you think I'm worth" - leads to resentment on one side or the other, IME. In either scenario, be VERY VERY CLEAR what is included (eg you'll shoot, but prints on their dime etc).
Anyway, just my experience from two different perspectives - YMMV.
I throw this in not only a photographer but as a singer, where this conflict also emerges: either charge them and make it a professional arrangement, or do it for free as a gift. Anything in between - such as "pay me what you think I'm worth" - leads to resentment on one side or the other, IME. In either scenario, be VERY VERY CLEAR what is included (eg you'll shoot, but prints on their dime etc).
Anyway, just my experience from two different perspectives - YMMV.
Ya know...I've spent too much time on this matter already and I haven't even planned how I'm going to shoot the event. And I really don't want to shoot weddings anyway.
Just sent them an email saying I can't do it.
Not worth the hassle for a hobby...
Thanks for all the advice. I especially like the last bit from Divamum; spot on!
Comments
I am down to the very last request for payment. If I haven't received payment by that time I will start the process of legal remedies and feel free to tell all.
Sam
Before going straight to small claims court, you will want to speak with the small claims adviser who can tell you all of the procedures and should also advise on other options for resolving this dispute. Some counties have a mediator in the consumer protection division so you might look into that. Could you hire a mediation service that might be less expensive and time-consuming than court?
If you do go to court, you will need any documentation you have. Knowing you, the file is already in order! You also might want to do some basic research on the legal basis for your claim. You could contact the better business bureau to see if there have been other claims against this photographer (whether claims like yours for nonpayment or claims from clients you will want to know that). The more you can be prepared for small claims court, the smoother it will go and should give you an advantage over the defendant. It typically makes a judge happy if he or she has less research to do because they have so many cases on their dockets.
Hopefully, the guy will wake up quickly when you move up a step in your efforts. I'd think he would not want any publicity this might bring him.
If you want resources on small claims court I can send you some links. Best of luck!
Lauren
DISCLAIMER: I am offering unsolicited general information. None of what I have written constitutes legal advice.
Lauren Blackwell
www.redleashphoto.com
Thank you for your well thought out response!
The wedding was on Sept, 21, and while there wasn't a written contract the amount owed was never in dispute ether verbally or in writing (email). He just won't pay.
I have sent a letter of demand. Along with this letter of demand, (email, he acknowledged receiving),
I pointed out he did not have a fictitious name statement on file or a business license. If and when a CA city finds out a business is operating without a license they will share this with the CA state board of equalization, and the IRS.
Yes he was taken to small claims court a few years ago by the bride and groom for non performance, and he lost.
The deadline was yesterday, and he sent an email claiming the check is in the mail. We shall see.
I have also taken the UNPRECEDENTED step of reaching out to the couple. The bride responded and provided her phone number. I will be getting in touch with her today. I have no plans on divulging my problems with the primary, but will act dumb claiming difficulty in contacting the primary and find out if they have been in contact and see if they have received any images etc from him.
She also said she saw some of her images on my website ( which she loved
Bottom line is come hell or high water, if I get paid or not, this couple will get the images I shot!!
Should have more details today keep posted to " Sam's World" soon to be a daytime soap opera.
Sam
Lauren Blackwell
www.redleashphoto.com
Bored no, angry and disgusted yes.
I reached out through the wedding event coordinator at the hotel where the reception was held and provided my contact info.
The bride got my website from the coordinator as well as my email and phone number. She went to my website and saw a few images I posted in my wedding section and then sent me an email with her phone number.
We spoke today on the phone and as I feared after 10 weeks they have received NOTHING. She is worried and said the primary hadn't spoken to them in weeks. They are from a large family and at their thanksgiving dinner the family expressed disbelief that they didn't have any of their wedding photos.
They paid $5000.00 up front, so it's not like a cheap under quoted job. If he can't pay me there is no way he will be able to deliver the processed images, video, slide show, and albums.
So sad, for the money they paid they could have hired a really good solid wedding photographer.
I am not sure where this will end up, but it don't look good. :cry
Sam
Meaning the images, or the clients' overall experience?
My SmugMug Portfolio • My Astro-Landscape Photo Blog • Dgrin Weddings Forum
Lauren Blackwell
www.redleashphoto.com
I mean everyone, the primary, the clients and me. I am now in the middle of this and I don't want to be!
While having an up close and personal experience with "no good deed goes unpunished" I also know I have no choice!
I can not run and hide under the bed. I can not sit idly by while an innocent couple loose all their precious wedding photos. While I can't see the couple getting all they are expecting, or even if the contract is technically fulfilled I will bet the ranch the quality will not be there.
I do not claim to be an expert on wedding photography but I know 100 times more than the couple, and what I don't know I can get here!!!
When I spoke to the bride she was totally lost and did not have any idea of what their options are.
They do have a written contract and she was going to review it, but after working with this guy and dealing with the aftermath my guess is the contract has more holes in it then block of swiss cheese.
Update: I just spoke to the bride on the phone and she is sending me the contract to review.
She tried to contact him yesterday, email, phone, text, and you guessed it......no response.
After this issue is cleared up I am not sure how I can standby and say nothing about this guys business practices which will only allow him to screw more unsuspecting couples.
Later,
Sam
I wonder how you got involved with him in the first place? I hate these situations and fortunately they are rare - everyone in business has some scars from trusting the wrong person. Maybe lucky you only lost a days shooting - but I have a feeling this guy WILL pay. Hope so.
Chris,
A friend and Fellow Dgrin member shot a weeding or two with him and was scheduled to shot this wedding, but something personal came up for him and he asked if I could cover it for him. There was very little lead time, just a quick phone call and email with the details.
Sam
Just to set the record straight.
Sam
I will be sending out the images to him today.
I must admit there was this little fellow on my shoulder dressed in red with a tail and horns who kept telling me hold off sending the images and see how long it would take before he started to pressure me for the images. My guess is far less than 10 weeks.
Sam
I've been asked to shoot a wedding for a colleague of my wife's, based on some random shots I got as a guest at a recent wedding of another colleague of hers. I must say I am *very* reluctant, as wedding photography is sooooo specialized and I have no experience with it. After a bit of arm-twisting on their part I offered to shoot it as a friend, not a professional, and they can pay me whatever they think the photos are worth afterwards. I hate to do business this way, but I can't with a clear mind pretend that I am a professional in this area and actually set a reasonable price. This way, there is not a lot of pressure to perform. I have explained my reasoning, and they have said the don't plan to hire a professional shooter in any case, so I am not displacing anyone by doing this. (That's a hard requirement for any freebies that I do.) I am really doing it as a favor, not for professional advancement, experience or money.
Now if it were their (future) kid's sports team, I'd gladly charge and feel good about it!
Oddly, the photog of recent wedding of my wife's other colleague still has not sent the couple the photos. (The wedding was in early September.) Apparently they have printed out some of my shots for various uses. Three months does sound like a long time to wait for the photos! The primary shooter seemed quite professional in my observation, and she had a second with her who also looked like he knew what he was doing. Not sure what the issue is...
Sam, glad you're finally out from under this one. Next!!
Good suggestion; and yes, I did see your other posts with some very nice work in challenging situations!
I suspect this couple does not want to pay a real photographer. It's not that they cannot afford it, as they're quite well off (one is a doc and the other has a very successful tech start-up). Dunno why, really, except they want a small and simple wedding. I think they also don't really like traditional wedding photography and they thought my work at the one wedding I shot as a guess was interesting and unusual (whatever that means). For what it's worth they are both very artsy people.
The good news is that almost all of it is outdoors in the Napa Valley north of San Francisco. Even better that it's going to be in the late afternoon for the ceremony, with dancing and partying afterwards. Probably fairly decent light; and if there's one skill I do have it's shooting with available light. Not sure how many people will be attending, but I don't think too many. Thus I hope it won't be too hard to make sure I have shots of all the guests.
John,
I just reread this post and I guess I feel the need to comment.
I have no issue with photographers who choose to shoot for free. A gift to a friend, support of a cause, shooting a wedding for a couple who absolutely couldn't afford to pay a photographer.
If these people valued photography and wanted their wedding photographed, they have the ability to seek out a photographer with the style they like, and pay them.
If they came to you with " we don't want traditional wedding photos but love the images we saw on your website, what would you charge to shoot our wedding" that would be a different story.
I suspect if you asked the doctor to provide free health care he would be offended, or if you asked the tech start-up person for free samples they would be thrilled to help out.
Since they have no skin in the game I doubt this couple will appreciate the effort, skill, and the financial commitment you have made in order to be able to shoot their wedding.
Kinda like the gal who hit the lottery for millions yet continued to collect food stamps.
Sam
All very good points, Sam.
Regarding shooting for free, my absolutely hard and non-negotiable criterion is that I do not displace a fellow professional shooter who would charge to do this. I'm very sensitive to the fact that photography is a tough business, and the product very undervalued. If I had any inkling--and I will continue to probe on this matter--that this couple would actually pay someone, I'd drop it quickly.
I should also point out that I think they expect to pay me. At least, they've never said they want me to do it for free. We've just never discussed a price.
Soooo...I have decided to take a slightly different approach, in part for the reasons you mentioned. I'm going to strongly suggest that they at least contact a few wedding photographers and get a sense for what this might cost if they engage a real wedding photographer. They might also take a look at the work of these shooters to see what they like. If it is to their taste and they appreciate the value of having this special day memorialized, I'll suggest they go with one of these photographers.
If they decline this option, I'll still offer to shoot their wedding, with the proviso that they pay me what they think it's worth to them after they see the product. I feel comfortable with this approach, as if I do a less-than-great job I won't feel like I have overcharged. But more importantly, if they really like my work AND they have a sense of what they would have paid with another shooter, I'm willing to bet they'll pay me more than what I am comfortable asking for a priori.
They are not inherently cheap people by any means. I think they just don't want to make the whole wedding a big deal and spend many months in the planning process. They're both very busy people, not big on pomp and ceremony, and want to keep it simple. I suspect if they really like my work--also not big on pomp and formality; more of a photojournalistic style--I'll be rewarded appropriately.
I should probably say more generally that I don't really want to make photography anything more than a hobby; admittedly a very serious hobby in which I try to do my best and compare my self with people who do it for a living, but still just a hobby. The only reason I shoot professionally now is that I can't get access to events I'd like to shoot unless the Gettys of the world sponsor me. I'm fine with that; it's low maintenance. However, the whole business side of photography is something I'd like to avoid. I do it enough in my day job, and photography is a nice counterbalance to this.
Anyway, just my experience from two different perspectives - YMMV.
Good advice.
Sam
Just sent them an email saying I can't do it.
Not worth the hassle for a hobby...
Thanks for all the advice. I especially like the last bit from Divamum; spot on!