* challenge participation *

Andy · August 23, 2004

i'm really disappointed in the number of challengers. i love you guys that enter all the time, and we've had a few new entrants joining as the challenges have progressed... but we have over 700 members on dgrin and only 21 entrants this time. c'mon, we need to each of us take on the "challenge" of bringing on a new entrant this time. let's get 30 this times, and shoot for 40 next.

keep talking up the challenges. if you comment on a members pic in the shots area, ask them to look at the challenge - and encourage them. it's a great learning experience for all of us!

Stan · August 23, 2004

Must try harder, sorry

I love the site the critiques thread is the best learning tool there is, with nearly 500 posts in the challenge fortnight it is a great way to learn. Thanks for all your input Andy.

PS they don't bite so give it a try

ginger_55 · August 23, 2004

And I was thinking of sleeping for the nest ten days.

Right now I don't have a car. want a green tree song photo?

Or a dog face? (I think I am too wiped to do that. And some of that stuff that came in at the last minute, fantastic.)

g

Stan · August 23, 2004

ginger_55 wrote:

And I was thinking of sleeping for the nest ten days.

Right now I don't have a car. want a green tree song photo?

Or a dog face? (I think I am too wiped to do that. And some of that stuff that came in at the last minute, fantastic.)

g

Tie a ribbon around the tree and pretend it's an Oak

muddyknees · August 23, 2004

andy wrote:

i'm really disappointed in the number of challengers. i love you guys that enter all the time, and we've had a few new entrants joining as the challenges have progressed... but we have over 700 members on dgrin and only 21 entrants this time. c'mon, we need to each of us take on the "challenge" of bringing on a new entrant this time. let's get 30 this times, and shoot for 40 next.

keep talking up the challenges. if you comment on a members pic in the shots area, ask them to look at the challenge - and encourage them. it's a great learning experience for all of us!

Well, you _almost_ had one more entry... except I couldn't figure out how to link to my photo on smugmug when posting here. (Admittedly that was about 8:30AM pacific time this morning, and had to be at work at 9, but in those few minutes I couldnt find any instructions in FAQ to do that.

I took a bit more time looking for instructions just now - I guess I have to frame my img tag inside of a "URL" VB markup tag? Except when I try that right here and look at "preview post" it seems to get all garbled up...

http://muddyknees.smugmug.com/photos/7646365-L.jpg" target="_blank"><IMG SRC=http://muddyknees.smugmug.com/photos/7646365-L.jpg>

Anyhow, I was thinking of posting http://muddyknees.smugmug.com/photos/7646365-L.jpg

Gary

wxwax · August 24, 2004

Hey muddy, welcome aboard! Here's a thread on how to link photos to this place. It's the the dgrin/smugmug support forum.

If any of it doesn't make sense, lemme know --- now, even Lynn can help.

Short version: with a link that ends in .jpg or .jpeg surround it with and

gubbs · August 24, 2004

If you applied the dgrin entries/members % to FM they would have around 1100 entries in the current weekly challenge... statistics

Andy · August 24, 2004

we're better than fm!

gubbs wrote:

If you applied the dgrin entries/members % to FM they would have around 1100 entries in the current weekly challenge... statistics

interesting stat, gubbsie

we still could have more participation i think though

cmr164 · August 24, 2004

andy wrote:

i'm really disappointed in the number of challengers. i love you guys that enter all the time, and we've had a few new entrants joining as the challenges have progressed... but we have over 700 members on dgrin and only 21 entrants this time. c'mon, we need to each of us take on the "challenge" of bringing on a new entrant this time. let's get 30 this times, and shoot for 40 next.

keep talking up the challenges. if you comment on a members pic in the shots area, ask them to look at the challenge - and encourage them. it's a great learning experience for all of us!

There are thesholds in the organization of the challenges that act to decrease participation. Each sets a different level bar but cumulatively they are substantial.

Suggestions:

1. Remove the pre-judge stage

2. Go back to minimizing PS and maximizing the photo challenge nature.

3. Keep the categories constrained. (ie Trains instead or Song Titles, "wide angle" instead of "time")

4. Reorganize the comments thread so that it is not untterly dominated by a handful of posters. It is too daunting for the newbies to step into the waters.

My premise is that if you do not want the challenge to be the playgraound of a few then you have to consider the ways of upping the inclusion. The first suggestion lets people know that their entry has a chance of garnering votes without being blackballed. The second suggestion lets people know that it is their picture taking abilities that are being judged and not how good they are at cloning in sky or creating fog. Shooters who are not PS experts are less likely to enter if they know the PS expert can fix any shooting flaw and modify any part of a shot. The 3d suggestion tightens the creative categories so as to create a more level and competitive play field and to give the shooter a concrete target.

The 4th suggestion is a harder nut to crack. The comments thread is just out of control. Imagine someone taking a look for the first time midway through the challenge period. One attempt to read the comments thread and they just give up. It is too confusing and too wild, the same photos repeat again and again as people answer posts and sometime with variations so that folks can not even tell which variation is current. I do have some thoughts on this but a reorg of the comments thread deserves to have its own separate discussion.

damonff · August 24, 2004

Nice suggestions Charles. I've found the FM format to be the best: look at the topic; take a picture; submit a picture; vote. The comments section is way too wild. I avoid it altogether because I think that as a photographer, I should feel secure in my belief that my photograph is good. I shouldn't have to rely (and many do) on someone telling me that my work is good. I'm doing this for me after all; maybe others do it for others...don't know. Also, the point that Rutt made so long ago and that was ignored was that the winner of each challenge should be the co-judge of the next challenge. Getting a friend to judge with you is not very objective. Also, there is rampant favoritism, baseless praise for mediocre work, and a general feeling that, if you don't play the game by the rules, for example if you don't participate in the comments and critiques thread, then you have very little hope of making it to the final cut.

cmr164 wrote:

There are thesholds in the organization of the challenges that act to decrease participation. Each sets a different lever bar but cumulatively they are substantial.

Suggestions:

1. Remove the pre-judge stage

2. Go back to minimizing PS and maximizing the photo challenge nature.

3. Keep the categories constrained. (ie Trains instead or Song Titles, "wide angle" instead of "time")

4. Reorganize the comments thread so that it is not untterly dominated by a handful of posters. It is too daunting for the newbies to step into the waters.

My premise is that if you do not want the challenge to be the playgraound of a few then you have to consider the ways of upping the inclusion. The first suggestion lets people know that their entry has a chance of garnering votes without being blackballed. The second suggestion lets people know that it is their picture taking abilities that are being judged and not how good they are at cloning in sky or creating fog. Shooters who are not PS experts are less likely to enter if they know the PS expert can fix any shooting flaw and modify any part of a shot. The 3d suggestion tightens the creative categories so as to create a more level and competitive play field and to give the shooter a concrete target.

The 4th suggestion is a harder nut to crack. The comments thread is just out of control. Imagine someone taking a look for the first time midway through the challenge period. One attempt to read the comments thread and they just give up. It is too confusing and too wild, the same photos repeat again and again as people answer posts and sometime with variations so that folks can not even tell which variation is current. I do have some thoughts on this but a reorg of the comments thread deserves to have its own separate discussion.

Andy · August 24, 2004

comments on chas' post
1. can't remove the pre-judge stage, unless you want the winner to be picked by the judges solely. we can only have 10 entries for voting.

2. ps isn't "maximized" at all. it's just allowed. in fact, i'm much more impressed with an uncropped, modestly ps'd shot than i am with a photoshop wonder (listen to me, eh??? heheheh). it's true though. nobody has to be a ps guru to win the challenges. in fact, i'd say that out of the past nine winners, very little beyond exposure & color adjustments, and perhaps some spot cloning, have been done to the winning images. there could be an exception, but not much of one. look at the winning photos at www.dgrin.smugmug.com

3. the categories are chosen by the participants. it's fun. song titles, hey go out and shoot any type of emotion, then go look on google for an appropriate song title. how hard is that?

4. the comments thread. if a n00b is deterred, not much i can do about it. i think that yes, it's haphazard, but not much can be done about that. it's also and incredible learning experience, for the givers and the givees. and to anyone who would read it, too. other sites just have folks post the shots individually for comment, we could go that route but it's a lot more threads to manage. nobody *has* to use the comments thread. some entrants put photos right into the challenge thread, and that's cool, too.

cmr164 wrote:

There are thesholds in the organization of the challenges that act to decrease participation. Each sets a different lever bar but cumulatively they are substantial.

Suggestions:

1. Remove the pre-judge stage

2. Go back to minimizing PS and maximizing the photo challenge nature.

3. Keep the categories constrained. (ie Trains instead or Song Titles, "wide angle" instead of "time")

4. Reorganize the comments thread so that it is not untterly dominated by a handful of posters. It is too daunting for the newbies to step into the waters.

My premise is that if you do not want the challenge to be the playgraound of a few then you have to consider the ways of upping the inclusion. The first suggestion lets people know that their entry has a chance of garnering votes without being blackballed. The second suggestion lets people know that it is their picture taking abilities that are being judged and not how good they are at cloning in sky or creating fog. Shooters who are not PS experts are less likely to enter if they know the PS expert can fix any shooting flaw and modify any part of a shot. The 3d suggestion tightens the creative categories so as to create a more level and competitive play field and to give the shooter a concrete target.

The 4th suggestion is a harder nut to crack. The comments thread is just out of control. Imagine someone taking a look for the first time midway through the challenge period. One attempt to read the comments thread and they just give up. It is too confusing and too wild, the same photos repeat again and again as people answer posts and sometime with variations so that folks can not even tell which variation is current. I do have some thoughts on this but a reorg of the comments thread deserves to have its own separate discussion.

Andy · August 24, 2004

comment on damon's post
i applaud your confindence in your work, and that's how i'd be doing it too, if i were a contestant.

there's plenty of learning going on in the comments thread = trust me.

i'll make up a vote regarding having the winner co-judge the next challenge. as far as your implication that "having a friend co-judge is not very objective" well, damon, i resent the implication, and i'm offended at your assertion. these are people i know, yes. but they are also respected photographers, and of themselves beyond reproach. you've managed to offend me and several other people in a short sentence. do you think i do this because i have gobs and gobs of free time? i do it becuase i love photography, and i enjoy providing this service to dgrin. finally, i object strongly to your assertion that there is "rampant favoritism" in the judging, and that "if you don't participate in the comments and critiques thread, then you have very little hope of making it to the final cut." you make it to the finals by being among the 10 best entrants into the challenge. i take the judging very seriously, and so do the other judges. again, you've managed to offend me and several others in a new york minute. perhaps this challenge isn't suited for you, which is a shame, becuase i enjoy your photographs and your work.

am i pissed off? you bet i am. i put in many hours for these challenges, and i've taken great care to make it as fair and fun as possible. for you to tell me that i've done otherwise is baseless and untrue.

make it like fredmiranda's? hey that's fine - lot's less work on my part, no critiques to do, nothing really to do at all. i'd free up a couple hours a week. more time for pitchas...

damonff wrote:

Nice suggestions Charles. I've found the FM format to be the best: look at the topic; take a picture; submit a picture; vote. The comments section is way too wild. I avoid it altogether because I think that as a photographer, I should feel secure in my belief that my photograph is good. I shouldn't have to rely (and many do) on someone telling me that my work is good. I'm doing this for me after all; maybe others do it for others...don't know. Also, the point that Rutt made so long ago and that was ignored was that the winner of each challenge should be the co-judge of the next challenge. Getting a friend to judge with you is not very objective. Also, there is rampant favoritism, baseless praise for mediocre work, and a general feeling that, if you don't play the game by the rules, for example if you don't participate in the comments and critiques thread, then you have very little hope of making it to the final cut.

cmr164 · August 24, 2004

andy wrote:

1. can't remove the pre-judge stage, unless you want the winner to be picked by the judges solely. we can only have 10 entries for voting.

Then perhaps weeding from the bottom and not from the top.

andy wrote:

2. ps isn't "maximized" at all. it's just allowed. in fact, i'm much more impressed with an uncropped, modestly ps'd shot than i am with a photoshop wonder (listen to me, eh??? heheheh). it's true though. nobody has to be a ps guru to win the challenges. in fact, i'd say that out of the past nine winners, very little beyond exposure & color adjustments, and perhaps some spot cloning, have been done to the winning images. there could be an exception, but not much of one. look at the winning photos at www.dgrin.smugmug.com

You know, the image of the horse in a cloud of dust and gnats is a fantastic shot, but it could be totally created and we would not really know. Just the fact that, that level of PS is allowed leaves doubt about any winning photo.

andy wrote:

3. the categories are chosen by the participants. it's fun. song titles, hey go out and shoot any type of emotion, then go look on google for an appropriate song title. how hard is that?

So literally any picture can enter. That leaves no real constraints at all and leaves too much room for anger and disappointment when folks are cut for being not enough in the category. We saw that already. But it also leaves too little direction for the entering photgrapher. Give them a concrete assignment and you will get more entries.

andy wrote:

4. the comments thread. if a n00b is deterred, not much i can do about it. i think that yes, it's haphazard, but not much can be done about that. it's also and incredible learning experience, for the givers and the givees. and to anyone who would read it, too. other sites just have folks post the shots individually for comment, we could go that route but it's a lot more threads to manage. nobody *has* to use the comments thread. some entrants put photos right into the challenge thread, and that's cool, too.

I do put mine directly in as does Damon and some others.

One way the comments thread could be cleaned up is to not allow the posting of images at all. Thumbs of the entered pics can be in the top post for reference. Have the comments thread be comments about the entered photos. Let folks create their own threads in the various side categories (people/landscape/etc) for additional comments. That will widen the discussions in the other parts of Dgrin and uncomplicate the comments thread.

I would be more than happy to discuss this with you offline. Send me a pm with a number and I'll happily ring you (my dime) and flesh out these ideas and issues.

damonff · August 24, 2004

Well, there is definitely some disagreement here. I don't think that the challenge host is benevolent anymore (no offense Andy). I will, of course, continue to participate in the challenges but I doubt, well, I doubt. Maybe you should take a break Andy and become a participant. I'm sure people would love to compete against you. I don't doubt that there is learning going on...in fact I'm sure there is. Many contributors have made great strides in their work...I've seen it and it's a great thing. To say that this challenge may not be suited for me I think is quite childish. Are we on the playground? The truth hurts, they say. I think that the challenge host should be objective and uninvolved with the comments and critiques thread. If the challenge host is involved in the screening process, it's unfair and DOES speak to favoritism whether the challenge host accepts it or not. So, we must continue to disagree on this Andy. Thanks for the praise. If I offended anyone, that may be part of the learning process as well. It wasn't intended to offend, only inform. Many former contributors were offended in the past and that's why they no longer contribute...has anyone seen a Humungus submission lately?

wxwax · August 24, 2004

This isn't a math test. It's a subjective evaluation of what is at worst a craft, at best an art. There are going to be disappointments and disagreements. We're all adults. Deal with it. Don't impugn the integrity of others. OK?

Creativity in interpreting the challenges is part of the challenge. FM's are plenty open to creative interpretation... and Photochop manipulation. Not to mention studio work, which often wins. In the end, a good shot is a good shot. It will be recognized most of the time. Personally, I'm not on board with what I interpret as dumbing down the competition. I'm for improving the quality of the work, including the cerebral part of getting a creative idea.

If you really believe there's rampant favoritism, how does having a past winner pick the finalists solve the problem? Huh?

Explain to me the problem with a thread that gets tons of views, tons of posts and is friendly and welcoming the newcomers.

This isn't an art gallery, where you post a pic and sit back waiting for praise. It's an interactive online forum, a conversation, a place for sharing ideas, work, information. And for learning.

We could split Comments and Suggestions into individual threads. In what way does that change the dynamic, except for making us click through more threads?

I can prove that participation in the C&C thread has made the participants better photographers. Can you prove otherwise?

Newbies will always, everywhere, be hesitant to dip a toe in the water. All online forums, everywhere, are intimidating to newcomers. It's a fact of life. Gubbs' observation regarding FM statistics supports this. The C&C thread is as warm and cuddly as it could possibly be - to a fault, some would say.

I will tell you that what is more likely to drive people away is this friction right here, this silly squabbling.

I reluctantly accept that a little controversy is a good thing. I don't much care for conflict. But every online forum I've visited has it. So I accept that it's part of human nature. Just be careful with baseless aspersions about people's character. I won't put up with that.

lynnma · August 24, 2004

wxwax wrote:

This isn't a math test. It's a subjective evaluation of what is at worst a craft, at best an art. There are going to be disappointments and disagreements. We're all adults. Deal with it. Don't impugn the integrity of others. OK?

Creativity in interpreting the challenges is part of the challenge. FM's are plenty open to creative interpretation... and Photochop manipulation. Not to mention studio work, which often wins. In the end, a good shot is a good shot. It will be recognized most of the time. Personally, I'm not on board with what I interpret as dumbing down the competition. I'm for improving the quality of the work, including the cerebral part of getting a creative idea.

If you really believe there's rampant favoritism, how does having a past winner pick the finalists solve the problem? Huh?

Explain to me the problem with a thread that gets tons of views, tons of posts and is friendly and welcoming the newcomers.

This isn't an art gallery, where you post a pic and sit back waiting for praise. It's an interactive online forum, a conversation, a place for sharing ideas, work, information. And for learning.

We could split Comments and Suggestions into individual threads. In what way does that change the dynamic, except for making us click through more threads?

I can prove that participation in the C&C thread has made the participants better photographers. Can you prove otherwise?

Newbies will always, everywhere, be hesitant to dip a toe in the water. All online forums, everywhere, are intimidating to newcomers. It's a fact of life. Gubbs' observation regarding FM statistics supports this. The C&C thread is as warm and cuddly as it could possibly be - to a fault, some would say.

I will tell you that what is more likely to drive people away is this friction right here, this silly squabbling.

I reluctantly accept that a little controversy is a good thing. I don't much care for conflict. But every online forum I've visited has it. So I accept that it's part of human nature. Just be careful with baseless aspersions about people's character. I won't put up with that.

I agree that the c and c thread is a muddle, I said so before and I'm not sure how to resolve that. The more I read the more I realize that maybe it does'nt matter??? maybe the interaction, the learning process is worth the hassle of plowing through repetative posts. I get weary of it sometimes as others do but I always go back and try to read again.. I'm on the bench re the c and c thread..but when I think of it not being there I feel a sense of loss.. so maybe that says it right there.

Regarding Damons comments

"Getting a friend to judge with you is not very objective. Also, there is rampant favoritism, baseless praise for mediocre work, and a general feeling that, if you don't play the game by the rules, for example if you don't participate in the comments and critiques thread, then you have very little hope of making it to the final cut."

I was immediately shocked and confused by these comments Damon. I wondered out loud if you were having a bad hair day. I don't consider having Andy, a prof. photographer invite another prof. photographer as "getting a friend to judge". I think it's great that we have this resource to pull on. The rampant favoritism part is way off base in my opinon Damon.. do you really believe that?? I'm surprised at you. I have voted to have the winning entrant be the judge along with Andy, not because I feel its not fair to have Andy's invited guest but because hopefully it will take some flack and worklode off Andy's shoulders.

I have never felt that if one does'nt participate in the c and c thread that you have little hope of making it. I've always assumed that the folks that don't post there feel confident in their own choice of shot. Others of us are not that confident yet.. we are newbies. I've been taking photographs since Dec 2003 and still need a lot of help in all departments.

Yes the c and c is a muddle, and sometimes when I'm tired I can hardly face it and I wish it wern't so repetative but I guess this is'nt a perfect world and thinking it through all morning I've decided I'd rather have it, muddle and all, than lose it.

Sorry to go on so.. I was feeling sad this morning after read the posts. We are real people, trying really hard... this means a lot to all of us.
Funny thing.. I thought this morning "maybe we should post anonymously" impossible of course but I recken I would know who each photograph belonged to. Thats how well we know each other. To the newbies I say... come on in guys and dolls, don't be afraid.
lynn

cmr164 · August 24, 2004

I wish you had not interspersed your rebuttal of my meant to be helpful suggestions with your rant on personal attacks. It leaves no room for further online discussion.

As for Damon's concerns, those are obviously real concerns that took courage for him to speak of publicly. The fact that he did so makes me think that the appearance of fairness has been badly tarnished, not just for him but for others as well. I can wish that he was more diplomatic. Not so much because he is out of line but because the issues that bother him have at least perceived substance even if they are not actually the case and it is harder to discuss them once the fur on the backs of the necks are standing up.

I really would like to see those issues go away but ranting is not going to make that happen. Maybe only time and a very careful observance of the appearance of propriety will help. Certainly the-emperer-has-no-clothes denials don't do much in terms of putting those concerns at rest.

As for my suggestions, if Andy had not invited comment with this thread, I would not have made them. They were intended to be useful and helpful and were offered with the belief that Andy is truly interested in increasing participation. There was no personal attacks in the suggestions and I would hope no offense taken.

wxwax wrote:

This isn't a math test. It's a subjective evaluation of what is at worst a craft, at best an art. There are going to be disappointments and disagreements. We're all adults. Deal with it. Don't impugn the integrity of others. OK?

Creativity in interpreting the challenges is part of the challenge. FM's are plenty open to creative interpretation... and Photochop manipulation. Not to mention studio work, which often wins. In the end, a good shot is a good shot. It will be recognized most of the time. Personally, I'm not on board with what I interpret as dumbing down the competition. I'm for improving the quality of the work, including the cerebral part of getting a creative idea.

If you really believe there's rampant favoritism, how does having a past winner pick the finalists solve the problem? Huh?

Explain to me the problem with a thread that gets tons of views, tons of posts and is friendly and welcoming the newcomers.

This isn't an art gallery, where you post a pic and sit back waiting for praise. It's an interactive online forum, a conversation, a place for sharing ideas, work, information. And for learning.

We could split Comments and Suggestions into individual threads. In what way does that change the dynamic, except for making us click through more threads?

I can prove that participation in the C&C thread has made the participants better photographers. Can you prove otherwise?

Newbies will always, everywhere, be hesitant to dip a toe in the water. All online forums, everywhere, are intimidating to newcomers. It's a fact of life. Gubbs' observation regarding FM statistics supports this. The C&C thread is as warm and cuddly as it could possibly be - to a fault, some would say.

I will tell you that what is more likely to drive people away is this friction right here, this silly squabbling.

I reluctantly accept that a little controversy is a good thing. I don't much care for conflict. But every online forum I've visited has it. So I accept that it's part of human nature. Just be careful with baseless aspersions about people's character. I won't put up with that.

Andy · August 24, 2004

you seem to be upset that i occassionally pop into the comments and critiques thread, and yup i do that. sure, it may tip my hand to one of the 10 that i'm going to select as a finalist, but *that's* the point, damon, is to give folks an idea of what constitutes a finalist photo, isn't it? not everyone who enters the challenges is as confident in their work as you -- and i will do everything possible to encourage new folks, and notsonew folks as well, to stretch themselves, and grow as photographers.

tell me - if you don't get picked at fred miranda as a finalist, do you complain to fred or dachsund woof? i doubt it. you keep on, keepin' on. you enter the next wa or ma and life goes on. there's little or no interaction there, don't get me wrong it's a fine format, and also very challenging level of photography there - tough to win one of those, let me tell you.

the truth hurts? hmm well, i can tell you that i have no worries about my objectivity, none whatsoever. i'm not afraid to call 'em like i see 'em. i have told folks that a certain shot is pure dreck, and told them when they are spot-on, as well. i'll continue to do so. inside the c & c thread, in other forums here on dgrin, and in the challenge thread.

dj-s1 said something in the voting thread that was pretty cool: "We need to remember also that the judges only pick the final 10; that leaves a lot of room for error. It's all of us who determine the winner."

cheers damon, and i truly am looking forward to seeing more of your work, and more of your participation in the challenges!

regarding humungus? well, he packed up his marbles and left, didn't he? i can't explain why, and i'm sorry that he's gone becuase he's a good photographer and a fun contributor. as sid has said, this is a photographic challenge, supposed to be fun, which i believe for most folks, it is. it is for me, except for this nonsense. yeah, we'll disagree, you and i. obviously you feel the way you do about my objectivity. that's cool - you are entitled to feel how you feel. i'm going to continue to do what i'm doing though.

i have constantly monitored the temperature of the challenge participants feelings regarding the format, rules, etc. and i'll continue to do so, heck, i even put the co-judging thing up for a vote. seems like folks want the prior winner to co-judge, and that's cool with me. it makes my life easier actually, becuase i don't have to constantly email different folks and get commitments from really busy photographers...

damonff wrote:

Well, there is definitely some disagreement here. I don't think that the challenge host is benevolent anymore (no offense Andy). I will, of course, continue to participate in the challenges but I doubt, well, I doubt. Maybe you should take a break Andy and become a participant. I'm sure people would love to compete against you. I don't doubt that there is learning going on...in fact I'm sure there is. Many contributors have made great strides in their work...I've seen it and it's a great thing. To say that this challenge may not be suited for me I think is quite childish. Are we on the playground? The truth hurts, they say. I think that the challenge host should be objective and uninvolved with the comments and critiques thread. If the challenge host is involved in the screening process, it's unfair and DOES speak to favoritism whether the challenge host accepts it or not. So, we must continue to disagree on this Andy. Thanks for the praise. If I offended anyone, that may be part of the learning process as well. It wasn't intended to offend, only inform. Many former contributors were offended in the past and that's why they no longer contribute...has anyone seen a Humungus submission lately?

muddyknees · August 24, 2004

wxwax wrote:

Hey muddy, welcome aboard! Here's a thread on how to link photos to this place. It's the the dgrin/smugmug support forum.

If any of it doesn't make sense, lemme know --- now, even Lynn can help.

Short version: with a link that ends in .jpg or .jpeg surround it with

Oh, OK, thanks.

Now to get busy recalling song titles so I can try it out next time

Gary

lynnma · August 24, 2004

wxwax wrote:

Hey muddy, welcome aboard! Here's a thread on how to link photos to this place. It's the the dgrin/smugmug support forum.

If any of it doesn't make sense, lemme know --- now, even Lynn can help.

Short version: with a link that ends in .jpg or .jpeg surround it with

What.. pray tell Sidney makes you think I can remember???

DaveW · August 24, 2004

Just a couple of comments as a relative newcomer...

The challenges here are appealing for a few reasons
- a small, relatively supportive group of people involved in it
- 'feedback' to let you understand what people do and don't like

That being said, the 'Comments and Critiques' thread is a bit of a nightmare. 500 replies?? That's an awful lot to causually wade through - keeping the conversation straight - or even just trying to find feedback can be a pain. IF you were to say, double the number of participants, the whole C&C thread would quickly become nearly unreadable - 500 replies to the last challenge - and doubling the number of participants will increase that number geometrically...

Unfortunately, I'm not sure what the solution is to make the C&C thread more manageable.
I skipped the last challenge (no time to shoot, no real 'wide angle' lens) - I'll start working on something inspired by a song title...

Dave W

lynnma · August 24, 2004

DaveW wrote:

Just a couple of comments as a relative newcomer...

The challenges here are appealing for a few reasons
- a small, relatively supportive group of people involved in it
- 'feedback' to let you understand what people do and don't like

That being said, the 'Comments and Critiques' thread is a bit of a nightmare. 500 replies?? That's an awful lot to causually wade through - keeping the conversation straight - or even just trying to find feedback can be a pain. IF you were to say, double the number of participants, the whole C&C thread would quickly become nearly unreadable - 500 replies to the last challenge - and doubling the number of participants will increase that number geometrically...

Unfortunately, I'm not sure what the solution is to make the C&C thread more manageable.
I skipped the last challenge (no time to shoot, no real 'wide angle' lens) - I'll start working on something inspired by a song title...

Dave W

Thanks for the feed back Dave.. this song title challenge is going to be fun I think.. methinks it will get really silly.

DaveW · August 24, 2004

Actually, now that I think on it a little more I do have one possible idea for making comments and critiques a bit easier to work with.

It's a little clunky, but perhpas it will inspire someone to come up with a better solution.

It requires the creation of a 'Current challenge' forum - each person entering and looking for feedback could create their own thread. Thus, each person's images could be in one thread, along with comments, improvements, crops, additional photo's etc - making things much easier to follow. 40 people would thus create 40 threads (plus probably a sticky 'guidelines/rules/etc) admin thread).

The downside is that it would make it easier to skip over or 'miss' some peoples entries. It would mean more clicking, but it would be easier to follow casually. It would also require 'purging' or 'archiving' once a challenge is closed. Not a perfect solution by any means, but just an idea.

bikehiker · August 25, 2004

I guess I read these out of order, but I saw the new challenge 1st and still like the idea, I haven't posted much, but I do a lot of reading and learning so when I do post it will hopefully be better than the last. I myself appreciate Andy and anyone else to give their time & honest/professional opinion.

ginger_55 · August 25, 2004

Accidentally, I stumbled on this thread, saw it yesterday, but only at the beginning.

Now I understand some of the hurt and anger that has caused the overall change in dGrin's comments and critique page. I can see that this could have been a catalyst to change.

Now, I don't know how to say this. Yes, I had more time to read and post. I have won one Challenge, that is all, in my time here.

I think I was helped by Andy, yes I do. Did I mind, no I loved it, actually. I even remarked that that was more important to me than winning a Challenge.

I don't know what is going to happen. You all are looking at things from your perspective. Your businesses, your lifestyle. Your time constraints.

And from some very strange places, like is a photograph manufactured? Lots of photographs could be said to be "manufactured" in a way. The degree is not usually an issue, how good it is is the issue. We had a "no photoshop" challenge.

I rarely go beyond that as I don't know how, and it has never been my style to put a lot of time and effort in this.

You all know that I liked things the way they were. Everyone in my life was happy, as I was happy. My therapist was beaming, I had a life. I got a commission out of one of the photos I took for an assignment.

I do not, do not at all, like FM's style, so it is pretty much a given that I don't like the new one here.

I have only taken about 6 xanax, my car is ready, it can stay there. This was my life, not that that should be an issue, the only one it is an issue for is me.

Neither should it have been an issue that some people came in an complained, and finally things changed. Good luck.

I have not made any plans yet. As people sometimes do, I might see how this shakes down, if lucky, I will learn to live without it. I do have a bunch of new photography books, that I would send to people with photoshop, who have not been a part of this campaign to change things.

Hope your lives go easy. Answer a phone for me sometime.

g

Any help that Andy has given me has been greatly appreciated. As a hint, you do not get help by attacking the person you want help from.

dkapp · August 25, 2004

ginger_55 wrote:

Accidentally, I stumbled on this thread, saw it yesterday, but only at the beginning.

Now I understand some of the hurt and anger that has caused the overall change in dGrin's comments and critique page. I can see that this could have been a catalyst to change.

Now, I don't know how to say this. Yes, I had more time to read and post. I have won one Challenge, that is all, in my time here.

I think I was helped by Andy, yes I do. Did I mind, no I loved it, actually. I even remarked that that was more important to me than winning a Challenge.

I don't know what is going to happen. You all are looking at things from your perspective. Your businesses, your lifestyle. Your time constraints.

And from some very strange places, like is a photograph manufactured? Lots of photographs could be said to be "manufactured" in a way. The degree is not usually an issue, how good it is is the issue. We had a "no photoshop" challenge.

I rarely go beyond that as I don't know how, and it has never been my style to put a lot of time and effort in this.

You all know that I liked things the way they were. Everyone in my life was happy, as I was happy. My therapist was beaming, I had a life. I got a commission out of one of the photos I took for an assignment.

I do not, do not at all, like FM's style, so it is pretty much a given that I don't like the new one here.

I have only taken about 6 xanax, my car is ready, it can stay there. This was my life, not that that should be an issue, the only one it is an issue for is me.

Neither should it have been an issue that some people came in an complained, and finally things changed. Good luck.

I have not made any plans yet. As people sometimes do, I might see how this shakes down, if lucky, I will learn to live without it. I do have a bunch of new photography books, that I would send to people with photoshop, who have not been a part of this campaign to change things.

Hope your lives go easy. Answer a phone for me sometime.

g

Any help that Andy has given me has been greatly appreciated. As a hint, you do not get help by attacking the person you want help from.

Will you please just give this a try? I'm not sure how many of these posts I can stand to read.

Sorry, but the truth.

Dave

ginger_55 · August 25, 2004

Dave. a strong a valuable hint: just quit reading them. You have been out of my life since the dog incident when I did not get the 55mm dog shot off of the wide challenge soon enough.

I should not even sling that mud, it is not relevant and mud doesnt help anything much.

But the reading thing is simple, and IMO, always has been, don't.

ginger

dkapp · August 25, 2004

ginger_55 wrote:

Dave. a strong a valuable hint: just quit reading them. You have been out of my life since the dog incident when I did not get the 55mm dog shot off of the wide challenge soon enough.

I should not even sling that mud, it is not relevant and mud doesnt help anything much.

But the reading thing is simple, and IMO, always has been, don't.

ginger

It's hard to say this to a woman of your age, but grow up. There is more to life than the C&C thread. I understand your not happy with the change, but enough is enough.

Dave

ginger_55 · August 25, 2004

dkapp wrote:

It's hard to say this to a woman of your age, but grow up. There is more to life than the C&C thread. I understand your not happy with the change, but enough is enough.

Dave

Dave, you could grow up, drop the hypocracy, and understand that all lives are not like yours.

just quit reading any post I might make. If I ever enten another Challenge, don't vote for me.

I am sure, as you implied, there are more important things in your life.

g (putting on her purple hat) I am taking my own advice, I will no longer respond to your posts, won't read them.

dugmar · August 25, 2004

ginger_55 wrote:

Dave, you could grow up, drop the hypocracy, and understand that all lives are not like yours.

just quit reading any post I might make. If I ever enten another Challenge, don't vote for me.

I am sure, as you implied, there are more important things in your life.

g (putting on her purple hat) I am taking my own advice, I will no longer respond to your posts, won't read them.

The reason I post and read here is to NOT read dribble like this. It is so common on the internet community today, regardless of subject. This is unfortunate.

Doug

gubbs · August 25, 2004

I reckon that's enough (too much) now...
Can we just leave it and get on with photography