Users of the D4, or other dual card cameras

Helvegr

Hi all,

Just looking for a little feedback. I'm still getting a little use to the dual card slots on the D4. I'm looking to see how you guys typically configure your cards. Currently based on my available cards I've been shooting a 16GB XQD card and a 16GB CF card in a "backup" configuration.

However the number of frames I'm shooting leads me to change cards more often and when I do, its a double change, and a little more trouble to make sure I keep the backup card with the primary card.

Lately I've been considering a couple different approaches.

1. Get a large (64 GB+) CF card for the 2nd slot to serve as backup. So I can swap a single 16GB card in the primary, and leave the 2nd alone and end up with a single backup card.

2. Forget the backup, and simply throw in like a 32GB CF card to use as overflow, and just shoot the 16GB cards in the primary. If the timing to swap cards is wrong, let it overflow to the CF and swap when I can.


Things going through my mind:
1. I love the speed of the XQD cards. Do any of the options I'm considering have any major impacts to that? Does the speed or size of the 2nd card impact the first slot?

2. I struggle a little with the balance between going to bigger cards and not having all my eggs in one basket so to speak. I don't do weddings, but I sure hate to lose ALL images to a faulty card.

Sorry for rambling. Thoughts, feedback or personal preference appreciated!

NikonsandVstroms

I recently bought a D7100 which due to the small buffer really needs the fastest card, right now I have a 64 GB 80 mb/s SD in the primary slot but the plan is to get a faster 32 GB card and have that be a primary and then use the 64 for overflow. I'm sure cards do fail I've just never had it happen so for most cases this is how I'd set it up unless it was a case where I need the shots no matter what.

Matthew Saville

For very important work such as weddings, I would recommend using one huge SD card such as a 64 GB or a 128 GB, and leave it in all day long, and then swap CF cards every 300-600 images. (Whatever capacity that means for your camera, from 12 megapixels to 36 megapixels and depending on your RAW compression preferences...)

If you don't have a huge SD card but you want redundancy, some people put small JPGs on the SD card and then RAW on the CF's. However I prefer to shoot RAW to both cards. But I do set my cameras to 12-bit RAW and lossy compression. It really doesn't seem to harm the images at all as far as I can tell...


However for extreme adventures where I simply hate opening any part of my camera if I don't need to, or for video recording where you rapidly consume space, I just do "overflow".

=Matt=

JimKarczewski

I will say I've had my first card failure in 7 years. A Lexar 1000x UDMA 7 card. I was shooting football, downloaded the images to my laptop (only the locked ones, not all as I don't havd USB3 ports on my laptop, YET) Got home, stuck it in my Lexar Reader (Dual USB3, I use a Multi 7 card Lexar reader for my laptop, and Windows popped up, "Do you want to format g:" Uhm. What? Well, the 32GB Card only shows as 32MB now (1/1000 as much space.) After contacting Lexar, trying their recovery software the card was deemed bad, and I've been using these cards non-stop for the last year. So if I ever happen to shoot a wedding (more likely second shoot) I believe from now on, just to be safe I'm going to write to both cards. As I can't afford a 128GB Card and swap out my 32's when full. (128GB are stilll big money, $600EA)

Ferguson

In the D800 I do something like Matt suggested, I keep a 128gig SD in as backup, but I use a 64 Gig primary and try never to change cards in the field. To me that's begging for problems. Only time I open it up is if I'm trying to deliver photos during a shoot.

In the D4 when I bought the XQD it was a bit small, but I do the same, using the XQD as backup. That way the card coming out and into the card reader is the CF in both cases so I don't have to carry two card readers with me. So twice (but only twice out of hundreds of shoots) I've run out of space on the backup, at which point I turn off backup mode and am at risk for those few shots (in both cases it was in overtime in a soccer match when I ran out of space).

I leave backup mode on routinely. While 95% of the time what I'm shooting might not be important, it is annoying to have a card fail and possibly lose everything, so why not? The only downside is the buffer fills more quickly. On the D800 that's a substantial issue if shooting bursts, but generally if I need to shoot bursts I'm using the D4 and it has a heck of a buffer no matter card speed, and is not a real problem. If for some shoot it becomes a problem a few clicks and I turn off backup mode and get more buffer (I have yet to actually do this).

Helvegr

Thank you all for the responses. I think I'd be inclined for a big backup card, but as mentioned those big CF cards aren't cheap.

Ferguson wrote: »

I leave backup mode on routinely. While 95% of the time what I'm shooting might not be important, it is annoying to have a card fail and possibly lose everything, so why not? The only downside is the buffer fills more quickly. On the D800 that's a substantial issue if shooting bursts, but generally if I need to shoot bursts I'm using the D4 and it has a heck of a buffer no matter card speed, and is not a real problem. If for some shoot it becomes a problem a few clicks and I turn off backup mode and get more buffer (I have yet to actually do this).

Quick question on this. Do you have any further information about how backup mode impacts the buffer? I had always wondered about this, especially with the D4. Its am amazing buffer with those XQD cards because they are so fast. But You suggest that backup mode impacts that buffer? If this is the case, I'm guessing that the backup also writes from the buffer? I'd almost think that it would write from the primary card. Otherwise, you could but a screaming fast XQD card in your primary, but a slow CF in the secondary, and you buffer would reflect the slowest card?

Ferguson

Helvegr wrote: »

Quick question on this. Do you have any further information about how backup mode impacts the buffer? I had always wondered about this, especially with the D4. Its am amazing buffer with those XQD cards because they are so fast. But You suggest that backup mode impacts that buffer? If this is the case, I'm guessing that the backup also writes from the buffer? I'd almost think that it would write from the primary card. Otherwise, you could but a screaming fast XQD card in your primary, but a slow CF in the secondary, and you buffer would reflect the slowest card?

I did limited testing on the D4 but pretty extensive on the D800 and when running in backup mode, the two cards are written sequentially. Or at least the time to write is the sum of the times to write if used alone.

When shooting continuously the number of shots before it pauses is a combination of the buffer itself, plus the number of shots that it can write to the card(s) during this period.

Since the time is additive, it means to maximize the buffer in backup mode you need both to be high speed cards. There are all sorts of tests published out there with different card speeds in combinations and how many sequential shots you can get.

But the short version from me is that the D800 buffer is so short that long bursts aren't going to be practical regardless, and the D4 is so long that it is very rare you hit the limit regardless of cards. So I just buy good medium speed cards (like 600MBs for CF), and spend the money on size, not speed.

Your mileage may vary depending on camera and shooting style of course.

PS. And just for the record, it's REALLY stupid that I have two cameras and THREE card types between them. Come on Nikon, pick ONE per camera max, please. Almost any one, but ONE!

Trikster

Just one quick thought that I figured I would pass along here (and I am sure most of you already know this) but don't constantly format the cards after a shoot. Just delete your images. Believe it or not, formatting will wear the card out faster than just deleting the images off the card.

On my old D7000, I had a couple 32GB cards I used for primary/RAW and then a slow 16GB for Fine JPG. I used the small card for proofs/backup.

Helvegr

Ferguson wrote: »

PS. And just for the record, it's REALLY stupid that I have two cameras and THREE card types between them. Come on Nikon, pick ONE per camera max, please. Almost any one, but ONE!

I keep pretending that Nikon is going to offer an update to the D4 to swap out the card slot for a double XQD. They just didn't do it at launch because of the new format. Granted that is just pretend, but wouldn't it be nice!

Matthew Saville

Trikster wrote: »

Just one quick thought that I figured I would pass along here (and I am sure most of you already know this) but don't constantly format the cards after a shoot. Just delete your images. Believe it or not, formatting will wear the card out faster than just deleting the images off the card.

On my old D7000, I had a couple 32GB cards I used for primary/RAW and then a slow 16GB for Fine JPG. I used the small card for proofs/backup.

BAD IDEA. Formatting your card is more healthy for the safety of new images.

This concept is an outdated one I think, from back when cameras would actually ERASE (destroy) data on a card when you clicked "format". That is simply no longer the case. All cameras these days, as far as I know, do leave your images intact on the card, they are simply "ready to be over-written".

Simply doing a "delete all" may not be the right option for your workflow, especially if you use different cameras from time to time or if you simply have a lot of different memory cards.

Any wear-and-tear that ~weekly formatting might do to your cards is still well within the 2-3 year lifespan that you ought to be giving your cards.

For the past ~10 years I have I shot 100-200 thousand images per year on various different cameras, and I format each card maybe 50-75 times per year, and I retire my cards after 3-4 years. So far, this has given me a zero-failure track record. (Not counting the few rare cases of immediate, first-use (DOA) failures that have occurred in the testing of a few off-brand cards for SLR Lounge. ;-)

=Matt=

Trikster

Matthew Saville wrote: »

BAD IDEA. Formatting your card is more healthy for the safety of new images.

This concept is an outdated one I think, from back when cameras would actually ERASE (destroy) data on a card when you clicked "format". That is simply no longer the case. All cameras these days, as far as I know, do leave your images intact on the card, they are simply "ready to be over-written".

Simply doing a "delete all" may not be the right option for your workflow, especially if you use different cameras from time to time or if you simply have a lot of different memory cards.

Any wear-and-tear that ~weekly formatting might do to your cards is still well within the 2-3 year lifespan that you ought to be giving your cards.

For the past ~10 years I have I shot 100-200 thousand images per year on various different cameras, and I format each card maybe 50-75 times per year, and I retire my cards after 3-4 years. So far, this has given me a zero-failure track record. (Not counting the few rare cases of immediate, first-use (DOA) failures that have occurred in the testing of a few off-brand cards for SLR Lounge. ;-)

=Matt=

That is interesting to me. For the reason you are saying a format should be done is what I was told as the reasoning to "Delete"... More research I guess needs to be done by me.

Ferguson

Trikster wrote: »

That is interesting to me. For the reason you are saying a format should be done is what I was told as the reasoning to "Delete"... More research I guess needs to be done by me.

As an I.T. guy I'll echo what Matt said. Erasing photos one by one causes directory updates for each one (and even doing a lot at once it is doing them one by one). A format basically rewrites the directory and leaves the rest alone, one fast operation. It does very minimal updates (that's one reason it is so fast).

Also, format in the camera in which you plan to use it (that's not about the card longevity but because some cameras seem to get confused if you do not, as besides the format itself they usually create a couple of folders).

And since you read it on the internet, it must be true.

Matthew Saville

Ferguson wrote: »

As an I.T. guy I'll echo what Matt said. Erasing photos one by one causes directory updates for each one (and even doing a lot at once it is doing them one by one). A format basically rewrites the directory and leaves the rest alone, one fast operation. It does very minimal updates (that's one reason it is so fast).

Also, format in the camera in which you plan to use it (that's not about the card longevity but because some cameras seem to get confused if you do not, as besides the format itself they usually create a couple of folders).

And since you read it on the internet, it must be true.

Trikster wrote: »

That is interesting to me. For the reason you are saying a format should be done is what I was told as the reasoning to "Delete"... More research I guess needs to be done by me.

Thankfully, most cameras have a "delete all" feature now, so theoretically it would delete every image all at once which would be less terrible than having to go through your memory card and delete every single photo one at a time. That would be TERRIBLE for memory card health, and for that matter the health of your thumbs and eyeballs. But still I'm betting that "delete all" is not preferable to "format", due to the potential for directory errors that Ferguson mentioned...

Like I said, if you're worried about overall memory card longevity, you should simply be retiring your memory cards LONG before they give you any "old age" related issues. My memory cards each average about 100,000 images before they get retired, and they never give me any issues other than the one-in-a-thousand random glitchy looking photo once in a while.

I wrote an article about that here, by the way:

http://www.slrlounge.com/replace-memory-card-qa

=Matt=

jonh68

For a backup purposes I would get as big a card as you can get and put in the second slot, doesn't have to be the fastest or best. IF you shoot RAW, you can dump the backups into that card and keep switching out on the primary card. Or shoot RAW for primary using the bigger card and secondary backup could be a smaller card and you dump the jpg into that one.