Bilsen Poll:

Sam

This is in reference to another thread where Bilsen believes he is not good enough to start charging for his photography.

Foques

To that I say mr. Bilsen is nuts.

D3Sshooter

Nobody should work for free....I you feel that your work is not good enough, well then you might just be to strick for yourself. I think hs pictures are OK and if the customer is happy he/she will pay.
If you don't charge they will use and abuse you....
I did it for a while, not anymore and I did not lose a single model or client....I just got another kind of clientele.

bobcool

I've seen many posts from Bilsen with many different models in many different parts of the world. I've seen many creative photo shoots that he's posted, so I think he would do great as a professional and should charge accordingly. I think he's ready, but it only matters if he's ready.

Bilsen

WOW I turn my back for 24 hours and this happens.

I appreciate the thought Sam and I'll need your address and that of Foques, D3 and Bob so I know where to send the checks.

Anyway, thanks to all for the wonderful comments. We do need responsible spokesman for opposing viewpoints. After all, this isn't MSNBC.

divamum

You mean you haven't been?

One great bonus: you won't be able to use "Yeah, well I didn't charge for this..." as an excuse not to offer your very tip-top best work

Bilsen

Diva, We've argued a bit but I don't think that's an excuse I've ever used. I fully agree that sometimes my best ain't the best but it's never an effort matter.

In one way though, you are correct. I'm not at all sure I want another job or to deal with things like sales tax and ID numbers. Been there, done that a couple of times.

Also, I like the idea that if I get any attitude, or a PITA boyfriend or anything annoying, I can just say "the shoot is over". Can't do that when there's a paying client.

I'm not saying never but, for now, it's an enjoyable hobby (even when I'm getting torched here) and for the moment I want to keep it that way.

Thanks to all though. Appreciate the appreciation and all those votes. Since I lack only a cane to be Dr. House, I always said if I ran for office I wouldn't sweep my immediate family.:D

Foques

Bilsen wrote: »

Also, I like the idea that if I get any attitude, or a PITA boyfriend or anything annoying, I can just say "the shoot is over". Can't do that when there's a paying client.

yes, you can.

divamum

Dude, you use it as an excuse all the time, which is why I mentioned it!! "Oh, I didn't want to lug lighting gear up the hill - I'm not charging, so it's just not worth it to me". "Oh, the model was late - I'm not charging, so I went ahead and shot in the bright noonday sun anyway". Etc. I'm actually NOT trying to be a total biatch here (and I sure hope you know my comments are made with respect and affection, and I ALWAYS have three fingers pointing back at myself too), but it's something I've thought when you've mentioned these kinds of things in the past - not charging means you actually have a "get out" clause to avoid some of the "hard work" pita details of shooting; if you're charging, you don't have that luxury. Now, don't get me wrong, I TOTALLY get not wanting to have to deal with all the "pro" hassles which go with taking money - and that is of course entirely your choice (and we all understand and respect that!) - but your work, at its best, is plenty excellent to be bringing in enough to cover your material costs.

Bilsen

Thanks Diva

---

I think.

Anyway, I clearly have said everything you mentioned except I don't ever remember referencing not charging. Reason I think that is that it never occurs to me, even in my private little room here. There are lots of reasons I do what I do (including backgrounds and other horrible stuff) but the financial aspect is just never part of the equation.

PS>>> You can try to be a bitch but you never quite make it. Long, long ago I was once married to their queen so I know these things.

Hackbone

You generally get more respect and a better client when you charge as opposed to doing it for free. Don't get me wrong, I do alot of free work but it is work I consider play or practice when I want to try out something new and I don't give the subject prints for time.

Do other working pros in your area respect you or your work knowing you don't charge? Is that fair to them trying to make a living.....boy is that question gonna get flak but I also started that way so I can't throw stones plus I have a few fellows who I try to help get started.

It is a very expensive hobby if you don't make something.

Charge but don't give up the free work as it is fun and helps to keep you fresh.

Bilsen

I don't make a dent in the pros here and most don't know (or care) I exist. Agency models test and pay NYC photographers. I don't do senior portraits or weddings so I'm not competing there. It's possible I may grab an actress headshot set or two from a return shoot but that's about it.

I think the pros are hurt more by the cardboard cameras on wedding tables than anything I do.

I will definitely give it some thought for next season but we're headed indoors now and I definitely won't be charging for that stuff.

jonh68

The reality of the situation is these models are probably college age and don't have much money to pay anyway. Making money is going to come from senior portraits and weddings which would require marketing to that audience.

Bilsen

Dead on Jon. I have no doubt that if I marketed to seniors I could make some spare change in that area. It's a possibility I'll consider for 2014. I did one wedding as a favor to a friend in trouble and when she asked what she could do to repay me I said "NEVER tell anyone I did this.":D

I am often told how lucky I am to be in NY because models are, like pigeons and taxes, all over the place and that's true. However for what I'm doing now with models/actresses, the serious money goes to NYC photographers like my friend Stephen Eastwood. There's also some guy named DeMarchlier and another named Richardson who seem to have made names for themselves in my area. I doubt very much that I hurt these guys at all with my little hobby and I'm certainly not gonna compete with them.

With all that said, I am both honored and horrified at the results of the poll so far.

divamum

Here's an idea for you: keep things as they are, but charge if and when they use them for their portfolios. Or some variant on that. I assume a lot of your gals come via word of mouth, so it will be in everybody's interests to play nice and honour agreements.

The thing I keep thinking is that, regardlses of whether you do make these "pro" sessions or not, 1. If this were film days, you WOULD charge for materials costs (film/paper etc) and 2. Demand your best of yourself by saying, "What would I have to do in this shoot to justify getting paid for it"? Sometimes it can be a good incentive

dogwood

Bilsen - how do you make your living? If I was to set up shop next door to you and start doing everything you do for free, what would you think?

Also, I guarantee when you charge someone a fair price for your work, it will eliminate the clients who show up late, the clients who bring pesky boyfriends, and the clients who give you attitude. People value something a lot more when they have to pay for it. When it's free, who cares? You think you don't put 100-percent effort into your photography because you're not charging? Guess what? You clients view it exactly the same way! "Oh, he's not charging me, I can be late. I can bring my BF. I don't have to put effort into this" etc, etc.

When your work is free, you are essentially SHOUTING to the world, "I don't value my work and neither should you!"

There's a reason people shop at Nordstoms when they can get the exact same knock-off clothing on amazon (or even goodwill) for a fraction of the price. They don't mind paying (a lot) more for good service and personal attention. You want to leave that money on the table? That's obviously your decision. Those type of clients are not going to even consider you since you're free and they would rather pay someone. Sounds weird but it's true. Once you start valuing your own work, others will also value it.