Another Question on Something 90% will hate

Bilsen

This is actually a serious question. I intend to spend the winter experimenting with creating textures with light. Seamless gray or white have their uses but I've gotten bored with them so I'm going for wrinkles and curls.

SOOOOO the question is: Do I post stuff I already know will be disliked but may result in a useful tip or two OR do I not bother you guys with that type of thing??

Here're two examples of what I'm trying to do. Vox Populi, Vox Dei.

Hackbone

Sorry, not only bad but pretty bad. The fold wrinkles are very disturbing to the eye. I do have a bkg painted to look crinkled but it is very crinkled like bunched up paper and that looks sort of neat. Maybe alot more wrinkles and slightly out of focus.

divamum

Post. We all learn from these discussions; it's valuable for everybody.

Intentional "artistic" wrinkles and draping are great, so I say go for it (Vanity Fair, anybody?!). However, "this needs ironing" not such a great idea. I can see the fold marks where it was in the package; that's just messy. Steam/iron them before using them! Or, as Hack says (hey, for once it wasn't me lol), use DOF to blur them out somewhat which helps; also, if you pull the model forward, you can use light falloff to minimise.

I think you have a decent concept here; now bring the execution up to standard. You have great ideas and some pretty fabu technical skills, but stop short of paying attention to the DETAILS. Yeah, ironing bg's is a pita (why do you think I do'nt use cloth?! Lolololol), but if it can be the difference between a great shot and not....

Btw, this is a nice model, well-posed. Clean up the rest of it and you've got potentially great stuff

PS You obviously have reservations about these or you wouldn't have posted them in the way you did. What do YOU not like?

Bilsen

Exactly what I expected both pro and con. I know how to shoot seamless. I will still use it where appropriate but I am bored with it. I am going to work with this concept this winter regardless (the con) BUT I figure if I can get by the seamless knee jerk reaction, I can actually get hints to make the concept work (the pro). I have that much confidence in this crew over here.

I actually like # 1 a lot and it's very much what I'm thinking of. Frankly, in # 2 I would like to get more of a "drape" effect with texture BUT coming in behind her like a stage curtain look.

Thanks for the quick responses you two. I have a shoot tomorrow where I'm going to try for that "stage curtain" effect with a sheer, pale green material that I can change color with lights. Not sure I want to spend the winter arguing about it BUT very sure there will be ideas to improve the concept.

All I can guarantee is y'all aren't gonna like 90% of them.

HMMMMMMM what to do, what to do.

divamum

Darlin', you're missing the point. There is NO "seamless knee jerk reaction". We're saying - "Great idea - now follow through on details and quality execution"!!

PS Sheer, lightweight material typically doesn't drape well without some help (eg weights, or HUGE amounts of it to provide its own weight).

Bilsen

divamum wrote: »

Darlin', you're missing the point. There is NO "seamless knee jerk reaction". We're saying - "Great idea - now follow through on details and quality execution"!!

Yes Ma'am.

You better be in on improving the execution. It's gonna be a loooooong winter.

puzzledpaul

Post - for reasons quoted.

Building materials - with highly textured surfaces immediately come to mind (side lit?) + stuff like blown vinyl wallpaper etc.
Even (possibly) natural materials glued to substrates of some sort or other.

I've used the 'crinkle then flatten' approach -with alu cooking foil for making many faceted reflectors for use in macro setups.

Wire mesh / perforated sheet?

pp

Bilsen

Nice ideas Paul. I'm gonna spend a bokeh-less winter and it's gonna be interesting.

divamum

You know, even with what you have in these, if you pull her AWAY from the background you'll get more of the effect you want. If you're short on space... find another venue, or use bokeh to do it for you. Multiple ways to skin the wrinkled cat

Hackbone

Accordion pleat your fabric and clip the top. Grab that hunk and suspend that either centered or way off center in respects to where the model is. Then move the bottom in what ever fashion you like. Skim some light at a serious angle to the bkg and add some gels.

Bilsen

Thanks all. Good ideas all around.

Hack, that red one IS gelled on a black background.

jonh68

divamum wrote: »

Darlin', you're missing the point. There is NO "seamless knee jerk reaction". We're saying - "Great idea - now follow through on details and quality execution"!!

PS Sheer, lightweight material typically doesn't drape well without some help (eg weights, or HUGE amounts of it to provide its own weight).

Yep, it isn't we are against the concept, it is the execution of it. This goes back to the "sexy" thing and missing that point.

Your two examples show this point. That huge horizontal fold across her neck in 1 kills the shot. It becomes a focal point.

In 2, you have tiny wrinkles that are sharp and in focus. You also have the dark dividing line at her knees. If nothing else do some cloning to blend the line out and blurring on the wrinkles. Or take the time and iron it out, and have two sets of sheets, one for her to stand on that can be blended better with the backdrop.

The point is, if you are going to put time and effort into a project, don't stop short.

rwells

I know I'm going to have "posters remorse" after posting this, but...



I just don't understand

If your trying something "out of the box", then why are you worried about what others (meaning not you or your client) think?

Isn't it what YOU and/or your CLIENTS like that counts?

Why do you want suggestions that will invariably be "In The Box"?

Do you think that artist who have distinctive styles paid attention to the "Get Back Into The Box" suggestions? Or do you think they just produced work that they liked...



I mean no disrespect to anyone, but most photographers strive to have their work look like every other good photographers work. Nothing wrong with that, if that's what you want. But, if your looking to create your own "look", then how in the world will anyone else be able to send you down that path? They themselves are not on that path...


BTW, I have no dog in this hunt, and the above are rhetorical questions that need not be answered here/now.

Just food for thought... YMWPV (Your Mileage Will Probably Vary)

jonh68

rwells wrote: »

I know I'm going to have "posters remorse" after posting this, but...



I just don't understand

If your trying something "out of the box", then why are you worried about what others (meaning not you or your client) think?

Isn't it what YOU and/or your CLIENTS like that counts?

Why do you want suggestions that will invariably be "In The Box"?

Do you think that artist who have distinctive styles paid attention to the "Get Back Into The Box" suggestions? Or do you think they just produced work that they liked...



I mean no disrespect to anyone, but most photographers strive to have their work look like every other good photographers work. Nothing wrong with that, if that's what you want. But, if your looking to create your own "look", then how in the world will anyone else be able to send you down that path? They themselves are not on that path...


BTW, I have no dog in this hunt, and the above are rhetorical questions that need not be answered here/now.

Just food for thought... YMWPV (Your Mileage Will Probably Vary)

That's true to a point but if critiques didn't matter then why have mentors or study other photographers?

Sometimes an artist is their own worst critique and own worst fan. I have valued critiques that pointed out stuff I didn't see, and disregarded stuff from others that didn't get what I was trying to do that didn't help the vision I'm going for.

It's up to the artist to stick to their vision and take or disregard advice. To disregard advice just because is shortsighted.

jmphotocraft

I agree with Hackbone and Diva, these are half-baked. It looks like you just took the material out of the wrapper, or off the shelf where they were sitting folded for a long time. By all means, use wrinkles and bunches and such, but they've got to be random or organic. Iron the material first, then arrange and/or wrinkle it. The fold lines look like something an amateur would overlook.

Bilsen

divamum wrote: »

You know, even with what you have in these, if you pull her AWAY from the background you'll get more of the effect you want. If you're short on space... find another venue, or use bokeh to do it for you. Multiple ways to skin the wrinkled cat

I'm not sure if I'll even have the studio after Jan 1 (the restaurant may close) but if I have to go hunting, I'll look for a bit longer space where I can use the 70-200 that I love so much.

Until then, it'll be trial, error and routine beatings on here.

Believe it or not, I asked the original question out of respect (respect---from me????--- ) for the members here. I value your comments and I don't want to waste your time on things I already know y'all consider junk,

Bilsen

jmphotocraft wrote: »

I agree with Hackbone and Diva, these are half-baked. It looks like you just took the material out of the wrapper, or off the shelf where they were sitting folded for a long time. By all means, use wrinkles and bunches and such, but they've got to be random or organic. Iron the material first, then arrange and/or wrinkle it. The fold lines look like something an amateur would overlook.

OF COURSE they are "half baked". The idea hit me that day as I was futzing around with gray seamless. The baking process will continue as we go.

divamum

Bilsen wrote: »

OF COURSE they are "half baked". The idea hit me that day as I was futzing around with gray seamless.

Ok, so that answers my question earlier, namely what did you not like about them

Have you considered a checklist, especially for the indoor stuff which you feel is outside your comfort zone? It seems to me that, in general, where you tend to hit problems is the DETAILS, particularly settings and backgrounds. Why not make yourself a little cheat sheet before you go to the shoot, listing all the things you think of? You may not USE all of them, but if you've thought about it beforehand, you'll get better results. I think this REALLY worked for you when you did the world tour series (since I know you put a lot of prep time into those)

Again, for fabric, think not only about the texture, but about the DRAPE. Organza, velvet, satin and tweed won't all hang the same way. Btw, have you gone back to look at Nikolai's threads that included big ole fabric drapes? I assume that's the kind of thing you want to achieve - he did TONS with big pieces of fabric, and it might provide some inspiration

divamum

Oh, also - invest in one of these (or similar). I bet you could find one for next to nothing on Craigslist, or even freecycle.

puzzledpaul

I'm vary wary about backgrounds and bokeh for my stuff, as I know that the degree of bokeh / diffusion / oof ness that I'm looking for (still) won't compensate for poor colour choice / big contasts / non-organic boundaries etc... and especially 'spottiness' - ie high frequency light / dark regions such as brightly lit leaves in front of shadows in the inner regions of trees.

Whilst I accept we have different photographic interests, I see a lot of the above (less than ideal bg choice) across most if not all genres ... and being oof doesn't necessarily cure things.

pp

Bilsen

Thanks for all the ideas Diva. The steamer is now on my Christmas list, if only to confuse the stuffing out of my wife.

You're correct in two things here. The World Tour involved more planning and research (by Cyndi, Anylza and me) than anything else I've done. Literally weeks for each country. Also, if you remember my accidental shoot on the cruise ship, I took total control to help that gorgeous non-model and it was a popular set.

divamum

TOTAL edit to delete what I wrote. I mistook Paul's post for Steve's. OOPS!

divamum

Bilsen wrote: »

Thanks for all the ideas Diva. The steamer is now on my Christmas list, if only to confuse the stuffing out of my wife.

You're correct in two things here. The World Tour involved more planning and research (by Cyndi, Anylza and me) than anything else I've done. Literally weeks for each country. Also, if you remember my accidental shoot on the cruise ship, I took total control to help that gorgeous non-model and it was a popular set.

There are other steamers out there - handheld ones, too (although they're not as effective IME). I'm sure you can find an inexpensive one.

And yup, planning, taking control, and noticing details is key.

chrisjohnson

My opinion does not count for much but I'll give it nonetheless. I think you should go a lot lot further. Personally I am totally bored by models with perfect skin and cliche posing. Maybe this is what people understand by "sexy" but it just looks tawdry. You can wrinkle up her shirt but it does not make her look like a person I would be interested to meet.

Now there you have it. So interesting, good direction, but first step on the road.

aj986s

I'm curious if anyone uses a green-screen backround, which allows for post-process insertion of various backgrounds and effects?

Bilsen

JUST AN UPDATE>

Second session was a abysmal failure. I like being able to change the colors with lights but the creases and wrinkles don't steam out well. At least not yet.

divamum

Heavier fabric. Seriously - people use velvet and heavy satins for good reason

Tinstafl

This will be an interesting thread to follow. I have a few fabric backgrounds and like using them from time to time but they are not textured really so that is different.