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Women's Lax
It's been forever since I've posted, but I finally got the camera back out this past weekend for some pre-season scrimmages. Cold weekend here in the nation's capital, with a mixture of cloudy and sunny. Here's a couple of what I came away with...
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Always appreciate any comments or critiques...
Thanks.
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Always appreciate any comments or critiques...
Thanks.
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Comments
#4 is really combative. I'd like to say, pity about cutting the feet off ... but I do it so often myself that it drives me nuts!!!!
Thanks for sharing
www.acecootephotography.com
Brett: that was nothing. this past Tuesday the snow started around the same time as the game and came pretty heavy at times. The only shoveling was to clear the lines...
Will
________________________
www.willspix.smugmug.com
An "accurate" reproduction of a scene and a good photograph are often two different things.
Maybe I'm just not seeing it, but what is unflattering about the other photos?
perroneford@ptfphoto.com
An "accurate" reproduction of a scene and a good photograph are often two different things.
Interesting. I just see competitors working hard. The athletes I shoot tend to love these shots, coaches too.
perroneford@ptfphoto.com
I think you would be missing out on one of the essentials of competitive sport ... the effort and determination to win the ball/play whatever. That is what sport can be about and what players, coaches and spectators applaud.
I don't see ANY of these being embarrassing at all.
I do delete photos that I view as embarassing:
- undergarments that are not designed to be seen
- dimpled legs - usually occurs when player's weight is coming down on a leg
- for big breasted players I want the weight moving upwards, rather than down as it pulls the line of the breasts into an exaggerated position.
- down the cleavage
- expressions that are extreme caricatures of their normal playing face. (I had ONE girl ask me to take down one photo, because of her facial expression out of the thousands and thousands of photos I have posted. No a problem - removed it immediately. Was one I umm'd and ahh'd about. Got that one wrong)
My ultimate arbiter is: if this were my daughter, would I be happy with this shot on the internet? Would she be OK with it?I have some girls that I do not shoot AT ALL because they have asked me not to. Some are OK to be shot and put on the internet but they don't want photos of them submitted to the newspaper.
That's fine - totally respect that.
I just can't see any problem at all with the faces/expressions in the original post.
Doesn't mean I'm right or you're right. We both do what we are comfortable with and what our player's will be OK with.
Interesting. (and I mean no sarcasm by that at all)
www.acecootephotography.com
The young women on this team approach this activity as comptetive athletic event, not a beauty pagent. I don't get any sense that faces reflecting that intensity are unflattering from that perspective. However, that being said, I do dump photos where things like a mis-timed eye blink or some other split second movement or body contortion causes the individual to look "goofy" and out of context. I also worryabout/self censor shots with that dimpled leg appearance--and wish I had better photoshop skills to get rid of it easily.
The uniforms athletes wear these days don't leave much margin for error. I recall watching the winter olympics last month and thinkg how uncomfortable some outfits (like those for the speedskaters) looked and how self-consicous I would be in something like that. These tight, stretchy uniforms aren't everyone's friend, so I think you do have to take that into consideration, but drawing the line is an image by image decision.
I also know that as a fan/follower of the team, I tend to discard shots such as those of my team's goalie when it's apparent the ball got past her into the goal, or when my team's defender has clearly been beaten by a player on the opposing team. Looking at my galleries for the team, it would generally appear that one team scored all the goals, picked up all the ground balls, and played perfect defense--regardless of what the actual final score was. But I do like to include some that show the intensity and hard hitting which can go on in a "low-contact" sport. An unbiased photo-journalist I am not.
A couple of years back, a girl on one of my daughter's field hockey teams got hit in the face with a stick; lots of blood! As soon as I recognized what had happened, I stopped shooting. As she was leaving the sidelines to go get stitches, she walked past me and asked if I got pictures of it all. She was really disappointed when I said "no." Go figure...
I think the best advice is to go with whatever subjective criteria you're comfortable with, and then take down a picture if the person depicted asks you to (or you got a clear indication they were bothered by it). So far, my experience has always been positive and I haven't been asked to take any down. To the contrary, the ladies themselves and their families seem to always want to see more pictures.
Will
________________________
www.willspix.smugmug.com
I don't delete ANYTHING. I don't post all my stuff, but I never delete what I shoot. And thus, I have a DEEP catalog of nearly all athletes on all the teams that I shoot. You'd be surprised at how nice this can be when someone needs a shot for senior day, or a retrospective of a long forgotten athlete. When that role player on the team from 20 years ago becomes a senator. Etc.
Anyway, I think most athletes are perfectly fine with images of them being used as long as it's "tasteful". One of my sports is beach (sand) volleyball at the collegiate level. I spoke with the coach about this because I do try to protect the modesty of the athletes. But I would guess based on some of the criteria being applied here, I could never post a single frame!
The elephant in the room to me, is do your standards of what you will post change, if we are discussing men rather than women? And if so, why? I tend to post exactly the same images for males or females. Maybe because I coached women for 20 years and tend to see them as just "athletes". I don't know.
perroneford@ptfphoto.com
Men v Women - I won't post images of men where you can see up the shorts to underwear. They don't have breasts/nipples that stand out. If the photo just happens to catch a "jelly-leg" (especially for the heavier set boys) then I probably won't post. And the "goofy" (nice expression) facial expressions may get removed - depends on my relationship with that player and what I know he would be OK with.
Beach volleyball: this is a sport that makes my blood boil! I feel they have sold their souls in order to make it "sexy" to attract crowds. The fact that the men don't wear tight-fitting, skimpy shorts just reinforces that for me. So much of the focus is taken away from the physical, sporting endeavour and misdirected towards the "look". Shameless eploitation by the adminstrators of this sport.
I could say the same thing about skimpy athletics "uniforms" worn by some women. Way too much "showmanship" and not enough "sportsmanship". And I don't buy the argument about freedom of movement ... not when they wear a jewellery store's worth of merchandise.
Don't get me onto gymnastics, ice-dancing ... sports where they speed as much time preparing for an event on their make-up and "look" as they do on the physical requirements of the sport. Aaaaarrrrgh!!! And some VERY unladylike positions. I would refuse to shoot gymnastics, given the chance, as I do not feel comfortable shooting these.
I love my small town/district sports - lots of junior/youth sports mixed in there. The players are just out competing - trying their best, working with their team mates ... just for the love of the sport.
Sorry - old man rant wanting to see the elite sportspeople actually competing rather than showboating and trying to attract the next endorsement.
Whew!!!
www.acecootephotography.com
Seems reasonable.
Interesting perspective, but seems misplaced. Pro beach volleyball is borne out of play on the beach from the last 20-30 years. Even in unorganized play then and now, women tend to play in bikini's and guys in board shorts. Even with no advertising or crowds around. The men do not play in tight fitting clothes but they do play shirtless. Do we hold that to a different standard?
As for shameless exploitation, I remember at the London Olympics where bikini's were under consideration to be banned. It was the competitors who didn't wish it to be so. In the end, the Olympic Committee left it up to the competitors. Which I think is the right thing to do.
At the collegiate level, my home team wears biker shorts/workout shorts and a tank top. Quite modest by most standards for the sport, but then we are in the bible belt. USC wears running shorts and a tank top. Some wear the more traditional bikini bottom and tank tops. At least at the NCAA level, the choice doesn't seem to be handled by "the administrators of the sport" as much as the local teams. Again, I think that is the correct choice.
Unladylike... In gymnastics. Ok. Not sure how you separate skill, strength, and flexibility (which is what they are being judged on), while maintaining ladylike positions. But as you said, this is more down to your comfort than the comfort of the competitors. I'd suggest you avoid water polo and diving as well though.
I find that in the majority of non-revenue sports at the collegiate level, this is true as well. Very enjoyable.
The Olympics used to be held in the nude. I wonder how you would have felt about covering that. No advertising, no showboating. Just pure athletics held in the most natural way possible.
perroneford@ptfphoto.com
But I am not a photojournalist, nor am I a hobbyist. My perspective is print sales. I'm sure athletes/parents may like to see photos of themselves exerting themselves for the sake of the team/game/race/etc, or not, but are they going to buy those photos? I can't fathom it, unless it is a deciding moment in a very important game. #5 above is my idea of a perfect capture. Beautiful pose, good face, eyes, ball, conflict. If only the weather had cooperated.
Actually I don't think my standards are different for men or women. I generally delete photos with double chins, or anything drawing attention to plumpness. I admit I assume women are more sensitive to this than men. I think boys and girls are probably equally sensitive, though the boys may not admit it. I'll delete photos where the face looks screwed up or goofy in a bad way. I'll keep funny faces. I'll delete photos of the player obviously fumbling or being beaten. I'll delete down-the-cleavage* shots, and if a man is showing cleavage I am DEFINITELY deleting it! Haven't had the pleasure of shooting beach volleyball yet though.
* Friends of mine have 4 kids, their oldest daughter is a very attractive college freshman. Their Christmas card last year was the 4 kids lying on their stomachs on a beach, propped up on their elbows. The oldest daughter was sporting about 8" of cleavage!! I couldn't believe it!
An "accurate" reproduction of a scene and a good photograph are often two different things.
Yep, it's about recording the moment... such as it may be. And to be honest, some of the most remarkable moments in sports are not "pretty".
I think this is a CRUCIAL distinction. And given your goals, your editing makes perfect sense. I think others would do well to understand the discussion here and really pay attention to the needs and the audience. We are both selling. But we are not selling to the same people. And they don't want the same thing. The people I am selling to (magazines, newspapers, etc.) are not interested in pretty. They are interested in capturing the decisive moment. A player in full celebration mode mouth gaped open and fists thrust in the air. A competitor absolutely crushed by a loss with tears streaming. Not something a parent might buy, but might make a magazine cover.
I think some tend to be FAR more sensitive and uptight about this than others. I am friends on FB or Twitter with several hundred athletes. I use that as a barometer as to what today's "standards" are among people of the age I shoot. Primarily 17-25 year olds. And I have to say, what these folks post of themselves, what they celebrate and enjoy, and what their parents seem to enjoy runs quite counter to some of the posts I am seeing here. The comment about the lacrosse player being whacked across the face and bleeding being a classic example. That's a story you can tell your kids and grandkids! And there is no visual evidence of it. As a former athlete, I wish I had photos of some of my most favorite moments that I still tell stories about today. So maybe that tempers when I press the shutter.
perroneford@ptfphoto.com
@Perroneford and beach volleyball. I fear your point-of-view may be more on the right side than mine. I probably have an irrational viewpoint about the "overt sexualising" (I don't even know if that is a word!) of some sports.
Naked Olympics - I believe that was designed as a way of preventing women competing.
I must say, this thread has been a bit of an eye-opener and made me question what I think about certain circumstances.
I also really appreciate the demeanour of the contributors - an excellent discussion of points/thoughts without anger/accusations/rancour.
www.acecootephotography.com
I shoot high school sports fairly often, as my daughter plays soccer. What I've discovered is that the most photographically intense and interesting shots are usually quite unflattering. The guys don't give a damn, but the girls sure do. They want to look like fashion models when they're on the pitch. They prefer the sportraits to the real action shots. The mouth guards in Lax only make the problem worse!
Regarding the larger matters of sexuality in sports, I have no problem representing this photographically so long as the angles and shots are not explicitly and solely emphasizing this aspect. Of course with teens, I think a modicum of additional thoughtfulness is in order, for the obvious reasons.
Still, my camera, my call.
All this said, I like the above shots precisely for the expressions and the action. Some are even flattering to the ladies.
Will
________________________
www.willspix.smugmug.com
While this attitude might be correct, it might cost you favor with friends/clients.
An "accurate" reproduction of a scene and a good photograph are often two different things.
I can well imagine that for those who shoot teen sports for profit (I don't), it is immensely important to deliver a product that is well-received. As others have pointed out, it depends on your goals as a photographer.
It's funny, but the most common reaction I hear from parents is how well I capture the emotional intensity of the game. The most common reaction I hear from my daughter is how goofy her face (or her teammate's face) looks.
It's usually the parents who pay the photographer...
Well, true, but I'm also doing this for the kid I once was, who would have loved professional action shots of his games... but there were none... :cry
A child's self-esteem is a fragile thing.
An "accurate" reproduction of a scene and a good photograph are often two different things.
Yeah, I had some great sports adventures in my youth too, almost none of which were documented.
Giving the matter some more thought, I like to show emotion and grit. However, there are those shots in which the person just looks bizarre. A good example in soccer is the header: As the ball impacts the head, a shock wave travels across the face that can result in really grotesque facial features. I never post these despite how much I may like the timing. And of course there are those really weird ripples on the thighs, even in the most conditioned athletes, that look like cottage cheese. Those get deleted as well.
So yes, I guess I do discard a lot of shots because they are unflattering. But mainly I do so because, unlike emotions on the face, they really do not tell any worthwhile story.