Nice! Have you ever tried a polarizer on a converted camera? I'm wondering if that might darken the sky and water more - or have no effect. It is dead of winter here so when I get a chance to test out the converted SL1, I'll have to shoot a "green card" for custom WB, which sounds real weird. Kodak would be laughing about that, if there were still a Kodak.
With dSLR's they have to remove the camera's own sensor cleaning capability. That has me a bit concerned. My memory says that my very old Canon 20D (which didn't have that tech) was a real dust collector. I'm hoping to just place one lens on the cam for most of the shooting - probably the 28mm pancake, which would allow me to travel with the IR in tow at less than a pound.
My Smugmug
"You miss 100% of the shots you don't take" - Wayne Gretzky
Nice! Have you ever tried a polarizer on a converted camera? I'm wondering if that might darken the sky and water more - or have no effect. It is dead of winter here so when I get a chance to test out the converted SL1, I'll have to shoot a "green card" for custom WB, which sounds real weird. Kodak would be laughing about that, if there were still a Kodak.
With dSLR's they have to remove the camera's own sensor cleaning capability. That has me a bit concerned. My memory says that my very old Canon 20D (which didn't have that tech) was a real dust collector. I'm hoping to just place one lens on the cam for most of the shooting - probably the 28mm pancake, which would allow me to travel with the IR in tow at less than a pound.
Hmm, thermal infrared wouldn't be polarized, but reflected IR? Off the top of my head, it *should* be polarized as well, so it might make a perceivable difference. I think empirical testing on that would be much easier than me trying to figure it out in my head. I'll look and see what sizes my CP's are and try one. the great thing about reflected IR is that it is scattered much less than blue light, so on hazy days the IR cuts right through the haze. I'll try to dig up a gif I made once demonstrating that.
You also lose the dust removal properties on the OM-D because it's built into the filter that's removed, and that capability is doubly missed since the shutter is open for lens changes, and the IBIS makes it hard to do-it-yourself wet sensor cleaning. So I too want to find a couple of lenses that work best on the camera and mostly leave them on. The kit lens, the Oly m.zuiko 12-50mm was great at ~900nm, but had a slight hotspot with the 720nm (but not nearly as bad as the Tokina 11-16mm lens I was trying with my IR rebel), so that might not end up being the one, I was hopeful when I saw the 900mm images like the one I posted above. the kit lens may still work if it's a limited number of aperture/focal length combinations that cause the hotspot. So far the FD lenses I've tried haven't had hot spots, and manual focus isn't bad since it's all sensor based on the OM-D. The old zuiko primes that I haven't tried yet are so small and light they wouldn't be bad either.
Nice! Have you ever tried a polarizer on a converted camera? I'm wondering if that might darken the sky and water more - or have no effect. It is dead of winter here so when I get a chance to test out the converted SL1, I'll have to shoot a "green card" for custom WB, which sounds real weird. Kodak would be laughing about that, if there were still a Kodak.
I just realized what that little buzzing at the back of my head was when I first read this. The strong IR reflection in plants isn't exactly due to the green pigments. It's because the pigments don't absorb in the reflected IR part of the spectrum, and so the cell structure of the plants can reflect the reflected infrared wavelengths back out. A green card will sorta work if you don't have any vegetation, but probably won't substitute for scenes with vegetation in that you want to be white.
Green card would be a kludge, then. I can't wait until April when the greenery pops out naturally. Or, if I had a large house plant (and I don't), I could bring it outside in the winter and shoot it front-lit at about 10am, though risk killing it in the cold.
I just realized what that little buzzing at the back of my head was when I first read this. The strong IR reflection in plants isn't exactly due to the green pigments. It's because the pigments don't absorb in the reflected IR part of the spectrum, and so the cell structure of the plants can reflect the reflected infrared wavelengths back out. A green card will sorta work if you don't have any vegetation, but probably won't substitute for scenes with vegetation in that you want to be white.
My Smugmug
"You miss 100% of the shots you don't take" - Wayne Gretzky
David, I never WB my IR camera. I followed these instructions to create a camera profile to use in Lightroom (or camera raw if you wanted). This is a one-time process, after which you select the profile, and then boom, you're done. Note that this is for my 590nm conversion, if you got a different conversion, then you may follow a different procedure. Anyway, I don't think a custom WB is necessary in any case.
And just FYI, what I shoot with is a Panasonic GF5 with the 14mm pancake lens. I got both used, and they were $150 each, plus the conversion. I'm really happy with the size and IQ of the setup, at this price point.
Oh, I wanted to mention that the first camera I converted was a Canon S90, and I would strongly recommend against converting those cameras, as they are very susceptible to hot spots.
Thanks for chipping in. Congrats on the conversion. Looked at your recent gallery and looks like it works splendidly. Odd that LR couldn't accept the RAW's due to the content. Glad you got it straightened out and goon on LifePixel for finding the solution.
The reason for this process is because the white balance pane can't go far enough to get the proper color. This method gives the color wheel a spin, putting the proper colors within range of LR.
Many cams, post conversion, need EV's at +0.7 to +1.3 or so. Changing light conditions make proper exposure even more unreliable. Since what's on the LCD when chimping is less than informative due to the nature of what IR images in cam look like before proper conversion in post, I think it prudent to make a few shots at different exposures to just get it right. Of course, once I know the cam a bit better, that might not be necessary. Still, never a bad idea to bracket when doing important shooting, IR or conventional.
Have you tried shooting RAW with your picture style set to monochrome, so that the camera will display a monochrome image while chimping? I rely more on the histogram than anything else when it comes to exposure with my IR camera.
I'm actually pretty cavalier about it, tbh. I set it to ISO 100 or 200, f/8 and aperture priority, exposure compensate a touch to protect highlights and snap away.
I don't use Lightroom, so that isn't an option ATM. I'll be picking up the converted camera at UPS in a couple days. I had it delayed since we are usually never home when they come by (I guess my cats could sign for it, maybe). It will take a while to play with the thing. I didn't WB before when I just used 720nm filters. What I did was just use the eyedropper tool in RAW placing on something that would have been green and BINGO. I mostly use DPP and then process from there in either B&W or do the color swap thing for false color in an embarrassingly old copy of Paint Shop Pro. Gets the job done. And in 16 bits too. So that will be my method right off the bat for a while to come. My new 18-55 IS STM el-cheapo lens that I got with my second SL1 might be my main lens, or perhaps the older 10-22. Either should work OK. I want to get the 28mm pancake (correction, urp, 24mm pancake) too, for ultimate lightness. That might come by summer, but I'm not in any hurry (unless I can get a deal).
The monochrome JPG trick seems like a great idea. I'll add that to my testing. It is winter here, so everything looks like an IR image right now.
My Smugmug
"You miss 100% of the shots you don't take" - Wayne Gretzky
I have had a hard time sometimes with the dropper method of clicking a plant to set white balance in post. I've never been able to figure out why it just doesn't work sometimes. It'll give me some plants with a neutral white color scheme, but other plants with pink or blue cast. It might have been correlated with lenses that have hot spots, but I never worked it out. Setting a custom white balance while shooting has always yielded better results for me- even if I pick one particular plant type to set it on, it seems to work better over the whole scene.
I have had a hard time sometimes with the dropper method of clicking a plant to set white balance in post. I've never been able to figure out why it just doesn't work sometimes.
They've got some videos on WB here at LifePixel that are good. Look at the one titled "Infrared RAW file white balance issues & solutions"
My Smugmug
"You miss 100% of the shots you don't take" - Wayne Gretzky
Above is a really stupid color test shot towards the sky with leafless trees and pine which were mostly dark brown to the normal eye. The reflected IR light changed all that -- a bit.
CA is pretty much all over the place, at least with the 18-55. Setting automatic lens-based CA correction in-camera is bad, I learned, because the correction does the opposite. Manual slider-based correction is a better idea. The Color Blur setting had to be turned off in Canon DPP because it was causing more color blur. I tried DPP's Digital Lens Optimizer on some test photos and found that it didn't like IR images at all (not a biggie, for IR, IMO). I haven't tried color swapping yet with this cam, but from my previous experience, that's an easy step in post. I can't wait until the greenery comes out and the skies get more dramatic. :ivar
EDIT: I now keep the CA adjustments box unchecked in DPP, and that works better for some reason. Apparently, less correction is more correction. Weird.
A rather pleasant discovery was that auto-focus through the finder also works pretty darn well with the 18-55 IS STM, even though it absolutely shouldn't work at all. That method also messes up auto exposure by a stop and a half. Most likely I will stick solely with live view auto focus on the LCD because that is dead simple and exposure worked way better that way. Just move the focus cursor around the screen with your finger (ala iPhone) and the camera beeps when properly focused and snap.
My Smugmug
"You miss 100% of the shots you don't take" - Wayne Gretzky
Above is a really stupid color test shot towards the sky with leafless trees and pine which were mostly dark brown to the normal eye. The reflected IR light changed all that -- a bit.
CA is pretty much all over the place, at least with the 18-55. Setting automatic lens-based CA correction in-camera is bad, I learned, because the correction does the opposite. Manual slider-based correction is a better idea. The Color Blur setting had to be turned off in Canon DPP because it was causing more color blur. I tried DPP's Digital Lens Optimizer on some test photos and found that it didn't like IR images at all (not a biggie, for IR, IMO). I haven't tried color swapping yet with this cam, but from my previous experience, that's an easy step in post. I can't wait until the greenery comes out and the skies get more dramatic. :ivar
A rather pleasant discovery was that auto-focus through the finder also works pretty darn well with the 18-55 IS STM, even though it absolutely shouldn't work at all. That method also messes up auto exposure by a stop and a half. Most likely I will stick solely with live view auto focus on the LCD because that is dead simple and exposure worked way better that way. Just move the focus cursor around the screen with your finger (ala iPhone) and the camera beeps when properly focused and snap.
Progress report. Now that the scenery is finally turning green, I've been out taking some pics. Here's one of the Arboretum's administration building, in false color:
and a walking bridge:
Also, I have been setting a custom white balance in the camera of a color photo of green grass backlit by sunlight. Seems to work as well as picking a green leaf with the dropper tool in DPP in post. Either work. In-camera is easiest since the setting is kept in DPP edits in either B&W or color versions of the RAW files.
The next experiment is getting the 24mm pancake lens. The camera firmware won't recognize the 24, nor are there any firmware updates available. I don't know what I'll find with IR induced CA problems. There is minimal CA with the 18-55, but what is there is easily dealt with in post. My current copy of DPP won't recognize the 24, so this could get interesting. If all else fails with the wide pancake, I will be able to fix them in post in about a year with a new computer and software updates, or continue with the 18-55. Both lenses should work with my other unmodified SL1.
My Smugmug
"You miss 100% of the shots you don't take" - Wayne Gretzky
Progress report. Now that the scenery is finally turning green, I've been out taking some pics. Here's one of the Arboretum's administration building, in false color:
Also, I have been setting a custom white balance in the camera of a color photo of green grass backlit by sunlight. Seems to work as well as picking a green leaf with the dropper tool in DPP in post. Either work. In-camera is easiest since the setting is kept in DPP edits in either B&W or color versions of the RAW files.
The next experiment is getting the 24mm pancake lens. The camera firmware won't recognize the 24, nor are there any firmware updates available. I don't know what I'll find with IR induced CA problems. There is minimal CA with the 18-55, but what is there is easily dealt with in post. My current copy of DPP won't recognize the 24, so this could get interesting. If all else fails with the wide pancake, I will be able to fix them in post in about a year with a new computer and software updates, or continue with the 18-55. Both lenses should work with my other unmodified SL1.
So the 24mm pancake lens showed up tonight. Very lightweight lens, and B&H shipped it a big puffy box. Was delivered onto my porch when away. Found it as I came home at 9:45pm. Almost didn't find it at all. Very windy day and the wind had blown the box off the porch and halfway into the street. I hate to think where it might have ended up had I come home another hour later. Perhaps I would have run over it pulling up to my driveway.
Anyway, as soon as i have time, and if the sun decides to make an appearance, I want to see what this does for IR. The SL1 doesn't have an update to figure out what a 24mm pancake lens is, and neither does my copy of Canon's DPP. So this will be interesting. Hopefully, CA will be somewhat controlled right off the bat. I also want to find out if a circular polarizer does anything to darken the blue sky at 90 degrees to the sun. That arrived in the same package.
EDIT: CA seems pretty controlled with the 24 pancake in IR. OTOH, there is noticeable CA with my conventional un-modded SL1 with the 24.
My Smugmug
"You miss 100% of the shots you don't take" - Wayne Gretzky
I also want to find out if a circular polarizer does anything to darken the blue sky at 90 degrees to the Sun.
I tested a polarizer with the IR cam today. Strange results and quite unexpected. Normally, a polarizer can be adjusted to work to it's maximum effect at any angle that is 90 degrees to the Sun. With an IR setup, I couldn't get any darker skies at 90 degrees. I wasn't expecting much to happen since I've read that one can't gain much from using them.
But, the unexpected part is that the polarizer had a BIG effect with the Sun behind me - or at 180 degrees from the Sun. This is really good news since IR scenes are usually at their best with the Sun behind the photographer. 8am to 10am and again at 2pm to 4pm are great times of the day for this type of photography.
So yes, polarizers do work with IR cams (and presumably IR filters such as Hoya R72 and the like), but they work with opposite results to normal white light photography.
polarizer at minimum setting:
ISO 200, 1/60, f/8.0, 10am
polarizer at maximum setting:
ISO 200, 1/60, f/8.0, 10am
I am excited not just because the sky is noticeably darker, but the trees at the left and the right have more "IR effect." The scene overall has more contrast. It is important to note that the exposure is exactly the same with these two photos. I am also happy that I can reuse this 30+ year old 55mm circular polarizer and 52mm to 55mm step up ring again on the pancake lenses. Win - win.
My Smugmug
"You miss 100% of the shots you don't take" - Wayne Gretzky
I tested a polarizer with the IR cam today. Strange results and quite unexpected. Normally, a polarizer can be adjusted to work to it's maximum effect at any angle that is 90 degrees to the Sun. With an IR setup, I couldn't get any darker skies at 90 degrees. I wasn't expecting much to happen since I've read that one can't gain much from using them.
But, the unexpected part is that the polarizer had a BIG effect with the Sun behind me - or at 180 degrees from the Sun. This is really good news since IR scenes are usually at their best with the Sun behind the photographer. 8am to 10am and again at 2pm to 4pm are great times of the day for this type of photography.
So yes, polarizers do work with IR cams (and presumably IR filters such as Hoya R72 and the like), but they work with opposite results to normal white light photography.
polarizer at minimum setting:
Image
ISO 200, 1/60, f/8.0, 10am
polarizer at maximum setting:
Image
ISO 200, 1/60, f/8.0, 10am
I am excited not just because the sky is noticeably darker, but the trees at the left and the right have more "IR effect." The scene overall has more contrast. It is important to note that the exposure is exactly the same with these two photos. I am also happy that I can reuse this 30+ year old 55mm circular polarizer and 52mm to 55mm step up ring again on the pancake lenses. Win - win.
You're welcome, Ziggy. I haven't looked at the native color file yet. I want to determine to what degree this helps/doesn't help a false color interpretation. And I also need to do more real tests in the field and under different daylight conditions. But on the surface, this first result has made me very happy.
One of my upcoming tests is a real crazy one. Place a Hoya R72 filter in front of the lens on an already converted IR camera. Ultra-InfraRed?
My Smugmug
"You miss 100% of the shots you don't take" - Wayne Gretzky
Comments
With dSLR's they have to remove the camera's own sensor cleaning capability. That has me a bit concerned. My memory says that my very old Canon 20D (which didn't have that tech) was a real dust collector. I'm hoping to just place one lens on the cam for most of the shooting - probably the 28mm pancake, which would allow me to travel with the IR in tow at less than a pound.
"You miss 100% of the shots you don't take" - Wayne Gretzky
Hmm, thermal infrared wouldn't be polarized, but reflected IR? Off the top of my head, it *should* be polarized as well, so it might make a perceivable difference. I think empirical testing on that would be much easier than me trying to figure it out in my head. I'll look and see what sizes my CP's are and try one. the great thing about reflected IR is that it is scattered much less than blue light, so on hazy days the IR cuts right through the haze. I'll try to dig up a gif I made once demonstrating that.
You also lose the dust removal properties on the OM-D because it's built into the filter that's removed, and that capability is doubly missed since the shutter is open for lens changes, and the IBIS makes it hard to do-it-yourself wet sensor cleaning. So I too want to find a couple of lenses that work best on the camera and mostly leave them on. The kit lens, the Oly m.zuiko 12-50mm was great at ~900nm, but had a slight hotspot with the 720nm (but not nearly as bad as the Tokina 11-16mm lens I was trying with my IR rebel), so that might not end up being the one, I was hopeful when I saw the 900mm images like the one I posted above. the kit lens may still work if it's a limited number of aperture/focal length combinations that cause the hotspot. So far the FD lenses I've tried haven't had hot spots, and manual focus isn't bad since it's all sensor based on the OM-D. The old zuiko primes that I haven't tried yet are so small and light they wouldn't be bad either.
I just realized what that little buzzing at the back of my head was when I first read this. The strong IR reflection in plants isn't exactly due to the green pigments. It's because the pigments don't absorb in the reflected IR part of the spectrum, and so the cell structure of the plants can reflect the reflected infrared wavelengths back out. A green card will sorta work if you don't have any vegetation, but probably won't substitute for scenes with vegetation in that you want to be white.
"You miss 100% of the shots you don't take" - Wayne Gretzky
Burned spot in the top center is just from the quick downsizing. I wanted clear skies for this shot, but got a monsoon socking us in.
900nm, m.zuiko kit lens.
And just FYI, what I shoot with is a Panasonic GF5 with the 14mm pancake lens. I got both used, and they were $150 each, plus the conversion. I'm really happy with the size and IQ of the setup, at this price point.
Here's a few images.
Dgrin FAQ | Me | Workshops
Dgrin FAQ | Me | Workshops
Dgrin FAQ | Me | Workshops
The reason for this process is because the white balance pane can't go far enough to get the proper color. This method gives the color wheel a spin, putting the proper colors within range of LR.
Dgrin FAQ | Me | Workshops
Have you tried shooting RAW with your picture style set to monochrome, so that the camera will display a monochrome image while chimping? I rely more on the histogram than anything else when it comes to exposure with my IR camera.
I'm actually pretty cavalier about it, tbh. I set it to ISO 100 or 200, f/8 and aperture priority, exposure compensate a touch to protect highlights and snap away.
Dgrin FAQ | Me | Workshops
I don't use Lightroom, so that isn't an option ATM. I'll be picking up the converted camera at UPS in a couple days. I had it delayed since we are usually never home when they come by (I guess my cats could sign for it, maybe). It will take a while to play with the thing. I didn't WB before when I just used 720nm filters. What I did was just use the eyedropper tool in RAW placing on something that would have been green and BINGO. I mostly use DPP and then process from there in either B&W or do the color swap thing for false color in an embarrassingly old copy of Paint Shop Pro. Gets the job done. And in 16 bits too. So that will be my method right off the bat for a while to come. My new 18-55 IS STM el-cheapo lens that I got with my second SL1 might be my main lens, or perhaps the older 10-22. Either should work OK. I want to get the 28mm pancake (correction, urp, 24mm pancake) too, for ultimate lightness. That might come by summer, but I'm not in any hurry (unless I can get a deal).
The monochrome JPG trick seems like a great idea. I'll add that to my testing. It is winter here, so everything looks like an IR image right now.
"You miss 100% of the shots you don't take" - Wayne Gretzky
They've got some videos on WB here at LifePixel that are good. Look at the one titled "Infrared RAW file white balance issues & solutions"
"You miss 100% of the shots you don't take" - Wayne Gretzky
ISO 200, 1/60, f/8, +2/3EV
Above is a really stupid color test shot towards the sky with leafless trees and pine which were mostly dark brown to the normal eye. The reflected IR light changed all that -- a bit.
CA is pretty much all over the place, at least with the 18-55. Setting automatic lens-based CA correction in-camera is bad, I learned, because the correction does the opposite. Manual slider-based correction is a better idea. The Color Blur setting had to be turned off in Canon DPP because it was causing more color blur. I tried DPP's Digital Lens Optimizer on some test photos and found that it didn't like IR images at all (not a biggie, for IR, IMO). I haven't tried color swapping yet with this cam, but from my previous experience, that's an easy step in post. I can't wait until the greenery comes out and the skies get more dramatic. :ivar
EDIT: I now keep the CA adjustments box unchecked in DPP, and that works better for some reason. Apparently, less correction is more correction. Weird.
A rather pleasant discovery was that auto-focus through the finder also works pretty darn well with the 18-55 IS STM, even though it absolutely shouldn't work at all. That method also messes up auto exposure by a stop and a half. Most likely I will stick solely with live view auto focus on the LCD because that is dead simple and exposure worked way better that way. Just move the focus cursor around the screen with your finger (ala iPhone) and the camera beeps when properly focused and snap.
"You miss 100% of the shots you don't take" - Wayne Gretzky
IR pics look like the snow in my back yard
and a walking bridge:
Also, I have been setting a custom white balance in the camera of a color photo of green grass backlit by sunlight. Seems to work as well as picking a green leaf with the dropper tool in DPP in post. Either work. In-camera is easiest since the setting is kept in DPP edits in either B&W or color versions of the RAW files.
The next experiment is getting the 24mm pancake lens. The camera firmware won't recognize the 24, nor are there any firmware updates available. I don't know what I'll find with IR induced CA problems. There is minimal CA with the 18-55, but what is there is easily dealt with in post. My current copy of DPP won't recognize the 24, so this could get interesting. If all else fails with the wide pancake, I will be able to fix them in post in about a year with a new computer and software updates, or continue with the 18-55. Both lenses should work with my other unmodified SL1.
"You miss 100% of the shots you don't take" - Wayne Gretzky
IR makes summer look like winter
So the 24mm pancake lens showed up tonight. Very lightweight lens, and B&H shipped it a big puffy box. Was delivered onto my porch when away. Found it as I came home at 9:45pm. Almost didn't find it at all. Very windy day and the wind had blown the box off the porch and halfway into the street. I hate to think where it might have ended up had I come home another hour later. Perhaps I would have run over it pulling up to my driveway.
Anyway, as soon as i have time, and if the sun decides to make an appearance, I want to see what this does for IR. The SL1 doesn't have an update to figure out what a 24mm pancake lens is, and neither does my copy of Canon's DPP. So this will be interesting. Hopefully, CA will be somewhat controlled right off the bat. I also want to find out if a circular polarizer does anything to darken the blue sky at 90 degrees to the sun. That arrived in the same package.
EDIT: CA seems pretty controlled with the 24 pancake in IR. OTOH, there is noticeable CA with my conventional un-modded SL1 with the 24.
"You miss 100% of the shots you don't take" - Wayne Gretzky
I tested a polarizer with the IR cam today. Strange results and quite unexpected. Normally, a polarizer can be adjusted to work to it's maximum effect at any angle that is 90 degrees to the Sun. With an IR setup, I couldn't get any darker skies at 90 degrees. I wasn't expecting much to happen since I've read that one can't gain much from using them.
But, the unexpected part is that the polarizer had a BIG effect with the Sun behind me - or at 180 degrees from the Sun. This is really good news since IR scenes are usually at their best with the Sun behind the photographer. 8am to 10am and again at 2pm to 4pm are great times of the day for this type of photography.
So yes, polarizers do work with IR cams (and presumably IR filters such as Hoya R72 and the like), but they work with opposite results to normal white light photography.
polarizer at minimum setting:
ISO 200, 1/60, f/8.0, 10am
polarizer at maximum setting:
ISO 200, 1/60, f/8.0, 10am
I am excited not just because the sky is noticeably darker, but the trees at the left and the right have more "IR effect." The scene overall has more contrast. It is important to note that the exposure is exactly the same with these two photos. I am also happy that I can reuse this 30+ year old 55mm circular polarizer and 52mm to 55mm step up ring again on the pancake lenses. Win - win.
"You miss 100% of the shots you don't take" - Wayne Gretzky
Excellent information!
Moderator of the Cameras and Accessories forums
You're welcome, Ziggy. I haven't looked at the native color file yet. I want to determine to what degree this helps/doesn't help a false color interpretation. And I also need to do more real tests in the field and under different daylight conditions. But on the surface, this first result has made me very happy.
One of my upcoming tests is a real crazy one. Place a Hoya R72 filter in front of the lens on an already converted IR camera. Ultra-InfraRed?
"You miss 100% of the shots you don't take" - Wayne Gretzky