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Commercial License Price Help

WirenWiren Registered Users Posts: 741 Major grins
edited August 20, 2014 in Mind Your Own Business
I want to hear from y'all (even you Glort :rofl). Here is detailed info with my question. I know ultimately pricing is what I make it and I need a "what I want vs what I will take" price range..... but that is difficult, this is an exercise in "what would you do".......

Here's the Sitch....

I was approached by a friend of my brother who wants to license one of my images, he has a business that focuses on Information Governance for businesses. He recently went way out of his way to help me create a special image for my wife (anniversary gift), he is a great guy and I have a lot of respect for him, so I want to give him a good and fair price, but I don't want to scare him away or sell myself short either. I've never gotten a chance to sell an image to be licensed before and am worried my ineptitude will ruin the deal....

He wants to use this image for his new website splash page Sunset%20Solitude-L.jpg.


This is the last email that I got from him... I feel like I didn't ask the right questions as his answers have me a tad perplexed.... and can I just say that stock image sites feel like an icky Wally World to me.... :puke1

Good morning Lee,

Thank you again for the wonderful gift... it's awesome!

Not sure if you started your "research on image licensing so that I can bring you a fair market price for the use you intend with the image.", but I finally took some time to look into your inquiry about pricing.
Unfortunately, there's not a lot out there that meets your/ours specific situation. I did look at Getty and Shutterstock pricing as well as a few others. For example, you can purchase 2 photos from Shutterstock for only $29 and others are Royalty free. Of course I expect to pay you for the art of your images, and of course more than $29.

Here are the answers to your questions:

1. What is the size expected size of your intended target audience.
Not entirely sure how to quantify the "expected size", but we're hoping initially for around 2,000 site visitors within the first month, with it dropping off sharply to only a couple dozen a day. We're not a high-volume retailer or selling an actual product- we're a services company, so that changes the dynamic of site visits quite a bit.
2. What, if any, other applications other than use on your website are you looking for? Brochures, pamphlets, fliers, cards....?
Most likely just the website. We don't plan on producing brochures; however, at some point we may want to include your images in educational materials delivered via the Web - probably in .pdf form. Perhaps if/when we reach that point we can renegotiate pricing.
3. Expected duration of use. Will this image be something you may desire to change within a year, 2 years, 5....?
Not entirely sure... I want to keep our website fresh, with image updates no less than annually. But, as stated above, we may want to include your images in other materials.
In any respect, I hope this helps you determine what you think is a fair price- good luck and I look forward to hearing from you. BTW- I don't need an answer until the end of this month.
Thank for your consideration,


So... if this was your deal.... and you wanted more than $30 for your image, what would you do...? What do I want you ask... :dunno, I know my want vs take amounts... but the take amount seems to high for what his email suggests... what would you charge? I'm thinking of a 1mb size shot for $1k - am I out of my mind.......:dunno I need to know so I can work it out and get the sale :deal

Thanks ahead, look forward to all your replies, both positive, negative and inbetween.

Lee
Lee Wiren

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    GlortGlort Registered Users Posts: 1,015 Major grins
    edited July 28, 2014
    Well Seeing you asked.... rolleyes1.gif

    I have no idea.
    I have never licenced an image, only sold them.
    From what I have read on forums, The impression I have got is that if you are dealing with a big company for a national or international campaign, then it's worthwhile negotiating a licence when there is big money on the table.

    For the smaller clients, It appears to me to be more hassel than it's worth trying to calculate the vairables. Every resource you look at suggests a very different number and seldom does the figure decided on appear to be agreeable enough to both parties for money to change hands.

    If it were me, I'd simply say this is how much, you can't onsell the pic to anyone else and be done with it. No worrying about file sizes, useage, time or anything else. I'd just let them know if another client miracled along wanting the same Image, I'd be selling it to them as well.

    Sorry, that's all I got, but that "photographically incorrect" bit of thinking ought to be enough to put some peoples nose out of joint and get you some more helpful responses to your problem. :D
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    WirenWiren Registered Users Posts: 741 Major grins
    edited July 28, 2014
    Glort wrote: »
    Well Seeing you asked.... rolleyes1.gif

    I have no idea.
    I have never licenced an image, only sold them.

    For the smaller clients, It appears to me to be more hassel than it's worth trying to calculate the vairables. Every resource you look at suggests a very different number and seldom does the figure decided on appear to be agreeable enough to both parties for money to change hands.

    If it were me, I'd simply say this is how much, you can't onsell the pic to anyone else and be done with it. No worrying about file sizes, useage, time or anything else. I'd just let them know if another client miracled along wanting the same Image, I'd be selling it to them as well.

    Sorry, that's all I got, but that "photographically incorrect" bit of thinking ought to be enough to put some peoples nose out of joint and get you some more helpful responses to your problem. :D

    Bummer, I was hoping that you had experience with licensing....

    Appreciate your time and response Glort. I have pretty much decided to do just that, give them the price and be ready to walk away if they don't like it and not worry about it much further... I am pretty sure this deal won't work out... just my luck, everybody loves my shots, but doesn't want to pay for them..... I barely make enough to pay for my love of photography and not enough to buy any better lenses/gear.... oh well, keep pushing that button..... rolleyes1.gif

    Lee
    Lee Wiren
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    slpollettslpollett Registered Users Posts: 1,200 Major grins
    edited July 28, 2014
    OK, I am NOT an expert on licensing images, so take what I say with a grain of salt.

    I have some photographer friends who ventured into stock sales (& have sold a number of images). Before they launched their website, they did a LOT of research on prices and licensing terms. What they ended up doing was Rights Managed stock only and I 'think' the license is good for only a set time limit, but can be renewed. Their license fees currently range from $65 - $750 depending upon usage. When they first started, the micro stock sites weren't quite as popular as they are now. They have had to adjust their prices down from what they originally had in order to stay competitive. They've been doing this for 7-8 years now.

    The website is http://stockimageagency.com/photostore/index.php if you are interested in looking at it.

    I hope this is somewhat helpful to you.

    Sherry P.
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    WirenWiren Registered Users Posts: 741 Major grins
    edited July 28, 2014
    Stock image companies
    Thanks Sherry, I have been visiting several stock image websites in order to try to determine my price. What I am seeing is that you can indeed purchase an image for use... even on websites, but that use is limited in that you cannot use it as a business logo and such.

    I have looked at those sites (several of them anyhow). The way they drive the price down is what is killing me. When I tell him my lowest price he'll probably tell me i'm crazy and go to the big box stores that will sell it for pennies..... it's the stuff that makes photography not pay very well for some of us....

    For all the effort of not only taking, processing, hosting the image and the added time of making a binding legal contract for the specific use of the image in the way they want at the price they are thinking..., and to have renewal issues on top of that....... I would probably lose money (or make less than 5%)... and that does not make sense to my sanity....

    One take away from your post is the info of the price range your friends used.... which sounds like (on the upper end anyhow) what I was thinking... I had been thinking today of anywhere b/w $750 -$1,000 for a 1mb file - said and done, no renewals needed. If they agree to that... then we're all good, if not, I guess I don't get the sale or review a counter offer.....

    Thanks for the response and info

    Lee
    Lee Wiren
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    SamSam Registered Users Posts: 7,419 Major grins
    edited July 28, 2014
    Wiren wrote: »
    Thanks Sherry, I have been visiting several stock image websites in order to try to determine my price. What I am seeing is that you can indeed purchase an image for use... even on websites, but that use is limited in that you cannot use it as a business logo and such.

    I have looked at those sites (several of them anyhow). The way they drive the price down is what is killing me. When I tell him my lowest price he'll probably tell me i'm crazy and go to the big box stores that will sell it for pennies..... it's the stuff that makes photography not pay very well for some of us....

    For all the effort of not only taking, processing, hosting the image and the added time of making a binding legal contract for the specific use of the image in the way they want at the price they are thinking..., and to have renewal issues on top of that....... I would probably lose money (or make less than 5%)... and that does not make sense to my sanity....

    One take away from your post is the info of the price range your friends used.... which sounds like (on the upper end anyhow) what I was thinking... I had been thinking today of anywhere b/w $750 -$1,000 for a 1mb file - said and done, no renewals needed. If they agree to that... then we're all good, if not, I guess I don't get the sale or review a counter offer.....

    Thanks for the response and info

    Lee

    Let's see you took a photo on your own for yourself, and a 'great guy who helped you out for free" wants to use this image that is sitting in your computer gathering virtual dust.

    Photography isn't your full time business, you have never sold image usage, and have no standard prices. You may loose twice here, once will be not making a sale, the second will be by trying to quote a price that the client thinks is unreasonable.

    Scenario: You quote $1000.00, he chokes and says he thought $150.00 would be fair. What are your choices? Renegotiate, if you drop down to anything near where he is you will look like a greedy guy with one photo trying to squeeze the max out of the deal. If you say Oh well to bad see ya later, I don't perceive him leaving with a positive impression.

    It's up to you if you come in with a quote that chokes him, I think you will loose everything. If you come in with a lower price that, let's say he would have been willing to pay, you have only forgone a little money and won every where else.

    If you were a business with a price list and your price was $1000.00 and you offered it for $750.00 even if the price was beyond his budget he would see you tried, and would not hold it against you.

    Good luck and let us know how it works out.

    Sam
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    WirenWiren Registered Users Posts: 741 Major grins
    edited July 28, 2014
    Sam wrote: »
    Let's see you took a photo on your own for yourself, and a 'great guy who helped you out for free" wants to use this image that is sitting in your computer gathering virtual dust

    Yes this great guy assisted me. In thanks I gave him a 12x24 Styrene backed image similar, but different to what I gave my spouse. And to set the record straight... this image is not collecting dust on my hard drive.... it is on display at the local co-op gallery that I am an active member of and available for sale on my website
    Sam wrote: »
    Photography isn't your full time business, you have never sold image usage, and have no standard prices. You may loose twice here, once will be not making a sale, the second will be by trying to quote a price that the client thinks is unreasonable.

    You are quite right here... I have not licensed any imagery for business use before... which is why I am seeking assistance.
    Sam wrote: »
    Scenario: You quote $1000.00, he chokes and says he thought $150.00 would be fair. What are your choices? Renegotiate, if you drop down to anything near where he is you will look like a greedy guy with one photo trying to squeeze the max out of the deal. If you say Oh well to bad see ya later, I don't perceive him leaving with a positive impression.

    Ok... I do have pricing for image downloads... not being sure about the business aspect, I took a cue from Andy and priced it so high that nobody would really look twice at it...

    I have pricing for personal use image downloads... web size for $50, lo-res for $150 and hi-res for $400, I ask for assistance because while I don't want to ask an incredulous amount, I want to be higher than my personal use fees..., don't I? headscratch.gif I ask because I am not sure how much above the personal use fees I already have listed I should ask for.....
    Sam wrote: »
    It's up to you if you come in with a quote that chokes him, I think you will loose everything. If you come in with a lower price that, let's say he would have been willing to pay, you have only forgone a little money and won every where else.

    This again is why I am asking... I don't want to lose the sale, but don't want to ask for too little.... he knows by his own admission that $30 ain't gonna do it and is willing to pay more.... he has also stated that he may decide to purchase a large size metal print that I have a price of $500 on... but I fear losing the sale of that image if I push the sale of the license away.... but yet again... how much to I ask for (specifically) without fear of pushing everything away.....?!?!?!?
    Sam wrote: »
    If you were a business with a price list and your price was $1000.00 and you offered it for $750.00 even if the price was beyond his budget he would see you tried, and would not hold it against upi

    As stated above... I am a business... just a part time type. My current price for a lo-res (1mb) commercial download is $2,250.00..... so I am thinking of offering it to him for 750-1k.... which would be enough above my personal license fee and not astronomical like the $2,250 price but something more in-between. Do I still seem like a schmuck for asking that much or do I seem a little less unreasonable in your opinion.....?

    I do hope you respond... my original message I know may have sounded disjointed, but I was sending out on a time limit (the 9-5 calls at 9 ya know) and I was trying to include enough not to be extremely vague.... does any of the above hold water? Do I still sound like a noob when it comes to thinking about pricing? I know I must since I have never licensed to a business....

    But truly Sam, you've been around the block more than me... I am looking for the "What would Sam charge in this situation" answer to see if it meshes up with my thoughts.... I just worry that anything less than 500 would be selling myself short and anything more than 750-1k would be WAAYYYYY too much.

    Again, I appreciate your reply and opinion Sam, look forward to your response.

    Lee
    Lee Wiren
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    SamSam Registered Users Posts: 7,419 Major grins
    edited July 28, 2014
    Your last response provided me with some additional clarity, thanks.

    Since you do have a business, this does put you in a different category.

    I don't see any benefit with the practice of making up outrageous pricing you know no one will purchase.

    I tend to look this as well as the world a little differently. :D That said any time a sale, business opportunity, pops up that is way out of your business norm I don't think the discussion can realistically fall back on any pricing of other products or services. You are in a pure haggle situations.

    Your goal should be to strike a deal that lets you both leave the table feeling good. This isn't about winning a contest your client isn't you opponent.

    Since I view this as a haggle situation, and I don't know your client it's really hard for me to give you a price.

    I did note this seems to be a very small business. As such his ability to pay for this may be limited.

    If your research shows a micro image for $30.00 and a rights managed image for $750.00 to $1000.00 your $500.00 sounds in line, but I wouldn't bother with limiting the file size if he's talking about using it for brochures and other small print use.

    You should add a link to your website at the bottom of your posts.

    Sam
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    WirenWiren Registered Users Posts: 741 Major grins
    edited July 29, 2014
    Sam wrote: »
    Your last response provided me with some additional clarity, thanks.

    Since you do have a business, this does put you in a different category.

    I don't see any benefit with the practice of making up outrageous pricing you know no one will purchase.

    I tend to look this as well as the world a little differently. :D That said any time a sale, business opportunity, pops up that is way out of your business norm I don't think the discussion can realistically fall back on any pricing of other products or services. You are in a pure haggle situations.

    Your goal should be to strike a deal that lets you both leave the table feeling good. This isn't about winning a contest your client isn't you opponent.

    Since I view this as a haggle situation, and I don't know your client it's really hard for me to give you a price.

    I did note this seems to be a very small business. As such his ability to pay for this may be limited.

    If your research shows a micro image for $30.00 and a rights managed image for $750.00 to $1000.00 your $500.00 sounds in line, but I wouldn't bother with limiting the file size if he's talking about using it for brochures and other small print use.

    You should add a link to your website at the bottom of your posts.

    Sam

    Thanks Sam.

    Sorry for not linking my site... it's Prismatic Imagery

    I appreciate your time and responses.

    I am feeling that I will proceed with the following.

    1. set up a one on one with him and have the file on disc and ready with all the metadata and attached to the image.

    2. Talk to him and tell him I would like $750 for the full res image with my full rights to the image and allowances for him to use on his website and whatever uses he needs (doesn't sound like a whole lot other than .pdf handouts) and see if he wants to counter the price and be willing to go as low as $500.

    3. I will be prepared to explain my pricing as we discussed in the previous mail and inform him those reasons for my pricing.

    4. While I don't want to lose the sale... I think he will be understanding and I know we can leave on good terms even if he chooses not to purchase the image license.... For this price, having the ability to use the image in ways to represent his company, in his logo but with all copyrights left to me, this seems like more than he would obtain through places like getty images and their ilk.... so seems fair....

    I will keep you updated... I will try to meet up with him in the next couple of weeks.

    Again, appreciate your time and sensible approach to the issue.

    Lee
    Lee Wiren
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    GlortGlort Registered Users Posts: 1,015 Major grins
    edited July 29, 2014
    There is one thing to this that sticks out to me.
    You have no idea what the guy has in mind. If he's licenced images before he may be thinking a grand and he also may be thinking $100. I think it's just as big a mistake to assume your are too high as going to low.
    In things that I have no idea of, I try to be direct with the client and say something like" I know I'm thinking a lot more than you are, can we cut to the chase and you tell me what it's worth to you and I'll tell you yes or no."

    That seems to give me a lot of scope to move around. If they want to know what I'm thinking I'll tell them and see where we can go from there. If, for example the guy came back with $150 and I was thinking $500 mnin and had quoted 750, I would be inclined to say, "Thats a long way from $750, can you do $300 and we put this to bed?".

    But like I say, I don't licence and don't sell pics in the way you do and I don't know the other things that are important to you. I shoot images that are really only of value to one person, the person they are taken of so I'm pretty flexible on prices because I have virtyually no investment in any individual image and every dollar made is one I didn't have before.

    That's very different to you though and you need to be careful not to bastardise your product. You can always go down but going up is a whole different ball game.



    As an aside, I think I have seen some of your pics before here but not looked at your galleries.
    Landscapes and scenery have never been anything I have been into, but stuff me you have some incredibly beautiful pictures there mate! I'm not easily impressed, especialy with that sort of work but
    I'm sitting here looking at the detail and subtely of your images just going WOW!

    You are a lot braver than I Lee thats for sure. Much to the upset of some, I like stuff I can crunch numbers on and put myself in front of the clients to do my sales rather than just rely on my talent and hope they find me to buy individual High end pics.
    I think you are working THE singlemost difficult area of photography out there. Every man and his dog seem to want to do it and the end result is people like yourself with astonishing talent and artistry get lost in the massive crowd. I tend to look for opportunities to avoid over saturated markets. You're playing in the most over saturated one of all IMHO.

    Your work is brilliant but unfortunately people don't want to pay anything for anyones images these days, not just yours. I'm lucky to be in markets I can leverage emotional attachments but thats still hard enough. I think I'm half a chance at marketing but mine aren't big enough or round enough to take on the challenge you go after. I can make a nice living with my marketing skills propping up my lack of talent but in your favourite game, neither talent nor marketing skills are any sort of reassurance you can make a worthwhile dollar.

    All you can do is stick with it, drive the business side as much as you feel the inclination to and enjoy the rest.

    If you can't put this deal together, it's sure as ship not because there is anything you are lacking in the talent and skill departments.
    It's because the people that don't have what you do have killed the deal long before it even arrived by giving everything away.
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    WirenWiren Registered Users Posts: 741 Major grins
    edited July 29, 2014
    on a side note
    Kind words and high praise... I appreciate them all Glort, sometimes I always wonder if I just take images and try to sell them as a joke.... since as you say, the market is flooded with..... stuff.

    On a side note, I ran into this site; How to license an image that has a lot of easy to understand and useful info... not sure what algorithm he uses to come up with pricing but... it seems fairly current, putting in my clients basic parameters I can see that I am not too far off on what I was thinking about my pricing... and that makes me feel good and I have a way to explain the rights managed image license to my client in an understandable fashion.

    Now I just need to create a simple contract for signing if he agrees and see if I can make payday.... I would love to have him use my image and get paid for it, and since it doesn't sell often on the physical print side... it would be easy to take off the market for the time he specifies.

    Thought i'd share that link in case anybody else needs the info.

    This thread has been informative and constructive and I appreciate all the responses thus far.

    More to come.

    Lee
    Lee Wiren
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    SamSam Registered Users Posts: 7,419 Major grins
    edited July 29, 2014
    Glort brought up some good points. Don't be afraid to ask what their budget is. The normal response for small businesses and individuals seems to be "Gee I don't know". When they started looking for whatever service / project they want they will have some number in their head. We really need to know what that is.

    One other point I would make is I would recommend not trying to discuss your pricing directly, unless it involves renting, or buying special gear and or hiring assistants the client is not aware of. When your shopping for something do you really care why the business prices things the way they do?

    Rather than get into an esoteric discussion of arbitrary pricing, let the client know what you are offering, sell it!

    IE: Mr. potential client you are not just getting an image file, you are getting a full res file suitable for web, and printing. Why you could print this on a 24"X36" poster if needed. I am available to help with any issues you may have like image sizing, resolution, printing, color etc. I maintain multiple copies so you will never have to fear loosing the image. You are getting me as well as the image.

    Sam
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    WirenWiren Registered Users Posts: 741 Major grins
    edited July 29, 2014
    Great points Sam!

    It is true... I don't really care what parts or tools the mechanic needs to fix my car, just fix it and tell me the cost already.....

    Selling myself (and marketing in general) is my weakest area in business... (i'd say life as well, but I have a good job and an awesome spouse... so I had to have done something right... :D)

    I will be sure to stay off the esoteric planes and be sure to sell myself along with the image and what the client gets for his money.

    On a new side note, I sent a mail asking for confirmation of usage and had a response back already stating that use will be mainly US with some limited worldwide (planning for growth) use - mainly for web imagery on the website and at least one year.

    Using the model from the link in my previous post... this calculates out to about 1500 US... so not far off from my thoughts on pricing. The fact that it is a small but growing business with sights on all US states and potential (and hopeful) worldwide growth but not there yet makes me want to offer an initially lower price based on a model of expanding US Market for now... when they are more successful, I can request a different contract for an expanding Worldwide market..... I don't want to charge the worldwide price now since they have not gotten there yet..... should I explain that to the client... that i'm working the price tailor fitted to the size they state they're at currently so that they don't break their budget....?

    I was thinking that with their expanding US Market audience right now that pricing it at $750, telling them that they get the Image Management and my services... image is "not for sale" or listed on my site as it is licensed to them for the term of the contract. This will hopefully be a low enough price for them and will be more than I would likely make on the image in the next 12 months... (as stated by Glort previously, folks just don't buy art to hang anymore... that's is a known quantity and I would have to sell the image 2 or 3 times to make that profit point....which is not likely to happen in a year).

    He arrives back in town next week and we can schedule a meeting....

    What, if anything, do I need to have in way of a contract.... a written "just the facts" statement of services for price paid that we both sign... or do I need to get in depth with the legal bs....?

    Lee
    Lee Wiren
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    SamSam Registered Users Posts: 7,419 Major grins
    edited July 30, 2014
    Wiren wrote: »
    Great points Sam!
    Selling myself (and marketing in general) is my weakest area in business... (i'd say life as well, but I have a good job and an awesome spouse... so I had to have done something right... :D)

    A lot of honest people have this "problem". While there is more than one factor that contributes to this, I believe the underlying factor is that they are honest.

    Con artists and politicians are legendary for their brazen claims of accomplishment and capabilities.

    So I would ware this "problem" as a badge of honor.

    What, if anything, do I need to have in way of a contract.... a written "just the facts" statement of services for price paid that we both sign... or do I need to get in depth with the legal bs....?

    While I really hate to put this into writing, there are time when you do need an attorney, but beware, they can cause more problems than they solve.

    I would look at my risk / reward. Risk is they use the image in a way you didn't anticipate or cover in your layman created contract costing some add on fees. The reward at this time looks like $750.00. Do you believe it would be prudent to give half or more for a better written contract to protect against some unknown loss of future fees?

    One more thought, is the client asking for exclusive use of the image? If not, don't offer it! If he does, definitely raise the price, substantially.

    Please keep us posted!!

    Sam
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    WirenWiren Registered Users Posts: 741 Major grins
    edited July 30, 2014
    He hasn't really said he wants exclusive rights to the image.. but as he wants to use it to promote his business... I would think that I could convince him it would be in his best interest... hence why I was planning on asking my high price - as such, it would be "off the market" during the time of the agreement.

    In a short bit of research last night, I ran across a site that talks about licensing images and such and had better info than I had found so far. It explains a lot of what a person in the photog biz needs to know, common terms and even what and why and how to write up a contract that will tailor it for the photog and client... not a fill in the blank with your own names type, but what you need to write depending on the situation and why and after doing your homework, write it yourself info....

    I plan on using the techniques that I found on that site to create my own contract to fit this need so I have something that will cover what the client is intending and make a go of it.

    I will certainly update when all is done... cross your fingers that all this talk and research doesn't go to waste due to the client deciding not to buy in.....

    Lee
    Lee Wiren
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    SamSam Registered Users Posts: 7,419 Major grins
    edited July 30, 2014
    Lee,

    In the scheme of things whether he buys or not the time spent isn't wasted. You learned a lot. Knowledge is good.

    Sam
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    WirenWiren Registered Users Posts: 741 Major grins
    edited August 8, 2014
    Update
    Wanted to update you all on the progress of this discussion.

    I met with my client this morning. I outlined and educated him in the differences between Royalty Free and Rights Managed images. I also explained that while so many stock image sites work on credits and subscriptions that cost a lot of money with limited uses of the images, the sites that let you price an image and purchase like a regular product instead of a complicated credit system shows higher than the price I offered.

    The client took the number I quoted well, but stated it was higher than he thought it would (or should) be. After talking about other things for an hour, we left with him stating that he would look at his plans and finances and get back to me in a week.......

    I am expecting that he will ultimately decide that the price I quoted was too high (even though it was about $300) less than what Getty images quoted the same use at.... I suspect that he may want to take the info I gave to him and do a little research on his own to confirm what I gave him before he comes to a decision.

    Hopefully he will come to the conclusion that the price I gave was truly a fair market price and decide to purchase the image he wants from me, barring other limitations of previous financial obligations he has.

    In the end, I have learned a lot and know where I stand on the issue of licensing. I met another photog recently who uses 500px to sell image licenses of his photo's and he states that he earns about $200/mo on the average... not sure I would want to go that route as it seems like the amount they give to the photog is about 20%..... seems like a rip off to me....

    It was a good discussion with my client, we talked a lot about the business opportunity and life in general, from families to business. He is a great fellow still and I sure enjoyed talking with him. I gave my walk away price and if he chooses not to buy the image license, I can walk away without lowering that price and feel good about my decision.

    I'll update more when I hear back from him to let you all know if I was successful or not.

    Lee
    Lee Wiren
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    SamSam Registered Users Posts: 7,419 Major grins
    edited August 9, 2014
    Thanks for the update!

    Sam
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    orljustinorljustin Registered Users Posts: 193 Major grins
    edited August 14, 2014
    You made this way too difficult. It's a good acquaintance/friend. He only wants to use it for his website. He can find plenty of similar images for a few bucks.

    "Licensor grants licensee the right to utilize content online as part of ZZZ.com website for a period of one year. Licensee may not otherwise use, redistribute or sell the content. Further permissions must be negotiated in writing for additional cost. Price: $100."

    Wallah.
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    WirenWiren Registered Users Posts: 741 Major grins
    edited August 18, 2014
    orljustin wrote: »
    You made this way too difficult. It's a good acquaintance/friend. He only wants to use it for his website. He can find plenty of similar images for a few bucks.

    "Licensor grants licensee the right to utilize content online as part of ZZZ.com website for a period of one year. Licensee may not otherwise use, redistribute or sell the content. Further permissions must be negotiated in writing for additional cost. Price: $100."

    Wallah.

    Hmmm, yes, I agree that like a lot of folks, I tend to over complicate any issue.... on the other hand, there is over simplification that causes problems..... while your solution keeps it simple, I think perhaps it is just that... too simple....

    I have run into so many times where things are easily completed by the simple solution, until one of the parties changes their mind and decides they want to do things differently and in a way the other party never intended.... then your pregnant with the problem... at that point you're on the hook as business is done and your recourse for re-negotiation is limited... since you didn't spell it out in the first place, the simply worded statement doesn't hold water....

    besides... I didn't want to go at $100.... the print (I do mainly metal for artwork) in a decent size (12x24) retails at $350.... if I give a file away at $100, I haven't made much for my effort have I?

    I want to value my work more than giving the cheap price. Yes, he can get similar images on microstock sites for cheaper... but he wants this image, not those.... you can either pay for what you want, or get something you don't want for less, I am ready to walk away when the price is lower than what I wish to get. I may not get this sale, and I am ok with that, I learned a lot about image licensing and where my bottom line is.... I made a fair offer and we will see where that goes.

    Thanks for your input though, I do tend to overcomplicate things..... it's always good to remember that.

    Lee
    Lee Wiren
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    WirenWiren Registered Users Posts: 741 Major grins
    edited August 19, 2014
    And I digress
    In second response to the idea that I over complicated things a bit and should have kept it simple to gain the sale... this thread http://dgrin.com/showthread.php?t=248968 shows a very good example of why specifically stating intent of exact use needs to occur.

    Maybe the OP of that thread had things spelled out (I certainly hope so for their sake), but if it was a general "no other uses" blanket statement, that may not be enough and because it wasn't specifically stated, the client is using their leeway of doing what they want, hence making a mess for the photographer to not only discover, but now unravel. If you clearly state things in exact terms of what can and cannot be done, it helps deter this from happening (it can stll occur, but you have better recourse afterwards).

    Lee
    Lee Wiren
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    orljustinorljustin Registered Users Posts: 193 Major grins
    edited August 20, 2014
    Wiren wrote: »
    Hmmm, yes, I agree that like a lot of folks, I tend to over complicate any issue.... on the other hand, there is over simplification that causes problems..... while your solution keeps it simple, I think perhaps it is just that... too simple....

    I have run into so many times where things are easily completed by the simple solution, until one of the parties changes their mind and decides they want to do things differently and in a way the other party never intended.... then your pregnant with the problem... at that point you're on the hook as business is done and your recourse for re-negotiation is limited... since you didn't spell it out in the first place, the simply worded statement doesn't hold water....

    besides... I didn't want to go at $100.... the print (I do mainly metal for artwork) in a decent size (12x24) retails at $350.... if I give a file away at $100, I haven't made much for my effort have I?


    We aren't talking about prints. We're only talking about use on a website. The "contract" states that. If he goes outside the use, he violates the terms. But, do you really think your good acquaintance friend will do that?

    You already made the "effort" with no thought of compensation. You were happy with zero. So you should be happy with anything more, right?
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    WirenWiren Registered Users Posts: 741 Major grins
    edited August 20, 2014
    orljustin wrote: »
    We aren't talking about prints. We're only talking about use on a website. The "contract" states that. If he goes outside the use, he violates the terms. But, do you really think your good acquaintance friend will do that?

    You already made the "effort" with no thought of compensation. You were happy with zero. So you should be happy with anything more, right?

    I still disagree (respectfully)... and I am sure you'll say i'm still making this too complicated, but lets just play this out under the guise that even acquaintences and friends sometimes do things that are not intended and in bad flavor without even realizing it..... (some do realize it, but I digress).

    Sale made to friend/acquaintence who seems like an upright dude.... his moral compass seems on point and they seem like a smart individual who has my best intentions in mind... which is why they are willing to pay $100 for the image they like so much. They uderstand that I have sold them this image to use on their website and sign some piece of paper to that effect..... cool, deal done, all happy.......

    3 months later, the friend/acquaintence has gotten great kudos on the image displayed on the home page of this site.... he decides a copy of the image in his office would be a great thing to have... he has the file of the image and Costco is just down the road... he can order a paper print for just a few bucks and buy a cheap frame to put it in..... or he can call his buddy up and ask for a print.. but even at a discounted price his photographer friend may give him for a quality print, it would be more than he wants to pay....

    In lieu of dealing with the price bartering with the photographer, the friend/acquaintence reasons to themselves that since they paid for the image and have it on file, they are entitled to have a print made for their office where they want for the inexpensive cost.... and since it is probable that the photographer will never see it in their office, it is no big deal and they don't need to worry themselves with the language that was on the paper.....

    1 month later, a business associate who is in his office sees the print and says, wow! I would like a copy of that print, can you get me one......? From this point, you have to wonder and hope your friend/acquaintance will say, no, it's not his to sell and give your name to that person so they can purchase a print from the photographer.... but you know that some folks may uncaringly say... sure, i'll email you a copy of the print and you can make one off for yourself.......

    Or, even worse yet, the friend/acquaintance decides that he is allowed to submit the image to a contest / website (say.... weather.com?) / magazine (pick your poison) completely forgetting about the fact that your agreement said only on his website....

    You discover your image is out there, confront your friend/acquaintance who either says he didn't think it would be a big deal, apologizes but it's gonna be hell to pull the image from where it is.... and you getting compensated for said use is gonna be a struggle OR..... your friend/acquaintance gets defensive and asks what the hades your problem is and it should be no big deal... look at all the free advertising you're getting and decides that your acquaintenship is now a negative one......

    Mind you Justin, the above is the worst case scenarios I could come up with. Do I think this one would play out like this... no, I truly think this guys moral comapass and intelligence would preclude him from any of those actions. But I tend to make it a practice to try planning for the worst so I redcuce my headahes in the future.....

    If I sold it for $100 with even with a detailed contract specifying detailed usage of the image and god-forbid any of the above happening... is it really worth it to go to war with the fellow for the print price... the .com may pull the image down but compensating me would be like pulling teeth from a great white shark..... the cost of doing that would not be worth the initial $100 fee, I would end up losing money in the long run....

    Also, price conveys a lot to some folks... you get a watch at Wally World for $10 compared to one at a Jewelry store for $1,000... they both keep time, but which one are you going to make sure you don't dunk in the water? The cheaper the product means the less important and more disposable (contracts be damned) the product is because it's not worth the effort to fight over... pay a higher price and you have put more importance to the product and the care of it, including the specific contract that came with it.

    To me, a higher price for the quality product intuits a better response for following the lines of a contract than a product that was cheap to begin with. And, it duly pays the photographer for the time and effort spent on creating the image. These days we are all trying to make the sale and undercut competition just to make that sale and will piss and moan when we are treated unfairly until we realize that it ain't worth fighting over. I choose to stick with the higher price that may convey more importance to the product....

    Would I be happy with anything more than zero...... yes and no, I won't be happy with just $100, but I would be happy with the price I quoted... because while $100 is more than zero to you, in the long run, it may end up being a negative sum depending on how the world and the people you deal with treat you and your services. Sometimes cheaper isn't always a better deal.

    With that i'll end my rambling, sorry for the lenghy response, I realize that we disagree on this point, you have a good point that I may have overcomplicated this issue and I appreciate that note so I can look at future issues and remember to not do so....

    Cheers
    Lee Wiren
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    orljustinorljustin Registered Users Posts: 193 Major grins
    edited August 20, 2014
    If you're going to write a rights managed license (essentially what this is), you can't price it for everything that could actually ever happen. You price it for the use described and contracted. If you find a violation, you go from there, but that's part of what you deal with when licensing content.

    Now, he could buy a $20 image from Shutterstock or wherever, put it on his website, his brochure, print it out and put it on his wall, add it to his promotional calendars, and if you price too high, he might be fine doing that. Because, really, one sunset image is as nice as the next. And the point of RM is to price for the desired usage, not for the worst case scenario.
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    WirenWiren Registered Users Posts: 741 Major grins
    edited August 20, 2014
    orljustin wrote: »
    If you're going to write a rights managed license (essentially what this is), you can't price it for everything that could actually ever happen. You price it for the use described and contracted. If you find a violation, you go from there, but that's part of what you deal with when licensing content.

    Now, he could buy a $20 image from Shutterstock or wherever, put it on his website, his brochure, print it out and put it on his wall, add it to his promotional calendars, and if you price too high, he might be fine doing that. Because, really, one sunset image is as nice as the next. And the point of RM is to price for the desired usage, not for the worst case scenario.

    Understood... and I worked it up as a Rights Managed image, presented it to him that way. As I researched RM images (similar to mine) at all the big box stock agencies and acted as though I was him with the needs/wants he outlined.... the prices consistantly ranged between 200-400 more than what I quoted him, so I felt I gave him a fair offer. What were the prices you ask? for the uses he detailed, most of the major players were quoting about $1200..... I asked for $750

    So in my research, I tried to base on his need in comparison to what the big stock agencies do and because i'm a small potato guy, and a friendly acquaintence, I gave him a better price.... he then asked what the price would be for Royalty Free instead of Rights Managed, I quoted him $350, where as getty et al quoted b/w 5-600......

    Yes there are places to get an extremely small image RF for $20.... again, I am not going to go through all the work for 20-100....... not worth it to me. I was offering a large size image which is what he wanted......

    So, while I tried to fairly price it for the use intended in comparison with larger image retailers, I also account for the fact that there could be negative variables that I (unlike those big companies) am not easily equipped to handle easily which is why I spelled out the usage terms and made my price high enough to compensate me, but not so low as to not be worth my time in case bad mojo occurred.....

    It may not be the way you do it, but it's my frame of mind at this time, that could change in the future...... but not at this point.

    Can I ask because I am truly curious and learning, so this question is not snarky, just truly curious... do you sell images RF/RM style.... do you usually charge $20, $100.... what is your formula for selling your imagery and how do you determin your pricing... I ask because not many people do it to know what to say or care to share and I truly would like some real world examples from folks who do this often.....

    Thanks for all your input Justin.

    Lee
    Lee Wiren
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