More dynamic Range for 7D - iphone is blowing my mind.

Light11

:roflHello, first time posting, thanks to anyone who wants to talk about this... :rofl

I recently became pretty frustrated when I realized my girlfriend was getting better dynamic range out of her iphone camera then my 7d. All she has to do is press the magic wand button and produces insane dynamic range and details; as opposed to the 20 minutes I would have to spend editing my raw which I currently own an old version of DPP with no HDR capabilities, so can't really. I get that the 7d quality far surpasses the iphone, but on facebook or online galleries (small size) amateur eyes can't really tell the difference). :deal

Right now I find the Dynamic range on my 7d super crummy. Please tell me if what I'm planning will help solve my troubles:

1. Downloaded Techicolor cinestyle - picture profile for my canon 7d to achieve higher dynamic range out of the box. ( Are there other downloadable profiles for the 7d camera like the iphone has?)

2. New Macbook Pro with DDP capable of HDR editing to bring out the range I'm currently not getting. Probably photoshop too. Are there downloadable curves/ formulas /picture profiles I can use in post too?

Do you think this will solve my problem? Thanks for your help and any advice!!!!!!

-Light:barb

ziggy53

It sounds like you wish to take High Dynamic Range (HDR) images with your Canon 7D dSLR. Just as it takes a special app for the iPhone to make the most of its HDR possibilities, I gather "ProHDR" does a pretty good job, you will want a special application to make the best HDR images with the Canon 7D.

My personal HDR software choices are:

Dynamic-Photo HDR
Enfuse

The first is commercial software, but not terribly expensive. It directly competes with Photomatix Pro, which many consider the standard of comparison for HDR software. Dynamic-Photo HDR has one trick that most of the other software lacks; a "fake" HDR processing mode which only requires a single image capture. While it's not true HDR in the fake mode, it can produce some rather unique images nonetheless.

The second is open source and free software. While it's not an HDR product, it does work to extend the usable dynamic range of a scene by tone blending multiple exposures. The results are often more photo-realistic than true HDR.

For more information, about HDR in general and about the above products specifically:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-dynamic-range_imaging
http://www.stuckincustoms.com/hdr/

http://www.mediachance.com/hdri/
http://software.bergmark.com/enfusegui/Main.html
http://www.hdrsoft.com/

pathfinder

I have used a number of programs for HDR rendering of Raw files, but the time and effort can be significant. futzing with sliders and such. Bah, who needs it!?

Marc Muench recently pointed me to HDR SOFT MERGE TO 32-BIT HDR PLUGIN FOR LIGHTROOM OR PHOTOSHOP and I must say I have really become a fan. --

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8a_RgCuoTS8#t=86

It is so easy, you pick 3,4,5,or more unedited RAW files in Lightroom, and then process them via Photoshop with just 3 mouse clicks, and you end up back in Lightroom with a 32 bit tif file that is then edited in Lightroom with + or - 10 stops of exposure latitude, and the color quality is superb, and there are no haloes or noise. Outstanding, and this will work with 7D files, and many, many others.

I am using it for files from my dslr, to get files like this, straight into the sun!



The downside of the software is that it does require both Lightroom 5 AND Photoshop version 6+, but the plug in is cheap, and it leaves your 7D unaltered.

http://www.hdrsoft.com/download/merge_lrplugin.html

jmphotocraft

HDRs usually suck. To do them right is a very deliberate process, requiring at least 2, usually 3 or more tripod shots. Just get Lightroom and process your single images accordingly. DPP can't show you all the DR in Canon RAWs, and there is a lot more than you might think.

For example, ALL the sea foam in this shot was blank white before recovering highlights in LR.

pathfinder

The latest version of DPP is much, much better at dealing with high contrast range images too these days. Much, much better than the older versions, and I agree, good RAW rendering can do a pretty good deal for image quality.

Respectfully, I think saying HDR sucks is kinda like saying color images suck or black and white images suck. Some images suck, and some don't, to be sure, but whether they are color, or monochrome or HDR is not the reason. Bad color, bad monochrome, or bad HDR images all may suck, but there are very good ones of all three types of treatment.

I have always wondered why folks feel the need to point out that their image is "HDR", but never point out that their image is "color" or "black and white" It should be apparent to most knowledgeable viewers anyway, I would think. But then I think most images that need "explaining" are weaker than those that stand on their own appearance myself.

Perhaps the original poster might link some of the images he feels need improvement via HDR so that the readers can offer their suggestions as alternatives to HDR, et al.

jmphotocraft

The latest version of DPP (the only one that is any good with DR) isn't compatible with the 7D.

I didn't say HDR sucks.

billweckel

Hdr
I've tried several HDR apps and have never really been happy with the results, particularly on color photos. I'm learning that I can get some pretty nice range by using grad ND filters and polarization, without sacrificing my shadows and avoiding that so often abused "HDR look". I can get the stunning skies and a little more detail, but the images still look like actual photographs.

That plugin you mentioned looks really great. I'll have to pick it up when I make my forced move from Aperture to Lightroom. Thanks for mentioning it.

The newest iPhones take some pretty nice pictures and it irks me when my amateur friends end up with a better shot from their telephone than I got with my 5Dmk3!

Bill

pathfinder

GradNDs can work fine with a straight horizon, but I frequently find my horizon is anything but straight, so I tend to use bracketed exposure, and the plug in I mentioned is literally just three clicks without any thought, and voila I have a 32 bit tiff file for editing. Now that 32bitfile WILL require some work in LR or PS or both for final polishing, but it will be a file my iPhone can't touch.
When folks shot Kodachrome, they just accepted that the shadows were going to be black, period. Now we have choices, but more work.

Light11

THanks a lot for your response. Pathfinder, I think you are on the right path with marc. The pictures look super realistic. Your sunset has pretty good range in the mountains, exactly where i need to pick up more light. Are you bracketing these on a tripod, or just freehand and ghost reduction?

It sounds like the flow is Lightroom --> Photoshop6 --> HDR Pro --> Lightroom.

Do you ever use 1 RAW file and bracket it 3 different ways, or as Ziggy put it, fake HDR mode? hehe

you all are very smart, this message board rocks!!! :-[p

Bill, i took this picture with my iphone cause i didn't have my 7d on me. Don't know if i would have been able to pull these low light colors in the forground out of my 7d without bracketting shots. It may be over saturated and lower quality but it came right out of the camera, single shot with one touch filter. It gives my canon nightmares hehehe.

jmphotocraft

That's pretty wild. Which iPhone? What filter? Really one shot? I wouldn't say it's realistic looking, but it's technically impressive.

pathfinder

Light11 wrote: »

THanks a lot for your response. Pathfinder, I think you are on the right path with marc. The pictures look super realistic. Your sunset has pretty good range in the mountains, exactly where i need to pick up more light. Are you bracketing these on a tripod, or just freehand and ghost reduction?

It sounds like the flow is Lightroom --> Photoshop6 --> HDR Pro --> Lightroom.

Do you ever use 1 RAW file and bracket it 3 different ways, or as Ziggy put it, fake HDR mode? hehe

you all are very smart, this message board rocks!!! :-[p

Bill, i took this picture with my iphone cause i didn't have my 7d on me. Don't know if i would have been able to pull these low light colors in the forground out of my 7d without bracketting shots. It may be over saturated and lower quality but it came right out of the camera, single shot with one touch filter. It gives my canon nightmares hehehe.

Yes, the flow is select 3-10? unedited SOOC Raw files in LR -> Merge them to a single 32 bit HDR Pro in Photoshop, de-ghost if needed there -> PS save as a 32 bit tiff in Lightroom and then edit the 32 bit tiff ( like a RAW file with great dynamic range ) in Lightroom - If selections are then needed/desired for local editing a second pass to PS can then be made for local editing.

For faux HDR work with a single image, I just use Photomatix myself. You will get much more image noise with this route, since you are pushing your single RAW file into areas where it was not designed to go. Your are also more likely to get the more expected "typical HDR" look with more noise, and more haloes, which is what some folks object to for Landscape imagery. Depends on what your artistic intention is, I would say.

Your iPhone image looks pretty fair, but I suspect it has much more noise than you will get with a 3-5 frame set of RAW files via merge to HDR pro in the workflow I have described. One is faster and easier, and one will be higher quality - which is best will be determined by what your intentions for your image are. For small web based images, you may be completely satisfied with your iPhone images. You will not find the background bokeh that is possible with a crop body DSLR shot at f2.8 though. The smaller sensor in the iPhone will have much more depth of field, that may be a good thing, or a bad thing, depending on your artistic goals. Not needing both Lightroom and Photoshop is another major cost savings as well.

Shoot your &d in RAW, and expose to the right as far as you can without blowing highlights will help retain detail in the shadows as much as possible with a single file also.

billweckel

On the occasions I do HDR, I use the NIK Software app and it doesn't like when I've tried to trick it with one exposure. I recall getting some sort of warning box popup. I've pretty much replaced HDR with my grad filter+polarizer+tonality boost recipe and like the images it produces, because to my eye, they have all the pop of HDR without the negatives many people don't dig. FWIW, I have Photomatix too and much prefer the NIK app over it.

That iPhone image is pretty sweet. Nice to know that when you don't have your camera with you, you can still capture a scene you otherwise would have missed out on.

Pathfinder - Your photography is outstanding and I'm jealous of your travels!

Bill

www.billweckel.com

jmphotocraft

billweckel wrote: »

I've pretty much replaced HDR with my grad filter+polarizer+tonality boost recipe and like the images it produces, because to my eye, they have all the pop of HDR without the negatives many people don't dig.

Cool, got an example?

pathfinder

He has a website, Jack, here --> http://www.billweckel.com

He has a lot of great images, carefully edited and displayed. Very nice work indeed. Lots of great B&W images, too.

jmphotocraft

I saw that, lots of great stuff, I just wanted to know if he had any particular images in mind to illustrate the point. I'm also wondering if the grad filter is really necessary when Lightroom can basically do the same thing? Or can't it?

Light11

Awesome, thanks for the break down. Last major question...I usually don't bust out the tripod before 7pm, but I would like to know if its essential for the bracketing process or if you have been successful without one and just using ghost reduction keeping very still? MAinly because i will start using it leading up to my purchase of these fine tool.


Yeah bill, this is the iphone 5 latest model. i carry it as a second camera now.

lifeinfocus

billweckel wrote: »

..... I've pretty much replaced HDR with my grad filter+polarizer+tonality boost recipe and like the images it produces, because to my eye, they have all the pop of HDR without the negatives many people don't dig. ...
Bill

www.billweckel.com

I have not used filters yet, but I expect I should consider it.

Bill could you or somebody else in this discussion talk a little about "grad filter+polarizer+tonality boost recipe ".

Does that simply mean buying and using one of these, or something similar and some post processing tool?

Thanks, Phil

pathfinder

Light11 wrote: »

Awesome, thanks for the break down. Last major question...I usually don't bust out the tripod before 7pm, but I would like to know if its essential for the bracketing process or if you have been successful without one and just using ghost reduction keeping very still? MAinly because i will start using it leading up to my purchase of these fine tool.

While it is true that the best HDRs are shot with a tripod to shoot the multiple frames, the truth is that a lot of images ARE shot handheld with the camera in high speed frame rate shooting, and exposure bracketing turned on, and then shot as 3-5 frame bursts. If there is enough light so that your 2 stop positive over-exposure still has a fast enough shutter speed for hand held sharpness, this will usually work fine. The problem arises when you first normal exposure has a shutter speed say of 1/60th of a second - well that may be hand holdable but if you need 2 stops more light for the over exposure, now your shutter sped drops to 1/30 and on to 1/15th of a second for two stops more light. Now you shutter speed is getting really borderline for hand holding.

If you start with 1/30th of second for the normal exposure, then two stops more light is down to 1/8th of a second , and none of us can really handhold their camera immobile for 1/8th of a second. Thus the recommendation for a tripod. It all depends on your needed shutter speed for the focal length you are using, and how sharp you need the image to be for final display.

I try to keep my basic shutter speed for my first frame above 1/250th if I plan on handholding High Frame Rate HDR shots. I shoot a lot of hand held HDR collections of frames, but I always think about the issues of shutter speed when I do it. Usually modern HDR software will assemble the images and remove any ghosts just fine.

Certainly if you are going to be shooting long exposures for moving water for HDR, then a tripod is mandatory.

pathfinder

lifeinfocus wrote: »

I have not used filters yet, but I expect I should consider it.

Bill could you or somebody else in this discussion talk a little about "grad filter+polarizer+tonality boost recipe ".

Does that simply mean buying and using one of these, or something similar and some post processing tool?

Thanks, Phil

Phil, there are two different types of filter here. The one you linked is a variable density filters - this is a filter comprised of two polarizer elements, and you can rotate the front element when it is mounted on your camera lens, and vary the amount of light admitted to your lens by 3-8 stops of light. This is not a true polarizing filter, but a variable density filter. You can look through the viewfinder and dial down the amount of light admitted through the lens to allow a longer shutter speed, to to allow one to use a much wider aperture in bright light to get a shallow depth of field. Videograpehrs may use variable density filters to control exposure since they cannot vary shutter speed like still shooters too.

A different filter which Bill is using, is a graduated neutral density filter. This is typically a 4x6 inch rectangle with the top half 2 or 3 stops darker ( and a Neutral Grey ) than the bottom half which remains transparent. When mounted in a filter holder one can then photograph a very bright sky and a darker foreground within the dynamic range of a single frame exposure. A typical polarizing filter can be used in addition to a graduated neutral density filter to darken the sky and to reduce reflections from wet surfaces all in the same exposure.

lifeinfocus

pathfinder wrote: »

Phil, there are two different types of filter here. The one you linked is a variable density filters - this is a filter comprised of two polarizer elements, and you can rotate the front element when it is mounted on your camera lens, and vary the amount of light admitted to your lens by 3-8 stops of light. This is not a true polarizing filter, but a variable density filter. You can look through the viewfinder and dial down the amount of light admitted through the lens to allow a longer shutter speed, to to allow one to use a much wider aperture in bright light to get a shallow depth of field. Videograpehrs may use variable density filters to control exposure since they cannot vary shutter speed like still shooters too.

A different filter which Bill is using, is a graduated neutral density filter. This is typically a 4x6 inch rectangle with the top half 2 or 3 stops darker ( and a Neutral Grey ) than the bottom half which remains transparent. When mounted in a filter holder one can then photograph a very bright sky and a darker foreground within the dynamic range of a single frame exposure. A typical polarizing filter can be used in addition to a graduated neutral density filter to darken the sky and to reduce reflections from wet surfaces all in the same exposure.

Thanks for the detailed explanation.

Looks I have some fun research ahead of me!.

Phil

alaios

speaking of dynamic range expansion. Did you guys tried the http://www.hdrsoft.com/
they also have a free ebook to read
http://www.mediafire.com/view/s5k36z5qdcp8ecj/Complete+HDR+tutorial+by+Wojciech+Toman.pdf
looks intresting material

denisegoldberg

lifeinfocus wrote: »

Looks I have some fun research ahead of me!.

Phil -
If you're looking for a source for graduated neutral density filters, I use filters from http://www.singh-ray.com/.

--- Denise

lifeinfocus

denisegoldberg wrote: »

Phil -
If you're looking for a source for graduated neutral density filters, I use filters from http://www.singh-ray.com/.

--- Denise

Denise, thank you for the link. Much appreciated.

Phil

reflection

What most people are talking about when they're talking about HDR is really tone mapping. In all likelihood, the iPhone app is simply tone mapping a single image to bring out the mid-tone contrast. This produces some very nice effects. In some ways this is apples and oranges. Your girlfriend is taking a picture and then processing it in an app specifically designed to give an HDR appearance. You're using an old version of DPP: which is very unlikely to give great single button results. What I would suggest is that you get something like Lightroom and start processing all of your images with it. There are a large number of websites that offer free Lightroomn presets that can do some tone-mapping like effects with a single click. If you do get Lightroom, I would suggest that you add the NIK suite to it. You can get the entire Nik collection for $149. It includes many nice plugins including HDR Pro - works with one or more images, Silver Effects Pro 2 for B&W conversions, Sharpener Pro 3, Color EFxs 2, ...

Lightroom is considerably easier to learn and use than DPP. Just adding some "clarity" to an image can significantly enhance its pop. Why not give Lightroom a free trial ? I think you'll find that most of your images can be improved with only a little bit of effort.

Light11

reflection wrote: »

What most people are talking about when they're talking about HDR is really tone mapping. In all likelihood, the iPhone app is simply tone mapping a single image to bring out the mid-tone contrast. This produces some very nice effects. In some ways this is apples and oranges. Your girlfriend is taking a picture and then processing it in an app specifically designed to give an HDR appearance. You're using an old version of DPP: which is very unlikely to give great single button results. What I would suggest is that you get something like Lightroom and start processing all of your images with it. There are a large number of websites that offer free Lightroomn presets that can do some tone-mapping like effects with a single click. If you do get Lightroom, I would suggest that you add the NIK suite to it. You can get the entire Nik collection for $149. It includes many nice plugins including HDR Pro - works with one or more images, Silver Effects Pro 2 for B&W conversions, Sharpener Pro 3, Color EFxs 2, ...

Lightroom is considerably easier to learn and use than DPP. Just adding some "clarity" to an image can significantly enhance its pop. Why not give Lightroom a free trial ? I think you'll find that most of your images can be improved with only a little bit of effort.

I think you are right about the tone mapping. The sensor on the iPhone captures nice low light, and low contrast, then the in-camera program boosts the tones and contast for better final results after. The canon 7d "Standard" or "Landscapes" modes have more contrast build and less dynamic IQ in 1 single picture, leaving less room for tone mapping after. Canon cameras aren't built for instant gradifcation as far as I know…they should have this feature built-in already. Kinda crazy you have to spend 2,500 in computer and editing software to achieve the same computations that the $200 iPhone can complete in 2 seconds. But I guess you are paying for the quality and giant print capabilities in the end. Thanks Reflection! I look forward to getting better results from these new tools!

ziggy53

Light11 wrote: »

I think you are right about the tone mapping. The sensor on the iPhone captures nice low light, and low contrast, then the in-camera program boosts the tones and contast for better final results after. The canon 7d "Standard" or "Landscapes" modes have more contrast build and less dynamic IQ in 1 single picture, leaving less room for tone mapping after. Canon cameras aren't built for instant gradifcation as far as I know…they should have this feature built-in already. ...

I believe that many new dSLRs "do" have HDR capabilities built-in. For example the Canon 5D Mark III has an HDR mode of operation, explained briefly in this document:

http://www.learn.usa.canon.com/app/pdfs/quickguides/CDLC_HDR_Feature_QuickGuide.pdf

Also in this video:

http://youtu.be/qAJ9FQ3ID4s