Response to Watermark Criticism

jh4wvu

I shoot for a University marching band and posted a link to this weekend's photos on their Facebook page. Of course I use watermarks on my images since I don't get paid for the photography directly and rely on the sales to make money to cover expenses, etc.

So I am just curious how folks would respond to this or in general for those criticizing the use of watermarks.

"You know, if you can't share them without all the copyright...what's the point? There probably ARE people who would copy and use the photos online, or even sell one or two, BUT SO WHAT! If you're so concerned and with the attitude 'these pictures are MINE' and 'you can't have them', I'd rather see you not even post them at all. What could somebody POSSIBLY do with them...make wallpaper or wall hanging and increase exposure to the University?! How does that possibly hurt the University and what is the relative benefit of the University receiving increased exposure vs. the loss of a couple dollars on an obscure picture of the band? Good grief...the whole place has lost it's mind with (**Athletic Director's Name) money grab mentality."

Thanks,
Chris

Sam

jh4wvu wrote: »

I shoot for a University marching band and posted a link to this weekend's photos on their Facebook page. Of course I use watermarks on my images since I don't get paid for the photography directly and rely on the sales to make money to cover expenses, etc.

So I am just curious how folks would respond to this or in general for those criticizing the use of watermarks.

"You know, if you can't share them without all the copyright...what's the point? There probably ARE people who would copy and use the photos online, or even sell one or two, BUT SO WHAT! If you're so concerned and with the attitude 'these pictures are MINE' and 'you can't have them', I'd rather see you not even post them at all. What could somebody POSSIBLY do with them...make wallpaper or wall hanging and increase exposure to the University?! How does that possibly hurt the University and what is the relative benefit of the University receiving increased exposure vs. the loss of a couple dollars on an obscure picture of the band? Good grief...the whole place has lost it's mind with (**Athletic Director's Name) money grab mentality."

Thanks,
Chris

This is what kids are learning in school these days? Everything should be for free?

OK, now as to an answer:

Dear wants everything for free,

Did you have to pay to attend the University? Of course you did and I am sure you view this as money well spent for something you want. When you go to the school cafeteria do they offer free food? Of course not. Do you get into the game for free?

When I go to a game I take about $8000.00 worth of camera gear and commit the day to working. When I go home I sit down to my $5000.00 computer for many hours with extensive image processing software and external image back up drives. I also maintain a website (I pay for) where you can view the images.

Why would you expect to receive all the images for free?

While I don't expect to make a real profit doing this I am trying to eek out some funds to cover the gear I have as well as maintenance and replacement as necessary.

I can make you an attractive offer: The games draw about (25,000 ?) people. Get .05 t0 1.0 % to cough up $3.00 t0 $5.00 per game and I will post all the images without any watermarks and you can download all you want for personal use. I get enough to keep shooting and you get access to all the images for the cost of a hot dog, all while helping your fellow students get all the images as well.

Of course you could also spend all the money I have on equipment and years to learn how to use it.

Sincerely,

The photographer

kdog

There's really not enough information here to say. We have no idea what sort of arrangement you have with the marching band. We don't know who wrote the letter. We don't know what your watermark looks like. We don't know if the marching band is happy with your watermark. We don't know your own motivation for shooting. Most people who are in the business of selling spec photos either post proofs that are too small to be usable and/or plaster a watermark across the center of the photo so it can't be used. If that's what you're doing, then the pictures are useless to anyone as is, and this becomes simply an advertising outlet for you. Maybe that's not what the band expects or wants. I'm not saying that's what you're doing mind you. But without knowing the ENTIRE story, it's really impossible to say.

I often shoot events for gratis that my kids are involved in (orchestra, gymanastics, etc). In those cases, I watermark with a small identifier at the bottom of the photo and I give them away for free. My money, my equipment, my gas, my time. It's a gift that I'm prepared to give or I don't do it. But I wouldn't do it without the watermark. If nothing else, I deserve to get credit for my work.

Just curious, have you actually made any sales of band pictures in the past? That's typically a model that doesn't work. People look, but never buy. If that's the case then perhaps the band isn't getting free usable photos and you're not getting any sales. Nobody is getting nothin', which would be a waste. Better to put a small unobtrusive identifying watermark on your photos and let people have them for free which gets your name out there. Then it's a win win.

Sam

kdog wrote: »

There's really not enough information here to say. We have no idea what sort of arrangement you have with the marching band. We don't know who wrote the letter. We don't know what your watermark looks like. We don't know if the marching band is happy with your watermark. We don't know your own motivation for shooting. Most people who are in the business of selling spec photos either post proofs that are too small to be usable and/or plaster a watermark across the center of the photo so it can't be used. If that's what you're doing, then the pictures are useless to anyone as is, and this becomes simply an advertising outlet for you. Maybe that's not what the band expects or wants. I'm not saying that's what you're doing mind you. But without knowing the ENTIRE story, it's really impossible to say.

I often shoot events for gratis that my kids are involved in (orchestra, gymanastics, etc). In those cases, I watermark with a small identifier at the bottom of the photo and I give them away for free. My money, my equipment, my gas, my time. It's a gift that I'm prepared to give or I don't do it. But I wouldn't do it without the watermark. If nothing else, I deserve to get credit for my work.

Just curious, have you actually made any sales of band pictures in the past? That's typically a model that doesn't work. People look, but never buy. If that's the case then perhaps the band isn't getting free usable photos and you're not getting any sales. Nobody is getting nothin', which would be a waste. Better to put a small unobtrusive identifying watermark on your photos and let people have them for free which gets your name out there. Then it's a win win.

OH........darn...logic!

Sam

Angelo

Sam wrote: »

OH........darn...logic!

Sam

jh4wvu

Glort wrote: »

Exactly what I was thinking. Do you even get near covering your fuel or transport expenses much king round with these gigs?
The fact you are doing onsite sales makes me think the most likley answer is your not even close.
If that is indeed the case, why bother in the first place? If you want to make moneyget a job at the local 7/11 or something because you are gauranteed a lot better income there than you are trying to sell sports pics on spec online.

This is not my primary job. This is a definitely more of a passion job but I shouldn't be expected to just give away my work for free. Do I spend more time then I get paid...sometimes...but again I shouldn't have to just give in to people that think it should be free.

Yes, I am making money...this is my 16th year working with the band as a staff member. I am contracted (not an employee of the University) to manage their web site. The photography part is extra and the deal was that I would be allowed to sell the photos (plus I retain copyright since they are not paying me with state money) plus they couldn't afford to pay me what I wanted. In exchange for the rights to sell I allow them to use the photos for promotional needs.

My primary target are the parents of the of the members and it seems to be working. The photos are posted online. Parents/fans are aware of the photo site and links are posted on our Facebook pages and web site. And yes, other University marching bands are using a similar model.

Thanks again for the various opinions.

Chris

johng

It appears as though the person writing the letter believes the University is trying to make money off the photos. That is driving their angst. With the amount of money parents pay for their children to go to college and be involved in non-scholarship activities as intensive as band, I can see why they may feel the University trying to make a couple bucks off photos is over the top. However, back to Kdog's comment - I would ask the same thing - how is that business model working for you? In the long run, you'll do better moving to a pre-paid model and displaying small images on facebook for free. I never found a team or school where someone was unwilling to pay up front yet they WERE willing to buy a lot of product on the back end. Usually, if there were no takers for pre-pay there were very few takers to buy images after.

ian408

johng wrote: »

It appears as though the person writing the letter believes the University is trying to make money off the photos. That is driving their angst. With the amount of money parents pay for their children to go to college and be involved in non-scholarship activities as intensive as band, I can see why they may feel the University trying to make a couple bucks off photos is over the top. However, back to Kdog's comment - I would ask the same thing - how is that business model working for you? In the long run, you'll do better moving to a pre-paid model and displaying small images on facebook for free. I never found a team or school where someone was unwilling to pay up front yet they WERE willing to buy a lot of product on the back end. Usually, if there were no takers for pre-pay there were very few takers to buy images after.

^^ This.