Differences between Nikon and Canon bodies ergos

robscomputer

I've been reading about Nikon gear recently and wonder just what is different from the standard Nikon design to the standard Canon design for bodies. From what I seen personally, Nikon cameras typically have more controls placed on the camera for funcations like metering or frame advance. From Canon cameras I seen they typically have menu driven, less physical buttons or levers but funcations are set in the menu system.

I've only shot with a Nikon F5 but compared to my Canon camera I did like the easy access to the funcation, compared to the menu style.

Is there any other differences?

Thanks,
Rob

kdog

I'm no expert, but a casual comparison of similar Nikon and Canon cameras does not seem to support your contention that Canon doesn't make its features readily accessable by buttons.

Nikon D70



Canon 20D


Here's what I see.

Canon 13 buttons, 4 thumbwheels, 1 joystick, 1 on/off switch, shutter btn
Nikon 12 buttons, 2 thumbwheels, 1 joystick, 1 on/off switch, shutter btn

This isn't meant to be an exact comparison of course. There are other buttons on both cameras that can't be seen. Plus I may have missed a button or two. But still, it appears that if anything, the Canon has more controls.

Are there any specific features that you want to compare? I know the 20D pretty well and would be happy to engage in a feature by feature comparison if you want to get down and dirty.

robscomputer

I agree, I find the D70 and 20D similar to each other in terms of using button and locating their funcations in menus. For the professional cameras I have see more of a difference between the two manufactures. Take for example the two cameras.

Canon 1DmkII.

http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/canoneos1dmkii/page3.asp

Nikon D2X.

http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/nikond2x/page3.asp

From the two cameras I noticed the Canon has a very simple design, functional with a least amount of buttons/levers. The Nikon uses a switch on top of the prisme for the metering, another the focusing (not sure?), and another for the focusing of the lens (not sure?).

Not saying either is better off than the other but I was just thinking how I'm used to adjusting my metering looking at the LCD menu, while on the Nikon (some not all) are driven by a switch.

As a side note, I personally love the big dial wheel on the back of Canons. I'm not a fan of the small thumb wheel on the Nikon.

Rob

howard

Can't comment on Nikon but I use a Canon 20D and just about the only time I need to use the menu is to Select RAW etc, reformat the card or access the custom functions. In manual mode there are two wheels so you can adjust settings without taking your eye from the viewfinder. I'm in love with the thumb wheel for dialing in +/- EV. Even ISO can be changed without resorting to menus.

TOF guy

Actually your question does not give enough details as there are a few significant differences between the D70 and the D200 in ergonomics, but the D200 and D2X are very close. Which Nikon camera do you have in mind ?

* Every * single setting that you may need to adjust frequently is available at the push of a button or a lever etc. on the D200. There are some omissions on the D70 like going from AF-S to AF-C (different AF modes).

As for the 20D, I've had the chance to hold one and unlike many other people my impression was not "how much better one is compared to the other" but rather "how similar they are, and when will these Japenese companies stop from copying one each other ?". It's only getting worse, though: if I remember well, the major difference that I found was as follow. To change white balance (say) on the D70, I push and hold a button down while rotating a wheel. On the 20D, you push a button but don't hold it down, use a wheel to change WB setting, push the button again to validate the new setting (20D users please correct me if needed, it's been a while since I've done this). Now the D200 allows the user to customize the camera and choose between the D70 way - the traditional Nikon way - or the 20D way - which I assume is shared by all Canon dSLRs.

Thierry

Matthew Saville

kdog wrote:

Here's what I see.

Canon 13 buttons, 4 thumbwheels, 1 joystick, 1 on/off switch, shutter btn
Nikon 12 buttons, 2 thumbwheels, 1 joystick, 1 on/off switch, shutter btn

This isn't meant to be an exact comparison of course. There are other buttons on both cameras that can't be seen. Plus I may have missed a button or two. But still, it appears that if anything, the Canon has more controls.

Are there any specific features that you want to compare? I know the 20D pretty well and would be happy to engage in a feature by feature comparison if you want to get down and dirty.

For the record:

1.) That last Nikon "thumbwheel" is in the very front, facing forward. And, the 4th "thumbwheel" on the Canon is just he diopter correction thingy, which you set once and then leave alone (heck, glue in place if your vision isn't going anywhere) ...So in that aspect it should be 3 and 3 dials.

2.) The Nikon has 14 buttons, you just can't see the flash popup button or the DOF preview button. I'm assuming you counted an un-seen button on the Canon, but unless there's one you forgot about, (DOF preview or flash?) ...the Nikon ends up having more. Not counting the two 2-botton combo buttons that format the memory card (two buttons with the red "CF" next to them) and "re-boot" the camera. (two buttons with green dot next to them. I forget if the 20D has these options but I don't remember them. I never use the "re-boot" button combo, but constantly use the format buttons. Oh and of course all SLR cameras have a lens-release button, but I think we both left that out.

Finally, here's just a list of what the D70 can control via one button and dial-turning:

Image quality, WB, ISO, metering mode, (matrix/center/spot) drive mode, (single/continuous/timer/remote) bracketing, EV compensation and flash compensation. And AF point selection is direct of course on the "joypad" as I've dubbed it, but the 20D can be set up that way too with it's smaller joystick. I don't know if the 20D can control all these, though I think it CAN control the AF modes directly which the D70 can't. Your input?

On a little side note however, recently I actually decided I'd be just fine with going "back" to the old ways of my N65, or the D50 which is very similar, since my D70 may have passed away. A camera is just a tool, and for landscape / macro, I really don't need any speedy control at all. Just give me manual apeture and shutter speed, decent matrix metering and RAW, and I'm fine. So, take this as a disclaimer everyone. It's not a matter of how good your camera is, in some situations. Maybe in sports or a wedding I'd prefer the advanced controls of a higher camera, but I'll never forget "my roots" and start saying you MUST have certain controls otherwise your camera is worthless. That's just not true, a camera is just a tool and even with the crudest tools you can take the best of pictures with the right talent.


Now, on to what are to me the biggest difference between Canon and Nikon ergonomics:

AF point selection. There are two types of AF point selection on cameras: either you hold a button and then turn a dial to "scroll through" all the AF points or AF point groups etc, OR you directly "move the AF point around" with the joypad.

My Nikon N65 has the former method of selection, and I dislike it to the uttermost. My D70 has the latter method, and it is intuitive beyond measure. To the best of my knowledge, Canon has only recently begun to use "direct AF point selection" in bodies like the 20D, where they added a tiny little laptop mouse sized joypad above the wheel. But with the diamond array of AF points, this is somewhat difficult to master, and VERY difficult for a big-hands oaf like me who on top of not being too dextrous also sometimes shoots in cold, cold weather where one's digits become even less cooperative. I have also held the 1Ds and it's FORTY-SOME AF points appear to be selected by the "hold a button and scroll" method, which I find incredibly strange and I hope this is not true. The giant wheel is appealing for other things like flying through menus, but it's definitely NOT of greater use as far as AF point selection goes. I prefer Nikon's giant joypad by far. The smaller Nikon rear command dial works just fine and is VERY much less prone to getting bumped. The Nikon joypad can get bumped too, and BOTH the Canon and Nikon have "lock" mechanisms for these identified controls, but by locking the Canon wheel from controling apeture, you greatly constrict yourself in my opinion.

Although, anyone can easily get used to using either control, and can just as easily get used to quickly flippping on/off a control lock mechanism.

This is my largest quibble with the Canon ergonomics. Second largest is the wild idea of holding TWO buttons and turning a dial, to avoid accidentally changing a setting. (On the 1 series pro bodies) I've NEVER been able to accidentally bump ONE button and turn a dial at the same time, so holding two buttons is a little over-the-top to me. And trust me, I'm the absolute, un-challenged king of bumping my camera around. (Lamentably, and of course ever-attempting to change my ways.) The speed with which I can change ALL main settings, and the confidence I have that they won't get bumped, this is a big part of what sells me on the Nikon system.

Lastly, I'm oldschool when it comes to mirror lock up. I was first introduced to MLU on hasselblads, and for those not knowing the ways of a 500c 6x6cm, the MLU is simply a button you press to directly bring up the mirror. The closest thing to this, to the best of my knowledge, is with the Nikon system, where MLU is still it's own setting, (or custom button) and you press the shutter once to lock up the mirror and then press again to open the shutter. If I am correct, pretty much every Canon body puts MLU in a menu on the LCD.

Oh, and I'm also really glad that I only have to flip one switch to change from AF to MF on non-AFS / HSM lenses. Canon may have this as the way their own EF lenses work, but try and put a sigma non-HSM lens on your camera and ouch, TWO motions required to change from AF to MF. Of course, I am a big fan of SWM / HSM and the AF-ON button, in which case you have 100% AF and 100% MF at your disposal, un-coupled from the shutter release. This is a sweet, sweet setup that even the D50 and the 350D can do with true USM, AFS, or HSM lenses, and I highly reccomend that everyone give it a week's try to see if they don't get permanently attached to it. Once you see the beauty of this control, there's no going back.

Cheers, everyone! And remember, the worlds greatest pros shoot with your and my cameras, so ergonomics is ALWAYS a very subjective matter, what works for me may not work for you, what I hate may be what you love, and vice versa etc. etc.

Take care,
-Matt-

cabbey

Matthew Saville wrote:

AF point selection. There are two types of AF point selection on cameras: either you hold a button and then turn a dial to "scroll through" all the AF points or AF point groups etc, OR you directly "move the AF point around" with the joypad.

My Nikon N65 has the former method of selection, and I dislike it to the uttermost. My D70 has the latter method, and it is intuitive beyond measure. To the best of my knowledge, Canon has only recently begun to use "direct AF point selection" in bodies like the 20D, where they added a tiny little laptop mouse sized joypad above the wheel. But with the diamond array of AF points, this is somewhat difficult to master, and VERY difficult for a big-hands oaf like me who on top of not being too dextrous also sometimes shoots in cold, cold weather where one's digits become even less cooperative. I have also held the 1Ds and it's FORTY-SOME AF points appear to be selected by the "hold a button and scroll" method, which I find incredibly strange and I hope this is not true. The giant wheel is appealing for other things like flying through menus, but it's definitely NOT of greater use as far as AF point selection goes. I prefer Nikon's giant joypad by far. The smaller Nikon rear command dial works just fine and is VERY much less prone to getting bumped.

The current generation of Canon AF select logic seems to allow both. The process to change an AF point is as follows on the 20D, and I think on the 1Ds as well, is as follows:

1. push the AF point select control button.
2. steer directly to the AF point you want either with the joystick, OR by spinning the either selection wheels through them all sequentially, even if the wheel is disabled.
3. push the AF point select control button, OR half-depress the shutter to confirm change.

You can watch the process either on the *top* LCD display, or in the view finder. (Why anyone would use the LCD display for this, I fail to appreciate.) There is also a custom funciton adjustment that allows you to tailor how this works, what I describe above is the "normal" factory setting. There is also a couple of options that can be assigned to the lens' auto stop button that impact AF point selection somehow... which I don't grok. They seem to be going for ultimate flexibility.

The Nikon joypad can get bumped too, and BOTH the Canon and Nikon have "lock" mechanisms for these identified controls, but by locking the Canon wheel from controling apeture, you greatly constrict yourself in my opinion.

Although, anyone can easily get used to using either control, and can just as easily get used to quickly flippping on/off a control lock mechanism.

The only "lock" mechanism I can think of for the Canon's is the one built into the power switch... it has three positions: "OFF", "Sorta On, but you can't use the wheel 80% of the time", and "On." Which are labeled as "OFF", "ON", and ",--" respectively. Personally, I've given up on the middle setting, as you say, it's too easy to get into the habit of toggling it on and off, and what's worse, it's too easy to switch the camera OFF after toggling into that mode to change some setting. But the biggest crime in that lock, is the inconsistency of when it matters, and when it doesn't. (see above with AF selection points.) Thankfully the 20D boots in almost no time at all.

This is my largest quibble with the Canon ergonomics. Second largest is the wild idea of holding TWO buttons and turning a dial, to avoid accidentally changing a setting. (On the 1 series pro bodies) I've NEVER been able to accidentally bump ONE button and turn a dial at the same time, so holding two buttons is a little over-the-top to me. And trust me, I'm the absolute, un-challenged king of bumping my camera around. (Lamentably, and of course ever-attempting to change my ways.) The speed with which I can change ALL main settings, and the confidence I have that they won't get bumped, this is a big part of what sells me on the Nikon system.

What function did they protect with two buttons and the wheel??? That's absurd!

Lastly, I'm oldschool when it comes to mirror lock up. I was first introduced to MLU on hasselblads, and for those not knowing the ways of a 500c 6x6cm, the MLU is simply a button you press to directly bring up the mirror. The closest thing to this, to the best of my knowledge, is with the Nikon system, where MLU is still it's own setting, (or custom button) and you press the shutter once to lock up the mirror and then press again to open the shutter. If I am correct, pretty much every Canon body puts MLU in a menu on the LCD.

Nope, Canon has had the behaviour you describe as the Nikon's for ages... my 20D behaves that way, I'm fairly certain even the old digital rebel behaves that way with a recent firmware.... only reason to go into the menus is to enabled/disable MLU mode. Once it's set, click to lock up, click to shoot. There is a menu option that's similar... for sensor cleaning, but you can't shoot in that mode. The only objection I have to the Canon MLU mode implementation, is that you have to re-lock up the mirror for every shot. I'd really like to be able to do: click to lockup, click to expose, click to expose, click to expose, push something else to unlock or wait for timeout. Trying the obvious, putting it into continuous shot mode, just confuses it.

Oh, and I'm also really glad that I only have to flip one switch to change from AF to MF on non-AFS / HSM lenses. Canon may have this as the way their own EF lenses work, but try and put a sigma non-HSM lens on your camera and ouch, TWO motions required to change from AF to MF. Of course, I am a big fan of SWM / HSM and the AF-ON button, in which case you have 100% AF and 100% MF at your disposal, un-coupled from the shutter release. This is a sweet, sweet setup that even the D50 and the 350D can do with true USM, AFS, or HSM lenses, and I highly reccomend that everyone give it a week's try to see if they don't get permanently attached to it. Once you see the beauty of this control, there's no going back.

AMEN. I've been playing with having focus disassociated from shutter release for a while now on my 20D, and for some uses I absolutely love the ability. At other times however, it just irritates me... mostly when I'm working with a remote release and in MLU mode.

Cheers, everyone! And remember, the worlds greatest pros shoot with your and my cameras, so ergonomics is ALWAYS a very subjective matter, what works for me may not work for you, what I hate may be what you love, and vice versa etc. etc.

In the words of an author I've been reading lately, "That last paragraph is so important, I'm going to make you read it again."

And remember, the worlds greatest pros shoot with your and my cameras, so ergonomics is ALWAYS a very subjective matter, what works for me may not work for you, what I hate may be what you love, and vice versa etc. etc.

Couldn't agree with you more on that.

cabbey

TOF guy wrote:

if I remember well, the major difference that I found was as follow. To change white balance (say) on the D70, I push and hold a button down while rotating a wheel. On the 20D, you push a button but don't hold it down, use a wheel to change WB setting, push the button again to validate the new setting (20D users please correct me if needed, it's been a while since I've done this).

Spot on Thierry. That's the MO for just about all functions on the 20D... push a button to change something, use a dial to adjust it, push the button or the shutter to accept it. And a number of the most commonly adjusted functions are all double duty buttons... so AF and WB are the same button to enter the mode, then different dials to adjust. Ditto drive/iso and metering mode/flash exposure compensation.

kdog

Thanks for the detailed reply, Mathew.

Cabbey, Thierry, and Howard have already addressed most of your points, so no need to repeat them.

Regarding the number of buttons, it looks like I probably added the joystick as a button. It does function as a button, although to be fair, I should have added the Nikon joypad as a button, assuming it has one. The Canon also has the DOF and flash buttons on the front of the camera (I had originally said both cameras had buttons out of view). So the only extra controls the Nikon has are the reboot and format buttons. Canon doesn't have or need a reboot button, probably because power-up is instant. So the sole direct function that the Nikon appears to have that the Canon doesn't have is the format button. Now, I think you oversold your point a tiny bit when you said you use the format button "constantly". It's not a shooting control, so I'm perfectly happy with it being a menu button. Other than that, the score seems to be dead even. My point was not to say that Canon was better, but to point out that it's not true that it has its functions burried away in menus. I think we both agree on that.

As Thierry pointed out, it's remarkable how similar the two cameras actually are. My neighbor has a D70, and I was able to pick it up and start using it almost instantly. I think it's fair to say any differences between the two are just nits. When people say that "hate the ergonomics" of either brand, I expect that they're either not comparing comparable models, or are very sensitive.

Cheers,
-joel

cabbey

kdog wrote:

When people say that "hate the ergonomics" of either brand, I expect that they're either not comparing comparable models, or are very sensitive.

Or they're refering to "non-control ergonomics", like the feel of the grip, the balance, the position of the view finder, the depth of the eyepiece, etc. That's where I find the most difference these days.