Printing Photos

Bkodger · November 25, 2014

Hi. I'm not sure if this is the correct forum or not. I am considering taking another step in my photography and upgrading my account to allow purchases from online. I currently do small side work and wanting to have that option.

I have read through a lot, and seen that when purchasing prints there are 4 businesses that do the prints. However, I have a Canon Pro-100 and have been doing prints for my other shoots in house and been happy with the quality (and customers were as well). Is there a way to take orders online that I would give me the option of still doing the prints, while giving the option of other products to the customer. Things like the wraps, mouse pad, etc?

Thank you for your help.

Glort · November 26, 2014

I think you need to go back a step and put the horse before the cart.

The question is what and how much are you going to sell and is it worth offering pics online?
I looked at your site and I say a resounding NO. It's extremely hard to sell online, has been for years and while it's ok as a backup for onsite sales ( for some, didn't work for me at all) the work you are doing is stuff most people have given up on.

Cars, million people with their own cameras or cameras that make telephone calls that can do the same thing. You don't appear to be getting anything they can't with access, angles etc. Sports, the same, You don't appear to have any glass that would alloy you to get in closer or isolate the BG than a parent with a kit lens would.
Landscapes, Million shooters out there all trying to do it. Not trying to rain on your parade, I'll just dash your hopes with a dose of reality before you get them too high and spend money on what isn't going to pay off for you or anyone else doing the same thing.

Just to answer the question though. I wouldn't go with any preset company, I'd do my own site. Domains and hosting are going to cost you less than a prefab site and there is cheap/ free software out there that does a bloody good job and has carts built in. You can customise it to suit yourself and do your own fulfilment.
That's what I did and printed myself as well.

I have 14 or 16 ( can't remember) printers and do all my own sports/ event printing and have for years. I had up to 12 printers on their own print server running flat out and a person kept busy just feeding the things with fresh paper and taking the finished prints away.
Don't let anyone tell you inkers are no good or not proper quality or anything else because that is opinion not fact.

With your own site you can add in whatever products you want and price them accordingly. There a a lot of programs around that do what you want.
I use Jalbum and have done for years. It's been ultra reliable, straightforward and does the job I want. You could start looking at that and see what else is going from there.

I'd strongly suggest you look at this very hard though because I really don't think you are going to make many sales at all Online is a damn tough neigh impossible business these days and even only remotely viable if you can get shots no one else can basicaly and they have to buy from you. Car shows, landscapes and action sports are not those markets.

Bkodger · November 26, 2014

wow...well you are right I may not have more then enough gear to do what I want and need, but I do love photography and until recently have only done it as a hobby. So my site may not be set up like a professional for selling, but it's because I am not a professional. As I said, I do not have tons of equipment and a ton of different glass, but I do shoot with a 70-200 f/2.8 and that does just fine for the youth sports I've been taking on recently. They are not huge fields so, although a 300 mm prime or other nice glass would be great, I'm still getting shots that parents like. I also design some different layouts with the portraits and sports shots I do, and have had interest in easier ways to place orders for these setups. That is, in fact, the only reason I decided to look into this and why I asked the original question of if it's possible to print these out of home. I do live in a small town, and I do this on the side for fun. But with some interest in easier ways to order, and place orders after original orders, I was simply looking to see if that was an option.

On a side note, I do appreciate your honesty to an extent of I'm not good enough to do anything with it. But, it's fun for me, I enjoy doing it and learning about it, and it's even better if I can make a little money from it. That's all.

Glort · November 27, 2014

I think you are missing my point, entirely.

It's not about your gear or if you are "good enough". Its about the fact that at least someone on any sports team has a camera probably the equal of what you are using and they are happy to pass shots on to other parents for nothing. That price tag goes a LONG way in getting them to over look any aspects in which your pics which would cost them are better than the freebies.

Have a look through this forum. There are people a hell of a lot better than you or I whom have given this away. It's a very hard slog. I had an onsite event setup that was the biggest in Oz and I couldn't make it give me a worthwhile return and I'll blow my own trumpet and say I think I'm smarter then the average bear when it comes to marketing and promo but again, there are smarter bears than I that have got out of it.

If you have a kid(s) and are going to the games anyway, maybe you'll make popcorn money here and there. If not, you won't pay for gas money. Regardless of how good you are.
As for the car shows and landscapes, You are picking another pair of almost impossible markets.

If you set something up where they wheeled the car through a portable studio setup and you spent a couple of minutes on some setup shots and then they drove them through to a show, you MIGHT make something out of it. Of course you'd probably have a minimum 10 K investment and have to do a miracle job on the organisers to co operate, but it would be something different that the owners or other shooters couldn't get and that would be the willer for you, even if you had a compact camera set up and took 3 shots from different angles. It would not be about your photography, it would be presenting a unique image.

And that's where you are double behind the 8 ball with the sports. You can't present a Unique image.
There was a guy here that gave it away this year that was on par with any magazine shooter. His work was beyond excellent. His marketing strategies were also highly innovative and if there was a way to make money in this, he would have been the one to do it.

He gave it away cause it got old working for $2 and hour. Maybe.

So don't take this personaly, it's well out of your controll and has been for years. Maybe You should start a thread asking who does on spec sales off the net and what sort of returns they get?
You are going to find very few responses from people doing what you are contemplating and zero that make enough to cover costs.

If you are doing something where you are the " Official Shooter and other people are not allowed to take pics or they can't do what you do because they are seated too far away or don't have the angles etc, may be a different story but not for outdoor sports where people can go where they like basicaly.

The simple thing for you to think about is all the experienced people who knew what they were doing and built up connections, contacts and strategies have all got out of it. You are green and trying to do what they couldn't manage.
You will need to be the smartest shooter that ever lived to pull that off or maybe smart enough to look at some other market where you would have a chance of recovering your website costs let alone anything else.

IF you are doing it for fun, keep it fun and forget about selling anything. Give your pics away and at least enjoy the satisfaction of that.
If you put them online, watermarked etc or not, You'll will certainly be giving them away no question.

Sam · November 27, 2014

Glort wrote: »

I think you need to go back a step and put the horse before the cart.

The question is what and how much are you going to sell and is it worth offering pics online?
I looked at your site and I say a resounding NO. It's extremely hard to sell online, has been for years and while it's ok as a backup for onsite sales ( for some, didn't work for me at all) the work you are doing is stuff most people have given up on.

Cars, million people with their own cameras or cameras that make telephone calls that can do the same thing. You don't appear to be getting anything they can't with access, angles etc. Sports, the same, You don't appear to have any glass that would alloy you to get in closer or isolate the BG than a parent with a kit lens would.
Landscapes, Million shooters out there all trying to do it. Not trying to rain on your parade, I'll just dash your hopes with a dose of reality before you get them too high and spend money on what isn't going to pay off for you or anyone else doing the same thing.

Just to answer the question though. I wouldn't go with any preset company, I'd do my own site. Domains and hosting are going to cost you less than a prefab site and there is cheap/ free software out there that does a bloody good job and has carts built in. You can customise it to suit yourself and do your own fulfilment.
That's what I did and printed myself as well.

I have 14 or 16 ( can't remember) printers and do all my own sports/ event printing and have for years. I had up to 12 printers on their own print server running flat out and a person kept busy just feeding the things with fresh paper and taking the finished prints away.
Don't let anyone tell you inkers are no good or not proper quality or anything else because that is opinion not fact.

With your own site you can add in whatever products you want and price them accordingly. There a a lot of programs around that do what you want.
I use Jalbum and have done for years. It's been ultra reliable, straightforward and does the job I want. You could start looking at that and see what else is going from there.

I'd strongly suggest you look at this very hard though because I really don't think you are going to make many sales at all Online is a damn tough neigh impossible business these days and even only remotely viable if you can get shots no one else can basicaly and they have to buy from you. Car shows, landscapes and action sports are not those markets.

Dave,

I would love to see your Jalbum site you have had for many yearsand compare it to a Smugmug site.

Thanks,

Sam

Glort · November 27, 2014

Then You'll have to look at the Jalbum or some other site.
I haven't done the onsite sports event work for 3 years now so obviously I have no need for a site. I only had work online for about 6 months anyway because it was bringing the onsite business down so I added in more view stations, got rid of the online and went back to makeing mnoney.

Sam · November 27, 2014

Glort wrote: »

Then You'll have to look at the Jalbum or some other site.
I haven't done the onsite sports event work for 3 years now so obviously I have no need for a site. I only had work online for about 6 months anyway because it was bringing the onsite business down so I added in more view stations, got rid of the online and went back to makeing mnoney.

Dave,

This is entertaining:

Nov-26-2014 05:38 PM

I use Jalbum and have done for years. It's been ultra reliable, straightforward and does the job I want.

Nov-27-2014 01:54 PM

I only had work online for about 6 months

So.......Are we talking I use....years.....or only had for 6 mos.......years ago?

Inquiring minds want to know.

Sam

Glort · November 27, 2014

Sam wrote: »

Dave,

This is entertaining:

Nov-26-2014 05:38 PM
I use Jalbum and have done for years. It's been ultra reliable, straightforward and does the job I want.

Nov-27-2014 01:54 PM
I only had work online for about 6 months

So.......Are we talking I use....years.....or only had for 6 mos.......years ago?

Inquiring minds want to know.

Sam

Who are the inquiring minds?

For the people just wanting to take the piss. Jalbum is what I use on my view stations and have done for YEARS.
It can be used on an intranet or local network ( IE, Viewstations) as well as the internet. ( that's what you are looking at now)

IF you have it on a local network ( ie, Viewstations) You can upload the exact same galleries and saved layout to the web ( is that clearer?) so it can be seen online because the whole program runs on HTML. This makes it extremely fast even for old basic computers to run locally because a whole site with say 3K pics would only go about 30 Mb.

Very basic and straightforward stuff. You'd do a lot better to look at the Jalbum site to educate yourself rather than asking others basic things which you can teach yourself.

Sam · November 27, 2014

Glort wrote: »

Who are the inquiring minds?

For the people just wanting to take the piss. Jalbum is what I use on my view stations and have done for YEARS.
It can be used on an intranet or local network ( IE, Viewstations) as well as the internet. ( that's what you are looking at now)
IF you have it on a local network ( ie, Viewstations) You can upload the exact same galleries and saved layout to the web ( is that clearer?) so it can be seen online because the whole program runs on HTML. This makes it extremely fast even for old basic computers to run locally because a whole site with say 3K pics would only go about 30 Mb.

Very basic and straightforward stuff. You'd do a lot better to look at the Jalbum site to educate yourself rather than asking others basic things which you can teach yourself.

Well Dave,

That did explain the quoted discrepancies. Thanks!!

But alas I was hoping to see what an expert like you could do with this Jalbum thing and how it looked
compared to a typical Smugmug site.

cry:cry

It was but a minor curiosity for me and I understand if it's not possible for you.

Thanks for the effort though!!

Sam

johng · December 1, 2014

OP: Let me provide my standard advice: if you wish to take the next step and start earning money from your photography, I would NOT recommend a business model that relies upon online sales for your primary income. It just doesn't work. You need a business model that gets you paid up front. A website should be used for marketing/advertising and showcasing your work. It's OK to use it for follow-up orders as secondary income.

We can discuss the various reasons why the business model doesn't work well if you like.
I'm sure there are some people who make it work, but they certainly never reply to these threads.

Now, as to printing yourself vs. using a lab - unless you are printing on site for some type of event work I have never found it cost effective to use my own printer. What are you going to do when you need to make a larger print? Ink is expensive and has a nasty habit of drying up when you're not using the printer. When you calculate out the cost per print in terms of paper and ink it's higher than what it takes to have a lab printed.

Personally I recommend setting up a Bay photo account separate from Smugmug. You can order more products than they make available here at Smugmug and you get free shipping if you ship to your address - although you have to pay if you want to drop ship directly to your customer.

I honestly don't even have a photo printer anymore - even for personal use. It's just cheaper to use Bay for those as well. The only time I miss it is if I need something same day

Photogbiker · December 2, 2014

To the OP: I think a quick answer to your question is if using Smugmug Pro or Portfolio--no. It would be difficult for customers to order from your site, and then you make the decision to either print yourself or let the lab fulfill the order. If you go that way, just let the SM lab handle and collect your money.

If you are deadset on having the option to print you would probably find it easier to set up a website of your own design as Glort explains.

The real answer is exactly as Glort explains. If you get some parents to go on your site and buy some pics of a flag football game you will quickly jump into that 1% group that actually sold something! Your pictures are nice, but not "Sports Illustrated" caliber. As Glort says even a guy who was of that caliber found on line sales ranging from $0 to minimal.

In another thread I started this morning I relayed my experience shooting a bicycle race as the "official race photog". 12,000 plus photo views and 0 sales in 3 days since posting. Still early so I am curious to see what happens, but not hopeful. Don't count on anything more than "popcorn money" as stated.

Give it a shot through your Smugmug site and tell us what happens.

Bkodger · December 2, 2014

Thank you for the additional comments & suggestions.

Doing the online sales is not, or planning to be, the main source of earnings. I am just a small town shooter doing sports action shots, team photos, and starting to do some work in portraits. I also work with some of the photos creating different designs. I have had some parents ask if they are able to order online for original photos, extras, and the new designs that they see I have done and posted. I know I am not "sports illustrated" quality, but I'm also not looking for huge sales through the online purchase. Just an alternative way to allow those interested, to place buy the photos they are interested in. I have had a few people tell me they wanted something, and ask if online was possible. When i tell them no, and to contact me with the file names of the images they want to print, I haven't heard from them. Just figured if the online was possible, I might get those sales too.

Most of the images I sell, are from onsite sales. They will fill out the order forms and I print those at home on the pro-100. I do appreciate the comments and suggestions, and will look more into things.

mercphoto · December 2, 2014

I will make one comment on the whole "print myself" part of this. Smugmug will not give you the ability to "self-fulfill" items. Other vendors will though, such as Exposure Manager (www.exposuremanager.com). I used to use them years ago when I did motorsports. But I only would self-fulfill items I wanted to sell that they did not offer. But printing at home, I've never found that economical compared to any decent professional lab.

Sam · December 3, 2014

Bkodger wrote: »

Thank you for the additional comments & suggestions.

Doing the online sales is not, or planning to be, the main source of earnings. I am just a small town shooter doing sports action shots, team photos, and starting to do some work in portraits. I also work with some of the photos creating different designs. I have had some parents ask if they are able to order online for original photos, extras, and the new designs that they see I have done and posted. I know I am not "sports illustrated" quality, but I'm also not looking for huge sales through the online purchase. Just an alternative way to allow those interested, to place buy the photos they are interested in. I have had a few people tell me they wanted something, and ask if online was possible. When i tell them no, and to contact me with the file names of the images they want to print, I haven't heard from them. Just figured if the online was possible, I might get those sales too.

Most of the images I sell, are from onsite sales. They will fill out the order forms and I print those at home on the pro-100. I do appreciate the comments and suggestions, and will look more into things.

I have some additional thoughts after reading this and visiting your bike photos.

While the photos are not "Sports Illustrated" quality they are nice clean sharp event documentary photos. Nothing to be apologetic for. Great for parents to tuck away and / or scrapbook.

I do most of my own fine art printing on my ipf8300. I print myself for maximize quality, control and the multiple media choices available.

For event type images like your bike event I would not print these myself. I would let Smugmug do the printing. It's less expensive and easier, they do all the work with quarantined satisfaction.

Sam

johng · December 4, 2014

OP - think of online sales as being about 10% of your revenue. Look at the cost of a pro account and do the simple math to figure out if you'd break even.

Photogbiker · December 4, 2014

Sam wrote: »

I have some additional thoughts after reading this and visiting your bike photos.

While the photos are not "Sports Illustrated" quality they are nice clean sharp event documentary photos. Nothing to be apologetic for. Great for parents to tuck away and / or scrapbook.

I do most of my own fine art printing on my ipf8300. I print myself for maximize quality, control and the multiple media choices available.

For event type images like your bike event I would not print these myself. I would let Smugmug do the printing. It's less expensive and easier, they do all the work with quarantined satisfaction.

Sam

Sam--Good advice to OP that I would agree with, but if you saw "bike photos" you might have gone to my site and not the OP. He has cars, kids flag football, etc. Don't think your advice would change, just a minor clarification.....

Printing Photos

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