a wedding experience..
Have you guys had a wedding that just did not go well at all, the whole day?
Here is the story.
I've worked with the couple for their engagement shots, and they chose to go with my services for the wedding as well.
The plan was to shoot bridal party and portraits outside, in the area where the two have met.
I've driven out to that location, mapped out all of the spots, got permits from the management. I built out the whole shooting plan. 2.5 hours of shooting, resulting in a good 50 separate couple portraits, and ~30 shots of the wedding party.
Come the wedding day, everyone refuses to shoot outside. In their defense, it is fairly cold out.
EVERYTHING is done 1+ hours late; The plan was to start shooting at 10; we start shooting around 12.30.
Since I am stuck corralling people for the group shots, the basic 10 people party takes almost 2 hours to shoot, leaving me at maybe 30 minutes to shoot bride and groom.
Girls ran late, and did makeup somewhere else, while the hair stylists were waiting for them.
I get a wrong room # for the Groom, end up getting flashed by a naked, hairy and hungover gorilla of a man.. Who happens to be in that wrong room #. (16 vs 19.. great, eh?)
Hotel is far from scenic, partially under construction, although, staff was quite helpful.
Found a spot in a bar where i did a few "fun" shots of the bridal party, but had to stick with a super wide to fit the people in.
Did the general bridal party shots in the lobby.. again, had to do everything at around 24mm.
Groom's brother, kids involved - none paying attention, giving fingers to the camera, refusing to put their beer bottles away.
Proceed to the venue - right behind the Hotel - it is a theater. With plays going on. As a result, people coming and going out of the area the whole night.
The ceremony itself is held in a horridly lit area which hasn't been updated for a good 30 years (later google showed that it was in fact 32 years since renovations)
Officiant is a first timer, who got ordained specifically for the ceremony, (who keeps telling every single person that he went through Vietnam with groom's dad) loses his cool before the ceremony (and during), forgets half the stuff that needs to happen.
Family insists that the family shoot is done in the boring, bland and blah area.
Since theater is filled with patrons, can't get any of my bees set up, and stuck running around with SB900/bounce card the entire day/night.
During the party, my second shooter and I get accosted by a drunk guest, thus causing us to miss the bouquet and my narrowly missing the garter toss. (the man would jump in front of the camera and follow either me or my second shooter.)
I'm so brokenhearted about the resulting images it's not even funny. :cry
Here is the story.
I've worked with the couple for their engagement shots, and they chose to go with my services for the wedding as well.
The plan was to shoot bridal party and portraits outside, in the area where the two have met.
I've driven out to that location, mapped out all of the spots, got permits from the management. I built out the whole shooting plan. 2.5 hours of shooting, resulting in a good 50 separate couple portraits, and ~30 shots of the wedding party.
Come the wedding day, everyone refuses to shoot outside. In their defense, it is fairly cold out.
EVERYTHING is done 1+ hours late; The plan was to start shooting at 10; we start shooting around 12.30.
Since I am stuck corralling people for the group shots, the basic 10 people party takes almost 2 hours to shoot, leaving me at maybe 30 minutes to shoot bride and groom.
Girls ran late, and did makeup somewhere else, while the hair stylists were waiting for them.
I get a wrong room # for the Groom, end up getting flashed by a naked, hairy and hungover gorilla of a man.. Who happens to be in that wrong room #. (16 vs 19.. great, eh?)
Hotel is far from scenic, partially under construction, although, staff was quite helpful.
Found a spot in a bar where i did a few "fun" shots of the bridal party, but had to stick with a super wide to fit the people in.
Did the general bridal party shots in the lobby.. again, had to do everything at around 24mm.
Groom's brother, kids involved - none paying attention, giving fingers to the camera, refusing to put their beer bottles away.
Proceed to the venue - right behind the Hotel - it is a theater. With plays going on. As a result, people coming and going out of the area the whole night.
The ceremony itself is held in a horridly lit area which hasn't been updated for a good 30 years (later google showed that it was in fact 32 years since renovations)
Officiant is a first timer, who got ordained specifically for the ceremony, (who keeps telling every single person that he went through Vietnam with groom's dad) loses his cool before the ceremony (and during), forgets half the stuff that needs to happen.
Family insists that the family shoot is done in the boring, bland and blah area.
Since theater is filled with patrons, can't get any of my bees set up, and stuck running around with SB900/bounce card the entire day/night.
During the party, my second shooter and I get accosted by a drunk guest, thus causing us to miss the bouquet and my narrowly missing the garter toss. (the man would jump in front of the camera and follow either me or my second shooter.)
I'm so brokenhearted about the resulting images it's not even funny. :cry
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One thing stuck out at me though. This: "Since I am stuck corralling people for the group shots...".
I tell my clients that they need to have someone designated to collect people for the shots. I have in my contract that the clients will make the necessary people available for the shots, and I'm not responsible if they're not there.
That being said, I'm sure the clients will love whatever you got. They too know how the day went and can't be expecting much.
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Arseny, I looked at your weddings portfolio on your website and you are very talented! The fact that this inability to provide the shots you desired bothered you so much says a lot to me also! Mark this down to "uncontrollable circumstances" and know that the next time you will have gained experience from this one.
That said....please come back and give us an update after the couple receive their images.
Sam
That looks like a tough time.. Thanks for sharing.. I also find it really bad when photography turns into a torture... No creativity then
At this point, just deliver the images with whatever minimal editing you'd normally do. Do so politely but unceremoniously. Don't bother saying "OMG I'm super happy with the way things turned out!" but neither say "To be honest, I wish the day had gone better". Just deliver the images. If they bring up any dissatisfaction, tell them exactly what you've posted here, but politely, briefly, and sincerely. If you have to, walk them through the day without pointing fingers, but clearly explaining how things played out.
Personally, I'd call them up right away and, without saying that you're particularly dissatisfied with the wedding images, simply open the possibility of doing a re-shoot for just the bride and groom at least, simply citing the schedule delays and the rough weather, nothing else.
I've been shooting weddings for 11 years, and I've shot extremely high-end weddings for over $10K, and I've shot extremely low-budget weddings for under $1K. This kind of stuff happens from time to time. It has everything to do with the personalities and lifestyles of the people you're working with, NOT you. Sure, you might have learned a couple lessons, about stressing timelines and preparation beforehand, or insisting that clients appoint their own "wranglers" for the family photos, etc etc... But don't let that cause you to feel brokenhearted. It's their lifestyle, not yours.
=Matt=
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I suppose one of the big problems was that there was no wedding planner in the picture; Bride's friend did it (first time in her life), and some of the people in bridal party were so unhappy with the way she handled it that they did not want to talk or even be next to her.
Kdog, I do have the same clause in my contract (actually, I added it after you have mentioned it a long while back in one of the threads); but since things were getting desperate, I figured it was time to put the foot down.
Wayne, thank you for the kind words!
Sam, I shall report.
Matt, this is a great idea.
Perhaps, they would be willing to get the couples portraits done as a reshoot. I just need to find the time when I am available for that, too
Thank you very much!
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Yup, yet another revelation that causes me to say, again, you couldn't have done much at all to improve the outcome here.
I've shot tons of weddings without planners, and plenty with, and I have to say that this can be one of the biggest problems. Some people are just on the ball, they are super organized and the day goes off without a hitch, planner or no planner. Some folks are just naturally disorganized, late, and basically lazy / unmotivated in general. These weddings are always tough, but when there's no planner they become a complete disaster.
Another thing is "first timers" working on anything at all to do with the wedding. An officiant and a planner both having never done this before is a recipe for catastrophic failures in timing throughout the entire day; I'm not surprised at all that you didn't start shooting until 12:30 even though you had aimed for 10. And I wouldn't blame that on you one bit.
Anyways, now you know. Try to sniff out these clients ahead of time, and even if you can't stop chaos from ensuing, at least be sure to repeatedly warn the clients in writing and verbally about staying on schedule and having group photos organize THEMSELVES; that way when the clients are unhappy they will quickly see whose fault it was. Like I said, this is just how some folks' entire lifestyle is like, period, and there's not much you can do to change that.
Good luck with the re-shoot!
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Sometimes it's like herding cats to get bridal parties together. I've seen formal shoots after the ceremony degenerate into utter chaos, and others where the bridal party evaporates like morning mist as soon as the recessional music stops. A friend of mine once had the entire bridal party leap into a limo after leaving the church and make an hour-long stop at a liquor store to buy a few hundred bucks worth of booze. This, on the way to a reception where they had already paid a premium price for an unlimited open bar. Needless to say, most of them were half in the bag before they even arrived at the ceremony.
It sounds to me like you took all reasonable steps. If the couple are not completely satisfied with their wedding photos, they have only themselves to blame - which doesn't stop them from trying to blame you, of course. The only thing that jumped out at me was your pre-planning of the outdoor shooting location, and lack of a backup plan. One should always have a backup location picked out when planning an outdoor shoot, because *weather* often decides to screw you at the last moment. Heat, cold, wind, clouds, sun, and of course, the devil precipitation, can all ruin an outdoor location in seconds. Hell, even a perfect location with perfect weather and perfect bridal party can be ruined by pollen allergies. Or mosquitoes. Or the aroma of nearby fish ponds, landfills, or road paving.
As far as the schedule goes, I think I've been to maybe one or two weddings, like, ever, that actually started and ended on time. Most are at least ten minuted late from the get-go, and I've seen them as much as two hours delayed by fussy brides or groomsmen who were more interested in tequila shots or X-box than putting on their pants.
I did have a backup location, and did have permits to use it.
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After all was said and done, the images actually came out great. What I'm trying to say out of all of this is to just be positive about your images. You're a great shooter and I'm sure everything came out okay. Just edit and deliver as best as you can and I'm sure they bride and groom will be very happy with your work
In 30 years, I have NEVER had a " wedding planner" or anyone else organising people for me. Don't even know of anyone that has had one.
Here it's taken as granted you will have to organise the people yourself. It's simply the photographers job. I can't imagine saying there was no wedding planner, you'd be looked at funny and people would wonder WTF is a wedding planner?
I also can't imagine taking 2 hours just to shoot the bridal party. The majority of weddings I have shot in my time you are lucky to get any more than one hour to shoot everyone. Planning on 2.5 Hours would be seen as impractical and You'd simply loose a hell of a lot of jobs telling people you were going to take that long.
I always concentrate on the B&G and then do the bridal party. The B&G are the most important ones, it's their day and they are the ones paying me not the bridal party so they get priority.
I can always shoot the bridal party at the reception if need be but I want to use the prime shooting time to concentrate on the couple.
Very interesting how things are done and looked at differently in various parts of the world and what seems a terrible thing to some is just normal for others.
That's interesting because wedding planning and day-of-event coordination seems to be a pretty big business in Sydney. You may want to check it out.
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Glort, your accounts of the industry you work in often do seem to differ significantly from others, both elsewhere and in your own area. Keep that in mind. Personally I doubt if there is anywhere in the world where wedding planners aren't the status quo for at least high-end weddings, if not mid-range too.
That aside, keep in mind two things: 1.) Nobody here is saying that a wedding planner should know how to pose a couple for you, or even a bridal party. A wedding planner is really only supposed to coordinate the entire schedule of the day, and make sure things run smoothly. You're still the one who directs and poses the shots. Or, your assistant can help, if it's a huge group photo. 2.) A wedding planner isn't the best person to help with the list of family photos, either. The family themselves are the best people for that job. That's why I recommended it earlier in this discussion.
Even if it seems un-professional of me to ask my couples to handle family formal photos like this, I wouldn't have it any other way, and my couples always thank me for getting their "boring" obligatory photos done so rapidly.
If anybody hasn't tried this, they should. It can really reduce wedding day stress and energy consumption, while increasing the quality of the final product.
=Matt=
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Really?
And what do you base that assumption on Matt? I'm very curious to hear of your experience in my country let alone city/ area in the wedding industry.
Personally, how many weddings have you shot in Sydney and how long have you been working in this particular market? I'm very interested in your personal insights and experience here.
It's very clear you have a propensity to think everything is the way you believe it should be, but as confronting as it may seem, there is always the chance that without any first hand knowledge or experience in a particular area, things may be different to what you assume.
I'd be very interested to see some actual statistics on exactly what percentage of weddings In Sydney and Oz for that matter engage the services of an actual wedding planner and how I have been missing them all this time?
I don't think Glort said anything about the planner posing people but getting them organized for the shoot.
If it's a semi formal beach wedding I set up after the wedding and let the bride and groom herd all those they want pics with. I have no idea who is important to them.
For bigger, more formal weddings I ask them to appoint a family member for both sides to be the resource for me to get the important family and friends into the shoot.
The wedding planner can be a big key in keeping things on target. Problems arise when it is done by committee with friends of the bride who do not know what they are doing.
80 exhibitors, about 14 Shooters, 1 sort of wedding planner.
Realistically this " Planner" was in fact a florist that had a side line of table decorations and props like Candelabras, Chandeliers, chair coverings, red carpet rolls and the like and referred other businesses.
Their "Planning services" consisted of booking the people they are associated with only.
Notably, they did not refer any Churches or reception houses.
Not in anyway what I would consider a proper planner and clearly on interested in the Kickback from the people they refer.
They sure as hell wouldn't be running round on the day co coordinating services and making things run smoothly.
With this thread in mind and the rebuttal leveled, I asked several of the vendors there if they worked with planners and only one had a single reccolection of one of their clients using these people.
No, My experience is not atypical in any way despite what anyone that has never been involved in this market may "personally " think.
Clearly, it's exactly as my many years of experience in MY market lead me to believe.
I've shot very few weddings; only 13 of them so far. And this one was the first wedding to not have a planner..
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You got me, no I've never photographed a wedding outside the US.
However, Australia aside, nearly 100% of the weddings I photograph here are cultural weddings so I routinely interact with clients and wedding planners who visit and have experience with weddings in Asia and South Asia, the Middle East, and elsewhere. I do talk to them about this kind of stuff, because I am actually very curious about world cultures and it would be a dream to travel the world and document wedding traditions.
While I bet many markets are indeed "planner-less", I do stand by my original claim that in as many places as I've heard about, the high-end weddings do have some sort of planner. Couples don't just cook up half-million dollar weddings all by themselves, as far as I can tell.
The next time I bump into Jerry Ghionis at WPPI, I'll ask him if he works with planners a lot in OZ too. ;-)
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To a certain extent, this is just how Americans (and some others, but certainly not all) are. Inherently disorganized, lazy, and LATE.
I would love to work with clients whose weddings are small enough or organized enough to not require a wedding planner. But around here, if the bride tells me she's having a 600 guest Hindu wedding, and there's no wedding planner, I immediately sprout three new grey hairs on the spot.
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I think it varies greatly across the US, but my guess is that the primary deciding factor is overall budget.
I've personally never attended or shot a wedding that had a hired planner, but my experience is limited. I've attended dozens, but only shot 5 or 6 (as second shooter). Most of the weddings I've attended have been low-end to mid-range, though. I've never been to a truly high-end wedding, though I've seen a few from a distance in the more expensive hotel venues in Baltimore. At least one of those high-end weddings definitely had a hired planner - I saw her organizing things, and it was clear that she was not a guest but a vendor - and some of the high-end venues in the city advertize planners on staff. Lots of venues have advertizing materials for planners, though, so I know there's a market for them around here, or they'd all be out of business.
But yeah, I can certainly believe that there are whole cities where wedding planners are only retained by the highest-end couples, and everyone else plans it themselves or wings it.
Personally, I'd love to shoot, or at least attend, a wedding with a hired planner who could keep things on schedule and eliminate all of the confusion that seems inevitable with these affairs. The closest I've ever come was attending the wedding of one of my cousins who is an obsessive-compulsive control freak of the highest order, who planned everything down to the last detail - and it all went off without a hitch. I was floored - it was a beach wedding in North Carolina.
Good to see that someone can see outside their own tunnel visioned world and understand things may not be the same everywhere as in their area.
I too would love to shoot a wedding with a planner running round to see exactly WTF they do and how it would help me? What exactly do they do on the day? Tell everyone when to leave and heard them into the cars so they arrive at the next location on time?
I'm not sure what is classed as High end in this context but I have certainly done some I'd say were up there. Never seen a planner with those either but I also haven't done half million dollar weddings if that's the criteria for upmarket.
Planning the wedding is seen as half the fun by a lot of people. As far as keeping things on schedule and eliminating confusion, I have always seen that as a big part of my job. I'm with them all day and have spoken about times and travel and shooting allowances. They have only probably been married 2-3 Times, I have done a few more weddings than that so have a bit of a clue how they run and when we need to get to the next place in order for things to run smoothly and efficiently. I don't consider it at all hard but then again, I never considered using manual focus, manual film advance and manual metering camera's hard either where many today would tell you it was impossible to produce decent wedding coverages like that.
I let the clients know I will tell them when it's time to move on and if they choose not to, that's up to them. Very few times has my suggestions been ignored and when they have, that was usually when I was doing weddings for the well heeled.
600 Guests weddings here are a walk in the park with Italians, Greeks, Lebanese, Macedonians and others would consider them run of the mill, medium size weddings. They are far from uncommon and I have never found them particularly different to any other wedding. The rest of it is still just the B&G and bridal party.
I think the suggestion of using a planner would almost be offensive to these cultures.
Perhaps what was said about Americans is true because particularly with those cultures here, the couple involve a lot of family and friends to help and that is part of the excitement and even expectation.
But what would I know about the place I have lived my whole life and shot hundreds of wedding in?
People were sharing their experiences. I get going against the grain, but you're just being abrasive of late. come on, man.
As a side note, hundreds of weddings? How do you do that? teach me.
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I'm not sure if you purposely listed cultures mostly from the same area, but I will say that yes, the weddings I have done from those areas often do not have a planner, despite how big they are. I've done a handful of greek orthodox, coptic orthodox, and / or armenian weddings, and a statistically notable number of those didn't have planners.
Hindu weddings (here in America at least) on the other hand, have a planner 90% of the time, large or small. As do most of the other Asian cultures.
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Very nice job with the book! I think you did an excellent job putting it together, and I'm sure the couple will love it. Well done
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