Researching how photogs deal with money related questions?

wildviper

Hello fellow photogs,

In my day job I have been in finance field for over 15 years; specifically helping business owners / mom and pops/ regular folks working W2 and so on manage their money.

I am at the beginning stages of formulating a business around offering very specific advice to fellow photographers regarding questions about money.

Questions such as: What should I charge for a photoshoot? Should I hire a 2nd Shooter? Should I off-load the editing to another person or company?

These all have qualitative answers of course; however, I am more interested in answering these from a numbers perspective specifically for a particular photog so that it is highly relevant and actionable.

I would love to find out where you go today to get specific answers about money? I am not talking about CPAs or Financial Advisors or Investment advisors..many folks haven't hired them. If you have those, let me know your experience; since I work for one, I know their limitations and how they can complicate the answer.

orljustin

wildviper wrote: »

I am at the beginning stages of formulating a business around offering very specific advice to fellow photographers regarding questions about money.

How much are you offering to gain this advice that you are going to charge people for?

wildviper

orljustin wrote: »

How much are you offering to gain this advice that you are going to charge people for?

I am not sure I understand. Are you asking how much I would pay you for advice? Being that this is an internet forum where folks tend to help each other, I would say I have not budgeted for it.

Now you may ask why would I charge yet ask for free advice...well, its simple....what I am going to charge for can be had for free in forums such as these. However, as my experience here suggests, it takes a while before anyone will reply. And when they do reply, they may not be answering but trying to be smart alecs. So I charge for directly and quickly answering the question so one doesn't have to wait around. Price for convenience and specific advice without trying to be smart alecy (if such a word exists).

And if there is no market, I will realize that sooner than later.

Hope that helps.

Sam

Ah, I understand.

You want to charge clients for information but don't have the knowledge, or experience to teach or coach photographers with questions related to the financial and business aspects of photography.

So ya go online and ask people at random for FREE advice which you will then (still without and real knowledge or experience) regurgitate to unsuspecting souls and charge them money for it.

I thinks I understands.

Sam

wildviper

Sam wrote: »

Ah, I understand.

You want to charge clients for information but don't have the knowledge, or experience to teach or coach photographers with questions related to the financial and business aspects of photography.

So ya go online and ask people at random for FREE advice which you will then (still without and real knowledge or experience) regurgitate to unsuspecting souls and charge them money for it.

I thinks I understands.

Sam

Sam I think you have misunderstood me. I actually have over 15 years of experience in finance field helping small biz owners and regular w2 earners. I do not need to go to internet to find my answers. I have access to plenty of professionals if I do not know an answer.

I was referring to how others go on forums looking and waiting for answers and how I can help eliminate that for a fee. Is that such a bad idea? To make money for imparting valuable advice for which I DO have a ton of experience in?

Cygnus Studios

I personally get the logic that asking random strangers on the internet about how to run your business isn't always the best way to go about things, but also getting information from those not involved in the specifics is also not the best thing.

If someone is seeking accounting advice, they should seek out an accountant.
Same goes for lawyer, insurance and a host of other specific parts of running a business.

There is no set specific answer for what should I charge. There are simply too many variables for a one size fits all pricing model and that is before you get into all the different types of photography.

You stated that you are in finance, so why not advise people on that specific aspect instead of delving into areas that you are not as familiar with?

wildviper

Cygnus Studios wrote: »

If someone is seeking accounting advice, they should seek out an accountant.
Same goes for lawyer, insurance and a host of other specific parts of running a business.

There is no set specific answer for what should I charge. There are simply too many variables for a one size fits all pricing model and that is before you get into all the different types of photography.

You stated that you are in finance, so why not advise people on that specific aspect instead of delving into areas that you are not as familiar with?

I must have done a really bad job explaining exactly what I am capable of and determining if there is a market for it.

I am in finance and that is exactly the advice I want to offer to folks who are photographers. I understand both worlds from inside out. I figured this would put me in a unique situation whereby I can specifically advice a particular photog. I agree, everyone's situation is different and that is exactly where my expertise can shine. I can develop pricing models, for example, for a particular photog that is totally different than any other photog. I know numbers.

I am not trying to advice anyone for things I have no clue about. That would be silly and I sure as hell can't charge for that.

As for hiring accountants or financial advisors, my experience over 15 years is two fold:

• Most folks won't hire them
• More professionals will ask so many irrelevant questions that it becomes a chore and gets an answer that is not actionable.

Btw, the pros ask irrelevant questions mainly to protect themselves..I know how bad compliance is getting.

Cygnus Studios

wildviper wrote: »

I must have done a really bad job explaining exactly what I am capable of and determining if there is a market for it.

I am in finance and that is exactly the advice I want to offer to folks who are photographers. I understand both worlds from inside out. I figured this would put me in a unique situation whereby I can specifically advice a particular photog. I agree, everyone's situation is different and that is exactly where my expertise can shine. I can develop pricing models, for example, for a particular photog that is totally different than any other photog. I know numbers.

I am not trying to advice anyone for things I have no clue about. That would be silly and I sure as hell can't charge for that.

As for hiring accountants or financial advisors, my experience over 15 years is two fold:

• Most folks won't hire them
• More professionals will ask so many irrelevant questions that it becomes a chore and gets an answer that is not actionable.

Btw, the pros ask irrelevant questions mainly to protect themselves..I know how bad compliance is getting.

I'm sure there are many in different stages of their career that ask many questions when it comes to business, of that I have no doubt.

I admit that you've pique my curiosity though.

So how exactly would you come up with pricing models given that there are so many variables within each particular niche of photography? I've made a living with a camera for quite some time now and have never seen 2 photographers doing the same thing for the same price so I'm quite curious.

If I woke up tomorrow and decided to branch out into wedding photography, the prices here in the San Francisco area range from a couple hundred bucks to deep into five figures. In addition to all the various prices, there are even more packages offered. So I am not sure how anyone could simply suggest a cookie cutter pricing package that would be based on anything other than a pure shot in the dark.

What about things like business plans, contracts, releases, licenses, insurance, accounting and the endless list of other things that go into running a successful business that begins long before worrying about what they should charge for a shoot?

I'm not knocking your idea, just trying to wrap my head around the idea. We've used accountants and lawyers since opening the studio twenty four years ago and learned from industry pro's for the day to day operation questions, so I'm always a little surprised when those starting out ask random strangers on the internet.

Not that all internet advice is wrong or bad, but with so many legal and liability issues that get glossed over when discussing photography on a forum, I wouldn't want to base my business on it.

I'd hate to get audited and my only excuse is "BillyBob on X forum told me this was right", but that's just me.

wildviper

orljustin wrote: »

How much are you offering to gain this advice that you are going to charge people for?

Cygnus Studios wrote: »

I'm sure there are many in different stages of their career that ask many questions when it comes to business, of that I have no doubt.

I admit that you've pique my curiosity though.

So how exactly would you come up with pricing models given that there are so many variables within each particular niche of photography? I've made a living with a camera for quite some time now and have never seen 2 photographers doing the same thing for the same price so I'm quite curious.

If I woke up tomorrow and decided to branch out into wedding photography, the prices here in the San Francisco area range from a couple hundred bucks to deep into five figures. In addition to all the various prices, there are even more packages offered. So I am not sure how anyone could simply suggest a cookie cutter pricing package that would be based on anything other than a pure shot in the dark.

What about things like business plans, contracts, releases, licenses, insurance, accounting and the endless list of other things that go into running a successful business that begins long before worrying about what they should charge for a shoot?

I'm not knocking your idea, just trying to wrap my head around the idea. We've used accountants and lawyers since opening the studio twenty four years ago and learned from industry pro's for the day to day operation questions, so I'm always a little surprised when those starting out ask random strangers on the internet.

Not that all internet advice is wrong or bad, but with so many legal and liability issues that get glossed over when discussing photography on a forum, I wouldn't want to base my business on it.

I'd hate to get audited and my only excuse is "BillyBob on X forum told me this was right", but that's just me.

I am not saying that the answer to "what should I charge?" is easy. However, the mistake that I see folks make in all sorts of service business is working backwards to come to a price. They will start with what competitors are charging for similar service. While that is helpful in marketing yourself, that is actually a dangerous way to come up with your own price. As you already know, everyone has different cost structures.

The way I tell service business folks to start thinking of pricing is to start with their costs and add all those up. From there add in variable costs such as travel costs, number of staff hours for a particular shoot and so on. Figure out what your break-even is to even get out of bed, per se. Don't forget to add in your opportunity cost. This will then allow you to figure out how much profit you want to make and add all this together. If your competitor is charging $1,000 and you come in at $5,000...there maybe an underlying issue that you have to figure out. Perhaps the competitor is not pricing well, or you are asking for too much profit or your costs are too high or you are better off giving up the project entirely. I have done that many times if the client is unwilling to meet my price. I value my time even if that means I spend that time at home with my family.

As a general rule of thumb, 20% of your client base is producing 80% of your income. This means that 80% of the time you are wasting on unprofitable ventures. Focus on 20% and get rid of the losers.

What I would do as a service is help you figure all these out so that you know you are not better of working at Subway.

Btw, this is a simple question but complicated to answer. Another example of what I can help answer is, should I be saving in a SEP IRA or Roth IRA for retirement savings? Or should I get a D800 or spend $1K more to get a better camera?

Again, a lot of these have qualitative answers..I can't help there. But from a numbers perspective, I can help figure out and keep emotions out.

Cygnus Studios

That is a much better explanation. Now I am able to wrap my head around what you are thinking. From what I've seen participating on various forums over the years is that a lot of these basic questions come from photographers who are transitioning from "I can take pretty pictures" to "how do I make money from it."

Getting these newer photographers to develop a business plan, marketing plan, learn to factor in accounting procedures, or legal and liability issues is difficult at best. Consider how many people think that running a successful photography business is mostly about taking pretty pictures.

I believe that you are right in that many photographers could benefit from a knowledgeable source in gathering the needed information to develop the idea, but many people simply want answers that satisfy their desires more than a hard truth.

Learning how to determine your true costs is a difficult thing to learn in the beginning. Most don't consider gas, food, insurance, cable bill, marketing materials, costs of gear, depreciation and repair costs, contract fees, accounting software, taxes and everything else that goes into determining a budget that you need to manage a successful business. So I do see a need, I just don't know how you would go about educating those who are just beginning to explore the possibility of going from camera owner to business owner.

It is true that some people can simply buy a camera, take some pretty pictures and sell a few. That seems simple enough. What they don't consider (sometimes until it is too late) is all the potential pitfalls that can happen. Grabbing a sample contract off the internet seems quick and easy until you find out that you can't defend that contract in court. They never consider what happens if their memory card fails after shooting for a client and all the images are gone or what happens if their camera gets stolen after the shoot. What happens if someone gets hurt on the shoot. The costs of defending your copyright.

Then come the extra hard questions as they get more serious. Should they set up a LLC, C corp, S corp, single owner, and once they start hiring employees that can of worms will keep the best of them up at night. Just the tax implications and human resource laws give you an ulcer.

I hope that you keep up with your idea, it will be interesting to see how this could work.

mercphoto

This is actually a very good discussion, and I agree with Steve that its very easy to NOT understand all the true costs of running an actual business, not a "money making hobby". I keep trying to figure a way to get back into the game of automotive photography, start looking at all the true expenses, and then realizing nobody wants to hire me at that cost level because too many people do it for peanuts. Funny how those people don't stick with the gig for long though. :O

Will be watching this thread with interest.

Cygnus Studios

mercphoto wrote: »

This is actually a very good discussion, and I agree with Steve that its very easy to NOT understand all the true costs of running an actual business, not a "money making hobby". I keep trying to figure a way to get back into the game of automotive photography, start looking at all the true expenses, and then realizing nobody wants to hire me at that cost level because too many people do it for peanuts. Funny how those people don't stick with the gig for long though. :O

Will be watching this thread with interest.

Now that is another great part to being in the photography business that needs serious consideration. How much time do you invest worrying about what someone else is charging or do you go after higher end clients that aren't price shopping and how do you go about finding them?

Every month we get contacted by budding photographers who want to become a photographer and 99% of them think it has something to do with taking pictures.

Getting them to realize that 80% or more of your time is dealt with contract negotiations, figuring out what they want, when they want it, how they want it, how long they are going to use it, and everything else that goes into dealing with a client long before you ever unpack the camera, most simply give up on the idea.

This is all before you begin to actually deal with editors, publishers, art directors, models, make up artists, designers, grips, location permits, liability insurance, and the thousand other things that go into a shoot. The endless BS is enough to make most go cry in the corner of the room or worse.

Now I'm not saying that it isn't a great profession, but make sure that you own some stock in Advil and Rolaids, you'll certainly need lots of both.

Some parts of the photography business are easier and less stressful than others. Those particular jobs are also the ones with the most people trying to make a buck, so you'll have plenty of competition and part timers to deal with. So you have to pick your poison.

orljustin

"So I charge for directly and quickly answering the question so one doesn't have to wait around."

Me too. Let me know your budget.

"If your competitor is charging $1,000 and you come in at $5,000...there maybe an underlying issue that you have to figure out. Perhaps the competitor is not pricing well"

The competitor not pricing well is usually the issue in photography. Most of us know our costs, etc., so we know what we should be charging, but often, it just isn't possible. Why is why no photographer will pay you for advice. The cash just isn't there.

Cygnus Studios

orljustin wrote: »

Most of us know our costs, etc., so we know what we should be charging

If you visit enough photo forums you will see that many people are asking "what should I charge" so obviously there is a need for the information. Now whether someone is willing to pay someone for that information may be a different story.

People pay for tax advice, legal advice, medical advice and all sorts of other advice, so maybe there could be a market for it.

ChatKat

Many avenues
First you have to walk the talk.
And you have to gain the trust of your market and have a value proposition.
There are a zillion photographers out there coming from many other careers besides photography. I spent 35+ years in the world of finance. I have taught QuickBooks since version 1 came out in 1993. I run a full time photography studio.
Word of mouth is a beautiful way to find the answer.