"No professional cameras" WTF?

Red Bull · January 8, 2006

I'm not sure where to put this, so I'll post it here.

Ok here's the story. I went to a Gulls game (my city's hockey team) and I wanted to bring my new 70-200 f/4L.

I got to the gate, the guy checked my bag and said "thank you". Ok, so no problem with bringing cameras in, right? Obviously not....

About half way through the game, I walked to center ice to get some clear shots with no obstructions. (My season ticket seats are directly behind the goal, so there is plexiglass and nets in front of me) So walk around the concourse, found a good spot right around center ice and I stood there and took my camera out of my bag. (Canon 20D with 70-200 f/4L) All of a sudden, this security lady (I will refer to her as "goon") comes up to me. Here is the conversation between us:

Goon: Do you have a media pass?
Me: No, I didn't know I needed one.
Goon: Well that is a professional camera with detachable lens, you can't have that here.
Me: Why not?
Goon: House policy
Me: Well the man at the gate checked my bag and let me in with it.
Goon: What gate did you come in?
Me: Season ticket entrance
Goon: Hmmm, well you can't have that here, you will have to check it in with guest services and pick it up after the game.
Me:Can I just put it in my bag and go back to my seat? I don't want to leave it with anyone, I spent a lot of money on it. (Keep in mind I'm only 16 and I spent my own money on this equipment)
Goon: I understand but you can't even have it in here
Me: Well can I go get my dad?
Goon: Sure

So I walked to my seat and got my dad, she explained it to him and just said "We will just leave then." And so we left, and the goon followed us to the exit to make sure we left. (Because God forbid a camera with a telephoto lens stay in the arena)

The weird thing is, I always see people sitting in the handicapped seats with dSLR's and lenses just like mine, and I don't see any sort of media pass attached to them.

So my question is, what do you think about all this? What would you have done?I am going to email the arena about this policy. I don't get why I can't bring in a dSLR with interchangeable lenses, but people can bring their point and shoot cameras with "super-zooms" on them.

My other question is, is it possible to get a media pass? How would I get one? Can I get one at my age? (16)

ian408 · January 8, 2006

The short answer on the media pass is probably not. The reason being that
media passes are generally only given to those who are assigned to shoot
the game (team photog, news or other print media).

Most teams allow fans to shoot games. But also try to limit the overall length
of the lens so that your taking pictures doesn't disturb other fans. The other
(and perhaps real) reason is that they do not want you to sell the pictures.

I would add that just because the security guard let you in doesn't mean
cameras are allowed and the hard part is that the security "goon" is just
doing what she belives her job is.

Check the back of your tickets. Perhaps the policy is spelled out there? If
not, by all means, contact the team. Be polite and explain the inconsistency
between what the usher told you and what you were allowed to bring into
the game. Also explain that inconsistency caused you to miss some portion
of the game because you chose to leave rather than check your camera.

Be forewarned that you may not get the answer you want to hear from the
team. However, they might be understanding of the mistake and offer up
something as a compromise for the misunderstanding.

If you want to get some practice shooting hockey, head over to UTC and
try there. Be sure to ask first. Usually, at a place like UTC, there's a Director
of Hockey or similar position that manages the various leagues--that'd be the
place to start.

Good luck.

Ian

Red Bull · January 8, 2006

The ticket doesn't have the policy on there, so I will definately contact them about it. I just find it weird (and to be honest, stupid) to not be allowed to use cameras with detachable lenses.

About the lens, I was in a place that would not have distracted anyone. I was behind and above the lower levels, and the people behind me were very elevated above me.

I never thought about going to UTC. Maybe I'll give it a try. Thank you for your reply.

ed_h · January 8, 2006

Red Bull wrote:

I'm not sure where to put this, so I'll post it here.

So my question is, what do you think about all this? What would you have done?I am going to email the arena about this policy. I don't get why I can't bring in a dSLR with interchangeable lenses, but people can bring their point and shoot cameras with "super-zooms" on them.

My other question is, is it possible to get a media pass? How would I get one? Can I get one at my age? (16)

Personally i think you handled it in an adult manner, no sense arguing with these goons as their not capable of any creative thinking. First thing i would try would be a letter (not an email) to the center management or team owners complaining on how you were handled and the unfairness of the whole thing. You may be able to get a media pass by being on your school newspaper as a sports photographer, thats how i got mine many years ago.
ed

ian408 · January 8, 2006

ed_h wrote:

Personally i think you handled it in an adult manner, no sense arguing with these goons as their not capable of any creative thinking. First thing i would try would be a letter (not an email) to the center management or team owners complaining on how you were handled and the unfairness of the whole thing. You may be able to get a media pass by being on your school newspaper as a sports photographer, thats how i got mine many years ago.
ed

The bit about being on your school paper might work. Good advice.

But remember, the ushers are given a job to do. They are not paid to think
creatively. Their world is B&W.

Good luck and do let us know how it pans out.

Ian

DanielB · January 8, 2006

i suppose this is why they made the 70-300 IS DO eh? as far as the minimum lenght of lense goes.

graeme_7799 · January 8, 2006

i've shot my local team lots with a 70-200 2.8 and have never had a problem with "goons". you do not need a media pass if this is for personal shots that you aren't going to sell (my guess is that there is a dedicated team photog and she was simply trying to protect his work maybe? most photogs get their panties in a bunch when it comes to competition

)

ScottMcLeod · January 8, 2006

Get the "Goon's" name next time, and cause a bit of a stir ("I'm trying to take some sports photos for my grandpa's birthday. He can't really come out to the games anymore, and he used to play, etc...", or "I've gotta get these shots for an assignment for photography class." OR... point out that digital cameras exist that are smaller than yours with LONGER zoom lenses, IE: S9000, H1, S2IS.).

If they ask you to check your camera, ask them to provide you a typed and signed letter (from someone important who wouldn't want to be bothered) saying that they will insure your checked camera, for it's full value, and total up everything you have, otherwise don't let them remove the camera from you.

Also, when you see other people with cameras, go find the someone and have them deal with it. If they won't touch the people because they're handicapped or whatever, then claim that you're being singled out because you're a teenager with a love for photography.

Art Scott · January 8, 2006

Some venues do have a no pro cameras allowed policy...it just keeps the people with no respect from blocking the view of others....but unfortunately it hurts others as well.

I have probs even when I had all access passes from the people I was shooting 'cause they had not let the venue know ahead of time that I was going to be there working for them....I was picked up and carried out of concert I was shooting once,,,,,,,the lead of the band had me carried back in and set back in the exact spot where I was removed from before he would resume the concert....security guard (goon) never bothered me again at any venue he and I was at.....he even carried my camera bag once.....

Red Bull · January 8, 2006

I really wish that I could have gone back and said some of the things you suggested, Scott. The only problem is, they probably wouldn't take any excuses. Another problem is, the second you start to argue all they have to do is call with their radio and they will get more goons for backup. If I get a reply back from the arena that says that I can have it, then I WILL be back with my camera and the letter from them. In the letter I will be sure to mention that I am only using the shots for personal use.

I kind of have a feeling that I won't be getting the answer I want though....

DoctorIt · January 8, 2006

Steven, listen to Ian. You acted like an adult the first time, don't start resorting to more childish behavior. Sorry, but some of Scott's advice is definitely "sinking". Don't make up stories about why you have to shoot there. It's their sandbox, they make rules.

You have to try and see it their way. Its a business. If they let it go with you, what about the next guy that comes in with a 70-200 f/2.8 IS and a little monopod? Other spectators don't want photographers sitting next to them snapping away with their big gun.

BTW, if anyone is a goon, its probably the lazy security guy who wasn't up to date on the policy and let you through. The lady was just doing her job, by your own description, she wasn't rude, just persistent.

ian408 · January 8, 2006

ScottMcLeod wrote:

Get the "Goon's" name next time, and cause a bit of a stir ("I'm trying to take some sports photos for my grandpa's birthday. He can't really come out to the games anymore, and he used to play, etc...", or "I've gotta get these shots for an assignment for photography class." OR... point out that digital cameras exist that are smaller than yours with LONGER zoom lenses, IE: S9000, H1, S2IS.).

An excuse like "I'm trying to get..." is just that. An excuse. And trying to
make technical comparisons with someone who's been told "no cameras
with detachable lenses" won't fly. Arguing with an usher is like arguing with
the cops when you get a ticket. It's not worth it. Especially if you're
escorted from the premises and asked not to come back.

As you've decided to do, the correct thing to do is ask the team to clarify
their policy.

ScottMcLeod wrote:

If they ask you to check your camera, ask them to provide you a typed and signed letter (from someone important who wouldn't want to be bothered) saying that they will insure your checked camera, for it's full value, and total up everything you have, otherwise don't let them remove the camera from you.

How will this help Steven? He'd just spend an eternity sitting and waiting
for a signature he will never get. When you check something, it's at your
own risk (read the claim check).

ScottMcLeod wrote:

Also, when you see other people with cameras, go find the someone and have them deal with it. If they won't touch the people because they're handicapped or whatever, then claim that you're being singled out because you're a teenager with a love for photography.

The usher explained why Steven's camera was not allowed and others were.
As for shooting from the handicapped seating areas, a lot of credentialed
photographers looking for different angles will shoot from there if no one is
seated there.

Steven, you handled yourself well the first time. As someone mentioned
earlier, try for a credential through your school. Alternatively, you could
(again through your school) try and work with the team photographer
through a work experience program.

SCS_Photo · January 8, 2006

Don't give up. But on the floor, during the game, is not the place to debate the finer points of their photo policy. I know it kind of sends a mixed message - I'm pretty young too... but get your old man to make an appointment with the director of admissions or whatever the venue manager is called. Being that you are Season Ticket holders, you should stand a better chance of getting a photography pass. A permanent one, tied to your season ticket purchase. Have your old man allude that he will not continue to pay for season tickets unless...

ScottMcLeod · January 8, 2006

ian408 wrote:

An excuse like "I'm trying to get..." is just that. An excuse. And trying to
make technical comparisons with someone who's been told "no cameras
with detachable lenses" won't fly. Arguing with an usher is like arguing with
the cops when you get a ticket. It's not worth it. Especially if you're
escorted from the premises and asked not to come back.

As you've decided to do, the correct thing to do is ask the team to clarify
their policy.

How will this help Steven? He'd just spend an eternity sitting and waiting
for a signature he will never get. When you check something, it's at your
own risk (read the claim check).

The usher explained why Steven's camera was not allowed and others were.
As for shooting from the handicapped seating areas, a lot of credentialed
photographers looking for different angles will shoot from there if no one is
seated there.

Steven, you handled yourself well the first time. As someone mentioned
earlier, try for a credential through your school. Alternatively, you could
(again through your school) try and work with the team photographer
through a work experience program.

Usher isn't an appropriate word for "goon.".

I'm an usher at the theatre here, and there's a HUGE difference between us and security goons. If someone tells me they're not giving me their camera, I'm just going to tell them to put it away and not take it out again, or I'll ask them to leave. We also don't make stupid differentiations between "small" and "big" cameras. Cameras are cameras.

It wouldn't "help" steven regarding the check, but my cameras NEVER leave my side unless whoever's taking them will cover someone's stupidity when they toss my camera bag onto a shelf or into a corner.

Regardless, It's pointless for us to be arguing. We sit on opposite sides of the fence, therefore neither of us will come to agreement (I don't think this is the first time you've disagreed with my opinion).

He's already got ideas on how to find a way to shoot inside the arena, so let's hope the people that run the place aren't buttfaces and realise that he's just a 16 year old with a passion for photography.

Red Bull · January 8, 2006

Thanks everyone for your replies. I just figure that I don't want to make a fool of myself since I've been going to Gulls games for so long and I don't want a bad reputation. All I want is a policy that is consistent. I feel that if I'm not allowed to bring my camera, then they should crack down on other people with cameras whether or not they are a P&S.

SCS_Photo · January 8, 2006

Red Bull wrote:

Thanks everyone for your replies. I just figure that I don't want to make a fool of myself since I've been going to Gulls games for so long and I don't want a bad reputation. All I want is a policy that is consistent. I feel that if I'm not allowed to bring my camera, then they should crack down on other people with cameras whether or not they are a P&S.

That sounds like the "If ya can't beat 'em, join 'em" idea.... :uhoh

Don't be another photographer's goon.

ian408 · January 8, 2006

ScottMcLeod wrote:

Usher isn't an appropriate word for "goon.".

I'm an usher at the theatre here, and there's a HUGE difference between us and security goons. If someone tells me they're not giving me their camera, I'm just going to tell them to put it away and not take it out again, or I'll ask them to leave. We also don't make stupid differentiations between "small" and "big" cameras. Cameras are cameras.

Different venue, different set of rules.

ScottMcLeod wrote:

Regardless, It's pointless for us to be arguing. We sit on opposite sides of the fence, therefore neither of us will come to agreement (I don't think this is the first time you've disagreed with my opinion).

He's already got ideas on how to find a way to shoot inside the arena, so let's hope the people that run the place aren't buttfaces and realise that he's just a 16 year old with a passion for photography.

Your theatre's policy is different than that of many professional sporting
events and I'm sure that your management wouldn't take kindly to someone
with a video or still camera. That's their policy.

There is a definite difference of opinion as to what the appropriate action is.
But your advice is what makes those that set the policy "buttfaces" in the
first place.

Red Bull · January 8, 2006

^^It may be, but it would at least be consistent.

I wouldn't have had a problem if the bag checker at the entrance had told me "Sorry, no cameras allowed in here". It's the fact that I was let in with it, but told after that I couldn't have it. I mean, checking for things that aren't allowed in the arena is their job after all.

SportsShots · January 8, 2006

Steven,
Thanks for sending me the email and asking me to read your post. I decided to post a response here for others to read as well.

I will address a few of the key topics.

Let me say that what you encountered is not all that uncommon. There are lots of photogs that dont get media passes and try and shoot from the stands. For all intense purposes, it really has nothing to do with blocking the view of other fans. It boils down to the league wanting to have control of where their photos end up.

We can agree that you were shooting with "pro" level equipment. Which in turn, can produce "pro" quality pictures. The leagues want to be able to control the distribution of where those images end up or what outlet will be distributing them. When applying for press credentials, you typically have to be representing some type of media outlet. It's very difficult to recieve credentials if you are just "freelancing". Although you would like to get the best shots possible for your own reasons. There is a limited number of credentials for most venues, not to mention a limited area for us to function.

It also very standard for most sporting venues to have some sort of camera policies. They are not typically worried about spectators that have point and shoot camera with at most, is a 3x opitcal zoom. Your equipment is much more superior in in quality and ability.

I applaud you for handling the situation they way that you did. It was idiotic of them to think that you would secure your equipment in some unobserved office. You did the right thing.

Dont give up though, keep plugging away and start shooting as much as you can. If you are thinking of pursuing sports, start at the high school level, given your age, is the place to start. As you prove yourself there, other opportunities will begin to present themselves. Believe me on this one.

If you have any other questions, be sure to drop me an email.

I will also leave you with this, your not alone. There is popular forum where sports photographers post their portfolio's and exchange on a forum, similar to this one. A fellow photog had a similar experience as you did, last month. I will include the link below. You will see that we all went back and forth on this one quite a bit. But all in all, it's a very similar scenario.

Take care.

http://www.sportsshooter.com/message_display.html?tid=18706

ScottMcLeod · January 8, 2006

ian408 wrote:

Different venue, different set of rules.

Your theatre's policy is different than that of many professional sporting
events and I'm sure that your management wouldn't take kindly to someone
with a video or still camera. That's their policy.

There is a definite difference of opinion as to what the appropriate action is.
But your advice is what makes those that set the policy "buttfaces" in the
first place.

That's the most tactful way I've ever heard of calling me an idiot. I give up. I'm no sports photog, and I'm just going from my experiences so far shooting in theatrical/club venues.

My best luck so far has been refusing to let them take my camera away, to stop shooting, and finding out whoever's in charge of allowing/disallowing photographs, and explaining that i'm shooting with no commercial intent, and offering a copy of the photos to anyone who wants them. The worst I've had before is just to sign a document that I wouldn't sell or use the photos without their permission.

SportsShots · January 8, 2006

ScottMcLeod wrote:

That's the most tactful way I've ever heard of calling me an idiot. I give up. I'm no sports photog, and I'm just going from my experiences so far shooting in theatrical/club venues.

My best luck so far has been refusing to let them take my camera away, to stop shooting, and finding out whoever's in charge of allowing/disallowing photographs, and explaining that i'm shooting with no commercial intent, and offering a copy of the photos to anyone who wants them. The worst I've had before is just to sign a document that I wouldn't sell or use the photos without their permission.

Scott,
I respect your honesty that you are not a sports photog, so please dont take direct offense to this.

But as a sports photog, it's very frustrating in the industry to come across photogs who quickly offer to give up their pictures for free. You have to remember that when you do this, you are hurting us, the ones who make thier living shooting sports. Whether shooting on spec or direct day rates, it has the ability to impact our value greatly. If you are taking pictures to build your portfolio, that's one thing. But to just offer to give them away, does more harm to the industry than you realize.

As I said, I can only speak for the sports industry. But I can imagine the imapct that it would have with others.

Just my $.02

ian408 · January 8, 2006

ScottMcLeod wrote:

That's the most tactful way I've ever heard of calling me an idiot. I give up. I'm no sports photog, and I'm just going from my experiences so far shooting in theatrical/club venues.

Sorry if you feel that way as it was not my intent.

My only point is that different venues/events have different sets of rules.

Ian

Red Bull · January 8, 2006

I guess I don't have to write them a letter to find out the policy. I decided to check the website, and what do you know? I found the policy.

No video cameras or audio recording devices of any kind are allowed in the arena. Certain still cameras are permitted provided they are non-professional, intended for personal use, and have a non-detachable lens under three (3) inches in length. Acceptable digital cameras are permitted for sporting and family events, but digital cameras are not permitted for any other types of events, including concerts. No flashes are permitted at any time. POLICY IS SUBJECT TO CHANGE PER EVENT.

I guess the only thing to do is, well, not much really. Maybe try and get a media pass using the suggestions previously stated.

ScottMcLeod · January 9, 2006

Red Bull wrote:

I guess I don't have to write them a letter to find out the policy. I decided to check the website, and what do you know? I found the policy.

I guess the only thing to do is, well, not much really. Maybe try and get a media pass using the suggestions previously stated.

No, the solution is to design and build a 28-300mm f/1.8 lens that's shorter than 3" in length, that can magically bend light and let you shoot in teh venue ^_^

ScottMcLeod · January 9, 2006

SportsShots wrote:

Scott,
I respect your honesty that you are not a sports photog, so please dont take direct offense to this.

But as a sports photog, it's very frustrating in the industry to come across photogs who quickly offer to give up their pictures for free. You have to remember that when you do this, you are hurting us, the ones who make thier living shooting sports. Whether shooting on spec or direct day rates, it has the ability to impact our value greatly. If you are taking pictures to build your portfolio, that's one thing. But to just offer to give them away, does more harm to the industry than you realize.

As I said, I can only speak for the sports industry. But I can imagine the imapct that it would have with others.

Just my $.02

I meant, in exchange for permission to shoot in the space and use the work in my portfolio, that I would provide a CD of shots (to anyone that took offense of me shooting) of the work from that given event.

I wouldn't do it on a regular basis, rather I'd use it as a way of selling myself to the venue.

That being said, I don't own any sports lenses, so y'all are safe until I move back to Ottawa and start shooting motorsports again, or if someone can give me a lift to Shannonville.

graeme_7799 · January 9, 2006

No video cameras or audio recording devices of any kind are allowed in the arena. Certain still cameras are permitted provided they are non-professional, intended for personal use, and have a non-detachable lens under three (3) inches in length. Acceptable digital cameras are permitted for sporting and family events, but digital cameras are not permitted for any other types of events, including concerts. No flashes are permitted at any time. POLICY IS SUBJECT TO CHANGE PER EVENT.

I've never heard of this kind of policy anywhere. Any lens over 3 inches in length? lol. ridiculous...

wholenewlight · January 9, 2006

But on the other side of the coin, you have the Bryce Jordan center at Penn State.

On their website they have a "Photo of the Week" section and a "Favorite Photo Archive"

Here's a LINK to some shots in the Favorite Photo section: Dave Matthews Band taken with a lens that looks like it was probably longer than "3 inches" !

Evidently they are a little more camera friendly. . .

ian408 · January 9, 2006

graeme_7799 wrote:

No video cameras or audio recording devices of any kind are allowed in the arena. Certain still cameras are permitted provided they are non-professional, intended for personal use, and have a non-detachable lens under three (3) inches in length. Acceptable digital cameras are permitted for sporting and family events, but digital cameras are not permitted for any other types of events, including concerts. No flashes are permitted at any time. POLICY IS SUBJECT TO CHANGE PER EVENT.

I've never heard of this kind of policy anywhere. Any lens over 3 inches in length? lol. ridiculous...

It's not at all uncommon but why do you consider it ridiculous?

Regarding the Dave Matthews pictures. Probably taken by a credentialed
photographer. With the right credential, you can take what ever photos
your credential entitles you too.

Ian

wholenewlight · January 9, 2006

ian408 wrote:

It's not at all uncommon but why do you consider it ridiculous?

Regarding the Dave Matthews pictures. Probably taken by a credentialed
photographer. With the right credential, you can take what ever photos
your credential entitles you too.

Ian

Doubtful,

A wide variety of picture quality on the DMB pics and other shows. Many that a credentialed photog would never claim.

DoctorIt · January 9, 2006

Red Bull wrote:

I guess I don't have to write them a letter to find out the policy. I decided to check the website, and what do you know? I found the policy.

I guess the only thing to do is, well, not much really. Maybe try and get a media pass using the suggestions previously stated.

Again, you're a bigger man to read this policy and take it for what it is. If you get frustrated and act pissed off over every little thing like this, you'll never get anywhere, including with your photography.

Keep posting here, send stuff to the local paper, go to all the events you can, and keep growing. I like your attitude and admire that at the ripe old age you're at, you can accept it and blow it off. When I remember what a hothead I was at your age...

NHBubba · January 9, 2006

Funny to read this now. Just two weeks ago I went to a pro football game (NFL: Miami Dolphins at New England Patriots). I wanted to bring my DRebel and my 70-200. These games are exciting.. but there are lots of boring breaks and I figured having the camera in hand could be fun. I read on the Gillette Stadium website that no cameras (of any type) were permitted! This struck me as a bigtime bummer as I figured I'd at least bring the P&S for snaps of my bud's and I in the stands. (It isn't everyday we come up w/ the $90/ticket + parking and gas!)

But the policy was the policy.. so I left the camera(s) in the car. However once inside I saw tons of people floating around w/ P&S'ers.. I even saw one woman (clearly not a pro) walking around w/ a film SLR and a fairly long lens (I'd estimate at least 200mm). Although her equipment definitely did not look 'pro' (it was clearly a fairly consumer setup). So aparently the 'no camera' rule is somewhat fluid. I'm wondering if it depends on your equipment (maybe white bodied Canon L lenses would get you turned away, but more consumer stuff is okay). Maybe it depends on what gate you come in through, which security staff you get searched by..

What bugs me here is that even once the policy is (clearly) stated.. it apears that there is some flexibility to it! Ergh!

"No professional cameras" WTF?

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