New Photo Info's Date Taken is Wrong EXIF Metadata

NY2LA

I've noticed that you've changed the Info feature. For the most part, the changes are an improvement.

However, randomly checking the new Photo Info feature on a few of my images reveals that it is not reading the correct EXIF metadata for the Date Taken. My photos are scans of film from before EXIF metadata existed. I enter the date the photos were actually shot into the EXIF Date Time Original field using Adobe Bridge. SmugMug's Info used to show this date as the Date Taken. But now it appears to be showing the date the image file was created.

For example, Info about one particular photo used to show the actual calendar day the photo was taken, entered manually with Adobe Bridge, as follows: 1990-12-07 00:00:00. On the same photo, Photo Info now shows the Date Taken as the date the film was scanned, as follows: 2013-02-20 15:56:28-08:00.

Perhaps many people won't notice this discrepancy, because with digitally born photos, the date a photo was shot and the date the image file was created are usually the same. But it does mean, for example, if someone uses software to correct the time zone, SmugMug's Photo Info won't show the correct time zone.

I hope that you will fix this.

leftquark

Hmm.... we've received some reports of date taken seeming off, but in my research so far, it looks like we're pulling the proper date taken. Let me try to break it down and see if something is amiss:

There's a few dates that get embedded in a photo:
1) Date Time Digitized
2) Date Time Taken (Adobe calls it Date Time Original)
3) Date Time Modified

#1 (Date Time Digitized) is the original date the photo was taken, or the file creation date. This cannot be updated.
#2 (Date Time Taken, aka Date Time Original) is the last known "Date Taken". It's either the same as #1, or whatever date was set in EXIF, which can be modified by programs like Lightroom, Bridge, etc.
#3 (Date Time Modified) is the last time the photo was saved, EXIF, or any changes.

For the Photo Info on SM, we're using #2, Date Time Taken (or Date Time Original, as Adobe calls it) for the "Date Taken". You can see an example of this here, where the photo was originally taken on 12/5/2015 at 2:31:27pm, but I then modified it in Lightroom to be 2:28:52pm. SmugMug is correctly showing it as taken at "2:28:52pm".

Perhaps the problem, for you, occurs when #2 (Date Time Taken/Date Time Original) s is missing, we may be falling back onto the wrong date. Could you send me some links to your images, with the date times that you expect them to show, so I can dig deeper?

Richard

I'm in the middle of scanning a bunch of old pics, and I see some problems here. The only field that LR allows manual entry of a date is in the IPTC image Date Created field, though there is way to edit the capture time, which affects both the IPTC field and the Date/time Original fields. There are a number of other date fields, but they appear to correspond to the scan time and processing time; these are not editable. So far, I haven't uploaded these pics to SM, but I did a test and it looks like the date information is not going to be usable for organizing galleries. For example, here's a pic from 1982. I entered 1982 in the date created field in LR. But the info box in SM shows Date Taken as the scan time (i.e., date-time digitized) and Date Modified as what I think must be the upload time. Neither of these are what a normal person would think of as the "date taken."

For my normal digital workflow, the IPTC Image Date Created field is automatically filled in with the Date/Time Original timestamp. Perhaps it would be possible for SM to let the IPTC field override the Date/Time Original field if both are present and they are not identical, which is the case with my scanned pics. Of course, that might create mischief in some other scenario.

Dunno--this stuff makes my head spin. There are too many date fields and the terminology is confusing. It doesn't help that LR itself does not seem very consistent--sometimes adding a date to the IPTC field is recognized by LR's date filters and sometimes it is not. I have no idea why, but will try to find out.

EDIT: OK, I'm making some progress. It looks like you can get SM to recognize the date you want, but it is a two-step process in LR. Adding a date to a batch in metadata on import does not seem to affect the Date/Time original field, but only the IPTC field. Editing the IPTC field in the metadata sidebar doesn't seem to help either. However, using the Metadata->Edit Capture Time function changes the IPTC field and Date/Time Original field. It's this last one that SM uses, and if you jump through this extra hoop, it will display correctly in the SM info box. Not sure whether SM sorts will work correctly, but I'll leave that for another day.

agallia

Thanks for clearing this up. Using #2 works for me.

leftquark

Richard wrote: »

using the Metadata->Edit Capture Time function changes the IPTC field and Date/Time Original field. It's this last one that SM uses, and if you jump through this extra hoop, it will display correctly in the SM info box. Not sure whether SM sorts will work correctly, but I'll leave that for another day.

Anything done via Metadata -> Edit Capture Time, works perfectly We take that as the "Date Taken" since it updates "Date Time Original" (aka "Date Time Taken")

Ferguson

While we are on this subject, any consideration for using the SubSecond portion of Date Time Original as well as just the seconds? Photos in a burst come out in the wrong order.

NY2LA

leftquark: I think that SmugMug's Photo Info is possibly not reading the camera's EXIF metadata at all with respect to the dates. I think you may be reading metadata being put into the files as soon you do the first save in Lightroom. Please try A Better Finder Attributes and see what you find. Trying looking at an image file straight from the camera (no modifications whatsoever to the original file), and compare it with the same image file after saving just one time in Lightroom (even if you did nothing more than say, rotate an image). Also, try changing Date Time Original with A Better Finder Attributes, and then see what you see in SmugMug's Photo Info. I don't use Lightroom, but I know that Photoshop puts its own set of dates into my image files as soon as I do the very first Save. In fact, weirdly enough, the Date Modified showing up in SmugMug's Photo Info are the dates that I create JPEG's from uncompressed TIFF's.

Support for A Better Finder Attributes wrote in an email dated Jul 13, 2015 6:56 AM:

A Better Finder Attributes edits only “Date Time Original.” Any other EXIF fields are left unaffected, including “Date Time Digitized” (typically used to store the date a physical medium was scanned).

Richard: In my experience, there is little or no support for IPTC Date Created anywhere, unfortunately. But some software does recognize the EXIF Date Time Original dates that I've entered manually with Adobe Bridge (i.e., my iPad shows those dates.)

NY2LA

Perhaps the problem, for you, occurs when #2 (Date Time Taken/Date Time Original) s is missing, we may be falling back onto the wrong date. Could you send me some links to your images, with the date times that you expect them to show, so I can dig deeper?

I can't show you an example on SmugMug, because SmugMug's Photo Info is no longer showing what it used to show. So here is one of my images from 1972 on Flickr: https://www.flickr.com/photos/mozzermemories/23655714202

Please click on Show EXIF. See the following date: Date and Time (Original) - 1972:02:23 00:00:00.

That is the date that I entered with Adobe Bridge, which SmugMug's Info used to show, and no longer does.

Richard

NY2LA wrote: »

Richard: In my experience, there is little or no support for IPTC Date Created anywhere, unfortunately. But some software does recognize the EXIF Date Time Original dates that I've entered manually with Adobe Bridge (i.e., my iPad shows those dates.)

Yes, I realize that now. Unlike Bridge, LR does not allow editing the date/time original in the metadata panel, which is the only reason I was using the IPTC field. Editing using Metadata->Change Capture Time affects both the date/time original and the IPTC field, so that's what I will use.

I suspect that one size is not going to fit all here, as much depends on the software path that has been followed. I use HP software to get images from the HP scanner to the computer. When the TIF is imported into LR it shows no date information whatsoever. Further processing in LR and PS adds some date info, but not date/time original (without the explicit Metadata edit above), which is the key field SM looks for. Other scanner and editing software may work differently, but at least now I understand what to be aiming for in SmugMug.

Ferguson

For what it is worth, I went through many of the possible combinations to figure out what the LR plugin and web upload do with date fields, and put it here. To me I think what currently happens is really a bug. There's still issues with how different products may update the relevant fields, but Smugmug is not being consistent internally either, which exacerbates people's problems in trying to find out what happens.

On a related note, if you want to really see what is in the image being uploaded, here is a nice tool:

ExifTool

Used like this it shows everything in the field:

exiftool.exe -a -u -g1 ImageFile.jpg

leftquark

ExifTool is what we use to pull the EXIF information.

OK, phew, after some exhaustive searching and research into how metadata is stored, I think we have a handle on this. To make a long story short, we just pushed (or about to push) a fix that corrects these dates. Can you confirm?

Long answer: there are a lot of different date fields (could be XMP, could be EXIF, could be IPTC, etc) that could all go into choosing the Date Taken. We rank them in importance, first if ExifTool gives us a summary of its known information, then flowing down with the various options. In your case, the field was missing until we got down to XMP data. There's both a "CreateDate" and a "DateCreated". DateCreated, though, is an Adobe (Photoshop) created field and wasn't something in the XMP metadata spec, so we weren't expecting it. We were using CreateDate, which is actually the Digitized Date. DateCreated, though, is the modified date that you've been entering. If we switch it to use its own DateTaken XMP field, it should fix this for you.

I tested it on your scanned image and it looks like it's OK, but I'd love for you to confirm!

NY2LA

leftquark wrote: »

I tested it on your scanned image and it looks like it's OK, but I'd love for you to confirm!

Yes, you have apparently fixed it. I checked about ten of my images, randomly selected, and they all have the correct date now. Thanks. It looks nice.

OmahaMama

So, I've been reading this and other threads, and I'm hoping someone can just give me a simple answer. (haha, I know)

I use Lightroom, and I, too, have a bunch of scanned photos that I would like to have digitially dated, so I can have a SmugMug 'Search by Date' page and find the appropriate photos.

My process so far: I use Lightroom --> Metadata --> Edit Capture Time; I use the Lightroom PlugIn and hit 'Publish;' and it doesn't seem to be working on my 'Search by Date' page on my SmugMug site.


Can someone tell me, step by step, how they were able to edit the Capture Time/Date Created/Create Date/???WHATEVER??? so that I can search and sort by date? If you need more info from me on my setup, I am happy to oblige. My SmugMug site is: RogersFamilyPhotos.SmugMug.com

Sara

Allen

I think the "search by date" is using upload date not date taken.

leftquark

Allen wrote: »

I think the "search by date" is using upload date not date taken.

Yes, Allen is correct. "Search" and sorting by "Newest" or "Oldest" is by Upload Date.

OmahaMama wrote: »

My process so far: I use Lightroom --> Metadata --> Edit Capture Time; I use the Lightroom PlugIn and hit 'Publish;' and it doesn't seem to be working on my 'Search by Date' page on my SmugMug site.

Can someone tell me, step by step, how they were able to edit the Capture Time/Date Created/Create Date/???WHATEVER??? so that I can search and sort by date?

You're doing the correct method for editing the Capture Time. That's the best way to get an accurate time into your photos metadata and up to us. We're just not sorting it right. We've got a fix going through QA so that your galleries use the Date Taken when sorting.

A slightly more detailed answer: Photos can have Date Taken stored in a number of ways. We should be looking at all of the ways that the Date Taken was stored, but we're currently only sorting it on 1 of the Date Taken fields. The fix is to use all of the Date Taken fields when sorting by Date Taken.

Stay tuned to the Product News forum, I'll answer when we release the fix there. I'll try to poke in here and mention it as well.

OmahaMama

Allen wrote: »

I think the "search by date" is using upload date not date taken.

Well, that makes sense for the results I'm seeing. THANK YOU for helping me figure out the kink in that part of my set up.


But to point out something odd... my 'Search by Date' page on my SmugMug somehow is 'counting' (for lack of a better term) the number of images in the year. But when you click the year, "No Photos Found." So something in there *knows* they are there, hence the count of images. http://rogersfamilyphotos.smugmug.com/date

Not that you need to do anything about it, but there is something odd in there...

OmahaMama

You're doing the correct method for editing the Capture Time. That's the best way to get an accurate time into your photos metadata and up to us. We're just not sorting it right. We've got a fix going through QA so that your galleries use the Date Taken when sorting.

A slightly more detailed answer: Photos can have Date Taken stored in a number of ways. We should be looking at all of the ways that the Date Taken was stored, but we're currently only sorting it on 1 of the Date Taken fields. The fix is to use all of the Date Taken fields when sorting by Date Taken.

Stay tuned to the Product News forum, I'll answer when we release the fix there. I'll try to poke in here and mention it as well.

Thanks for filling me in. I'll stay tuned.

If you happen to have a guess about when this change goes into effect, I'd like to know. Rough ball park is good enough for me. Like 2 weeks? 6 months? 1 year?

Thanks again. This is what makes SmugMug service go great.

leftquark

OmahaMama wrote: »

If you happen to have a guess about when this change goes into effect, I'd like to know. Rough ball park is good enough for me. Like 2 weeks? 6 months? 1 year?

The good news is that we've Engineered the fix and it's in quality assurance. Unfortunately I have no ability to estimate how long it will be there. Ideally in the next week or two, and hopefully no longer than a month.

leftquark

OmahaMama wrote: »

Thanks for filling me in. I'll stay tuned.

If you happen to have a guess about when this change goes into effect, I'd like to know. Rough ball park is good enough for me. Like 2 weeks? 6 months? 1 year?

Thanks again. This is what makes SmugMug service go great.

The fix for sorting by Date Taken just went live. Let me know if it fixes things or if you're still having problems.