Challenge C&C format suggestion

rutt

The C&C format change we just tried in the last challenge was very nice, but I have a suggestion for improving on it. Let's see if anyone else likes it as much as I do.

The idea is:

1. Upload images for C&C to a smugmug gallery just as we did for Challenge 20,
2. Start a discussion thread at the time one submits an image for C&C, and
3. Put a link in the image title in the smugmug gallery to the discussion thread.

I have done just this for my Challenge 20 "Kodachrome" images. You can see how this works here.

The advantages of this approach are:

1. Uses only existing technology
2. Allows us to use dgrin for what it is good for: composing and sharing messages.
3. Allows us to use smugmug for what it is good for: sharing images.
4. The smugmug images act as indices into the discussion threads.
5. Multiple versions of the same image can point into the same discussion thread (a big drawback of using smugmug comments.)
6. Dgrin threads allow subscriptions, unlike smugmug comments (at least the way we are using them.)
7. Leaves it up the the C&C submitter whether to make the original available in the discussion thread.

To be honest, I suppose there are a few drawbacks:

1. Submission requires an extra step - starting the thread or uploading the image to smugmug, depending.
2. Have to learn to add a link to a smugmug image title.

To be honest, I can't think of any other drawbacks. Drawback 1 is too bad. I suggested automating this a couple of weeks ago and nobody seemed to be either doing it or making the sources available so I could do it. Drawback 2 I think we can easily overcome by providing a simple template.

We could just let the free market work here. Just start doing this if you like and see how it works.

lynnesite

rutt wrote:

The C&C format change we just tried in the last challenge was very nice, but I have a suggestion for improving on it. Let's see if anyone else likes it as much as I do.

[/list] To be honest, I can't think of any other drawbacks. Drawback 1 is too bad. I suggested automating this a couple of weeks ago and nobody seemed to be either doing it or making the sources available so I could do it. Drawback 2 I think we can easily overcome by providing a simple template.

We could just let the free market work here. Just start doing this if you like and see how it works.

I like it very much, Rutt. Great improvement on going back to images at smugmug looking for new comments, that got old fast. I'll bet most of us are already embedding links from our smugmug galleries.

Lynne

Andy

rutt wrote:

I suggested automating this a couple of weeks ago and nobody seemed to be either doing it or making the sources available so I could do it.

can you elaborate, i'm not following you here

spockling

If Dgrin is just like a big hard drive.....why can we not create another "directory" under the challenge 21 c&c thread and then we each start our own thread for ourselves? That way we can still post the images in one place, instead of going back and forth between two?????

rutt

andy wrote:

can you elaborate, i'm not following you here

Here is the post that contains the suggestion. The idea is just to take a page from the FM book. There would be a forum for the challenges. Starting a new thread in that forum with some special format subject would automatically add the photo from the first message of the thread to a gallery and make it link to the thread. Exactly like entering a photo in a FM assiignment does.

Is that clearer?

Andy

rutt wrote:

Here is the post that contains the suggestion. The idea is just to take a page from the FM book. There would be a forum for the challenges. Starting a new thread in that forum with some special format subject would automatically add the photo from the first message of the thread to a gallery and make it link to the thread. Exactly like entering a photo in a FM assiignment does.

Is that clearer?

it sounds like this would involve some custom coding? i can tell you that there's no resources available to do this, unfortunately.

rutt

andy wrote:

it sounds like this would involve some custom coding? i can tell you that there's no resources available to do this, unfortunately.

Right, I have figured this out. That's why I volunteered to do it. But Baldy hasn't shown any interest in me as a resource. I'm a very experienced programmer.

snapapple

I'll try anything...

lynnesite wrote:

I like it very much, Rutt. Great improvement on going back to images at smugmug looking for new comments, that got old fast. I'll bet most of us are already embedding links from our smugmug galleries.

Lynne

It's got to be better than what we have. I gave up on it and just entered my picture with no comments. Some very nice people sent me PMs to comment on my picture. I tried to comment on some of those multiple entries and couldn't find where the comments were. It's not flowing well. I noticed Ginger just started her own thread on dGrin. I would have done the same if I had the time, but it was the last day when I decided to make a choice between two pictures.
Please, Andy, lets do something to improve this.
Snappy

Andy

you guys want your cake and eat it too!
we should be concentrating on taking photographs and sharing via comments and critiques - how it gets done? who cares, so long as it gets done.

if you can't follow the c&c in the comments directly associated with an image in a gallery, then i honestly don't know what a better solution is.

snapapple, i'll be happy to show you where each comment is under each pic in challenge 20 if you'd like me to walk you thru it, please let me know.

ginger_55

Andy, I agree with Snappy, I have just decided that saying something does not get me anywhere, except in trouble. But I do agree with Snappy, and I am going to say that.

And I understand the whole thing, with the exception of private links, or whatever. But I don't need to understand that.

Sorry, I just felt like I had/have to say something. We have people who like this way of doing things and people who don't. Both Snappy and I stuck with it, and we entered a photo. Other than that we might have opinions that diverge from other people's opinions.

I thought I remembered something about voting on this new way after the last Challenge, maybe I misunderstood.

Both Snappy and I understand the way this new way works. There would be no need to walk us through it, or not me anyway.

ginger

snapapple

ginger_55 wrote:

Andy, I agree with Snappy, I have just decided that saying something does not get me anywhere, except in trouble. But I do agree with Snappy, and I am going to say that.

And I understand the whole thing, with the exception of private links, or whatever. But I don't need to understand that.

Sorry, I just felt like I had/have to say something. We have people who like this way of doing things and people who don't. Both Snappy and I stuck with it, and we entered a photo. Other than that we might have opinions that diverge from other people's opinions.

I thought I remembered something about voting on this new way after the last Challenge, maybe I misunderstood.

Both Snappy and I understand the way this new way works. There would be no need to walk us through it, or not me anyway.

ginger

No need to walk me through it either. I know how it works. It's just that I have to look at every picture separately, and when one person has 3 versions of a photo that I have not seen yet, I have to look at each one to see comments and try to follow what has been going on. I've been working and I try to pop in on lunch hour or breaks and it takes too long. I can maybe comment on one picture. I have to upload twice for mine. Then I have to hope someone notices my picture and says something. When I had my picture ready to upload this last time, I couldn't take the time, so I just put it in the challenge thread with no attempt at help. Luckily some helpful people PMd me with hints. I saw those PMs faster than if I had to go to smugmug to check to see if there was any comments. I simply didn't have any time.
The new way worked, but I like the suggestion to try to make it work better. I like having a thread for an exchange of ideas.

pathfinder

lynnesite wrote:

I like it very much, Rutt. Great improvement on going back to images at smugmug looking for new comments, that got old fast. I'll bet most of us are already embedding links from our smugmug galleries.

Lynne

I like this idea too John. I found trying to follow the comments and reply to them on the C&C thread on Smugmug annoying and frustrating such that I did not post but one image there. I see that Snapapple felt similarly.

The only real downside is that creating a thread on dgrin and then linking from dgrin.smugmug.com may be a bit intimidating to new members who do not have experience with linking like this. It can be kind of overwhelming when you are a newby. But it does not sound like Andy is thrilled about this concept does it?

Andy

thrilled not thrilled that's not the issue

pathfinder wrote:

I like this idea too John. I found trying to follow the comments and reply to them on the C&C thread on Smugmug annoying and frustrating such that I did not post but one image there. I see that Snapapple felt similarly.

The only real downside is that creating a thread on dgrin and then linking from dgrin.smugmug.com may be a bit intimidating to new members who do not have experience with linking like this. It can be kind of overwhelming when you are a newby. But it does not sound like Andy is thrilled about this concept does it?

it's *you guys* who need to be thrilled, not me and the prob is, there's no one solution that'll solve everyone's beefs.

rutt

andy wrote:

it's *you guys* who need to be thrilled, not me and the prob is, there's no one solution that'll solve everyone's beefs.

So far, I'm not hearing much negative reaction to my suggestion except from you, Andy.

Here is a simple HOWTO assuming no custom dgrin coding:

In order to submit a shot for C&C:

1. Start a new thread for discussion of the shot in the Challenges forum. The thread should be named: "Challenge XX: TITLE".
2. Copy the address of the new thread. Do this by highlighting it's URL and doing edit->copy in your browser.
3. Login to smugmug as dgrin and upload your shot to the challenge gallery.
4. Use photo tools->edit caption to add a caption. The caption format should be:

<h2>Title</h2>
<h2>Photographer's Name</h2>
<h2><a href="URL">Discussion thread</a></h2>
Whateer else you want

I'm sure we could make these instructions more clear and easier to follow.

The most important thing about this suggestion is that it's optional. All you really have to do is start the discussion thread for your shot. Anyone can do that and no permission is required to do so. Uploading to the dgrin gallery is just a way of "advertising" the discussion thread for the shot. The effect is exactly the same as for submitting to the FM assignments and it seems to be working there. Or you can just submit to the C&C gallery without starting a discussion thread as we did for the last challenge. But people who want the most feedback in the most easy to follow format will follow my HOWTO.

rutt

pathfinder wrote:

The only real downside is that creating a thread on dgrin and then linking from dgrin.smugmug.com may be a bit intimidating to new members who do not have experience with linking like this. It can be kind of overwhelming when you are a newby. But it does not sound like Andy is thrilled about this concept does it?

Well, I keep offering to custom code something just like the FM assignment gallery/discussion thread link. But it keeps being as if I never made the offer. I can do this, really. I have 30 years of software experience and we aren't talking rocket science here.

But fine we don't need any custom ccding (which would make it easier) or even any permission from our moderator to try this out. Just follow the HOWTO.

Andy

the c&c gallery is gone for this challenge. i've posted the method for c&c for challenge 21. follow it, or don't, that's your choice.

john, i certainly have no negative reaction to yours, or any, suggestions. in fact, i've been open to most everything that's been said about this topic since the beginning.

you must understand a few things, john:

1. i don't control the site, dgrin, baldy does.
2. i host the challenges becuase i enjoy doing it. but i don't enjoy all this "mechanical" discussion about how best to comment and critique. it takes a significant amount of my time to do this, time that is precious to me.

this third method of comments and critiques, that's in play for challenge 21, is interesting, and it's just like what fm does -- so those of you who've been asking for that please note.

now, let's all go and shoot some pitchas

rutt wrote:

So far, I'm not hearing much negative reaction to my suggestion except from you, Andy.

Here is a simple HOWTO assuming no custom dgrin coding:

In order to submit a shot for C&C:

1. Start a new thread for discussion of the shot in the Challenges forum. The thread should be named: "Challenge XX: TITLE".
2. Copy the address of the new thread. Do this by highlighting it's URL and doing edit->copy in your browser.
3. Login to smugmug as dgrin and upload your shot to the challenge gallery.
4. Use photo tools->edit caption to add a caption. The caption format should be:

<h2>Title</h2>
<h2>Photographer's Name</h2>
<h2><a href="URL">Discussion thread</a></h2>
Whateer else you want

I'm sure we could make these instructions more clear and easier to follow.

The most important thing about this suggestion is that it's optional. All you really have to do is start the discussion thread for your shot. Anyone can do that and no permission is required to do so. Uploading to the dgrin gallery is just a way of "advertising" the discussion thread for the shot. The effect is exactly the same as for submitting to the FM assignments and it seems to be working there. Or you can just submit to the C&C gallery without starting a discussion thread as we did for the last challenge. But people who want the most feedback in the most easy to follow format will follow my HOWTO.

Andy

nobody's disputing your experience, john

rutt wrote:

Well, I keep offering to custom code something just like the FM assignment gallery/discussion thread link. But it keeps being as if I never made the offer. I can do this, really. I have 30 years of software experience and we aren't talking rocket science here.

But fine we don't need any custom coding (which would make it easier) or even any permission from our moderator to try this out. Just follow the HOWTO.

your offer has been received, seen, and noted. thanks very much. again, i don't control this site, baldy does. i just host the challenges. i'm really trying very hard to make this an experience that's good for *everyone* - and welcoming to new folks. and as uncomplicated as possible.

we only had 16 or 17 entries in challenge 20 -- how about using some of your energy to corrall some new participants, that would be great

Baldy

Hey everyone,

Andy got my attention and asked me to take a look at this thread. Truth be told, up to this point it hadn't caught my attention because I had faith that Andy and free speech would prevail, but of course the part I wasn't thinking of is that you'd need some empowerment if features were needed.

I agree with Rutt that what smugmug does well is sharing and dgrin's software is a lot better for discussions. It has all the whistles like thread subscriptions, being able to quickly get to the first unread comment, editing, formatting, etc.

dgrin just uses off-the-shelf software, vBulletin, that is hackable. Here's a whole discussion forum just on vBulletin hacks: www.vbulletin.org . And another on vbulletin support: www.vbulletin.com .

So now for the downside of hacks: I had some on www.advrider.com, another board like this one, and found that when I'd upgrade to the latest version, the hack would either stop the upgrade or make vBulletin crash afterwards. So then I'd start the process of trying to figure out how to get ahold of whoever wrote the hack and see when they would be able to create a fix and oftimes days were involved.

So... I ended up narrowing the hacks to one that I understood, written by someone else. Once I knew the code, I have been able to fix it when the system b0rked or at least remove it until we could think up a fix. It's in the system now and adds a lot to advrider, so I'm glad we have it, but I've probably invested a few days in understanding all the ways it can go wrong and fixing it when it does.

Moral of the story: I like the idea if it can be kept simple and relatively fool proof (unlike all other software ever written).

rutt

Baldy wrote:

Hey everyone,

Andy got my attention and asked me to take a look at this thread. Truth be told, up to this point it hadn't caught my attention because I had faith that Andy and free speech would prevail, but of course the part I wasn't thinking of is that you'd need some empowerment if features were needed.

I agree with Rutt that what smugmug does well is sharing and dgrin's software is a lot better for discussions. It has all the whistles like thread subscriptions, being able to quickly get to the first unread comment, editing, formatting, etc.

dgrin just uses off-the-shelf software, vBulletin, that is hackable. Here's a whole discussion forum just on vBulletin hacks: www.vbulletin.org . And another on vbulletin support: www.vbulletin.com .

So now for the downside of hacks: I had some on www.advrider.com, another board like this one, and found that when I'd upgrade to the latest version, the hack would either stop the upgrade or make vBulletin crash afterwards. So then I'd start the process of trying to figure out how to get ahold of whoever wrote the hack and see when they would be able to create a fix and oftimes days were involved.

So... I ended up narrowing the hacks to one that I understood, written by someone else. Once I knew the code, I have been able to fix it when the system b0rked or at least remove it until we could think up a fix. It's in the system now and adds a lot to advrider, so I'm glad we have it, but I've probably invested a few days in understanding all the ways it can go wrong and fixing it when it does.

Moral of the story: I like the idea if it can be kept simple and relatively fool proof (unlike all other software ever written).

This could almost be done externally. Scan the threads looking for ones with the right format title. For those chcck the first message for a link to a jpg. If found, add to the gallery, linking back to the thread. That's totally it.

muddyknees

Baldy wrote:

Hey everyone,

Andy got my attention and asked me to take a look at this thread. Truth be told, up to this point it hadn't caught my attention because I had faith that Andy and free speech would prevail, but of course the part I wasn't thinking of is that you'd need some empowerment if features were needed.

I agree with Rutt that what smugmug does well is sharing and dgrin's software is a lot better for discussions. It has all the whistles like thread subscriptions, being able to quickly get to the first unread comment, editing, formatting, etc.

dgrin just uses off-the-shelf software, vBulletin, that is hackable. Here's a whole discussion forum just on vBulletin hacks: www.vbulletin.org . And another on vbulletin support: www.vbulletin.com .

So now for the downside of hacks: I had some on www.advrider.com, another board like this one, and found that when I'd upgrade to the latest version, the hack would either stop the upgrade or make vBulletin crash afterwards. So then I'd start the process of trying to figure out how to get ahold of whoever wrote the hack and see when they would be able to create a fix and oftimes days were involved.

So... I ended up narrowing the hacks to one that I understood, written by someone else. Once I knew the code, I have been able to fix it when the system b0rked or at least remove it until we could think up a fix. It's in the system now and adds a lot to advrider, so I'm glad we have it, but I've probably invested a few days in understanding all the ways it can go wrong and fixing it when it does.

Moral of the story: I like the idea if it can be kept simple and relatively fool proof (unlike all other software ever written).

PMFJI, but what if the "hacking" was done on the smugmug end, not the dgrin end? What if the smugmug comments were actually links to threads on dgrin?

Or maybe an additional option where the smugmug account holder could choose to create a thread on dgrin (the automatically-created first msg of which would include a link back to the gallery), and where a guest viewing the gallery could click a button to be sent to that dgrin thread. This could be just an additional option in the caption editing dialog, that would create the thread and insert the link into the caption.

Or, just an enhancement of the message editing dialog that would allow any guest to choose an option to create a link to a thread on dgrin - the dgrin thread would be created and a link to it would be inserted into the comment.

Assumption in all this is of course that a dgrin thread can be created "automagically" form the smugmug side.

-Gary aka muddyknees

rutt

muddyknees wrote:

PMFJI, but what if the "hacking" was done on the smugmug end, not the dgrin end? What if the smugmug comments were actually links to threads on dgrin?

Or maybe an additional option where the smugmug account holder could choose to create a thread on dgrin (the automatically-created first msg of which would include a link back to the gallery), and where a guest viewing the gallery could click a button to be sent to that dgrin thread. This could be just an additional option in the caption editing dialog, that would create the thread and insert the link into the caption.

Or, just an enhancement of the message editing dialog that would allow any guest to choose an option to create a link to a thread on dgrin - the dgrin thread would be created and a link to it would be inserted into the comment.

Assumption in all this is of course that a dgrin thread can be created "automagically" form the smugmug side.

-Gary aka muddyknees

What we really need is for Baldy to allow some access to the dgrin code. I think I could figure out a small self contained hack that could be installed and reinstalled after upgrades. If the software is well written, there is probably some provision for stuff like this.

Baldy

rutt wrote:

What we really need is for Baldy to allow some access to the dgrin code.

I'm not sure what you mean by access to dgrin code. dgrin is just vBulletin 3.03, and all the info to write hacks for it is on vbulletin.org. For the price of a vbulletin license (pretty cheap and we're happy to pay for it) you can install it on a test server and hack away until it's stable and people decide they like it.

Then it can be added to the live site and if it blows up in a production environment we can roll back.

rutt

Baldy wrote:

I'm not sure what you mean by access to dgrin code. dgrin is just vBulletin 3.03, and all the info to write hacks for it is on vbulletin.org. For the price of a vbulletin license (pretty cheap and we're happy to pay for it) you can install it on a test server and hack away until it's stable and people decide they like it.

Then it can be added to the live site and if it blows up in a production environment we can roll back.

Thanks, that's exactly the info I needed to know.

Baldy

muddyknees wrote:

Or maybe an additional option where the smugmug account holder could choose to create a thread on dgrin (the automatically-created first msg of which would include a link back to the gallery), and where a guest viewing the gallery could click a button to be sent to that dgrin thread. This could be just an additional option in the caption editing dialog, that would create the thread and insert the link into the caption.

Or, just an enhancement of the message editing dialog that would allow any guest to choose an option to create a link to a thread on dgrin - the dgrin thread would be created and a link to it would be inserted into the comment.

Assumption in all this is of course that a dgrin thread can be created "automagically" form the smugmug side.

-Gary aka muddyknees

Hey Gary,

These are pretty interesting thoughts. We'd like to create more awareness at smugmug about dgrin and the contests just for the love of photography. And we'd love more convenient integration to make it easier.