Since, I don't like it, I don't feel qualified to judge whether some practitioner of it is good at what they are doing or not
Your "Don't like" is totally wrong way, Duffy. Every item has own signs of professionalism and author's qualification. If you know that what about you trying to tell your audience, feel free to tell and judge. If your conclusions made just on your own "feelings" without any knowledgebase and experience, mark them as "imho" and try to understand why other commentators trying to correct your conclusions. Anyway, try to understand why you don't like this item and how author can correct this item to perfect.
Anyway, its much more useful than sitting in cut and keeping deathly silence. Regards.
Since, I don't like it, I don't feel qualified to judge whether some practitioner of it is good at what they are doing or not.
Duffy
Duffy, I am a photographer, my technical level is growing daily, but I know I still have LOTS to learn, and I know that my technique needs working on.
Having said that, I don't like that super digital photography-post processing stuff either, but that does not mean that I don't see that the guy we are talking about here is a master in his field.
If you look at his portraits, without the whistles and bells, you have to admitt that his exposure is spot on, the contrast is there, the detail... With that base he then adds his expertise to make their eyes come alive.
For me, a photographer or artist who can produce images with that kind of impact: that is a highly qualified arts man in my book.
It is not because I am not technically the strongest in photography, that I can not see wether another person is a good photographer or not...
There is a difference between liking and/or admitting that someone else is good in what he does.;o))))
Let's take my Dad. He absolutely hates Rock and Roll and always has. I wouldn't think about going to him to ask about who was a better guitar player: Steve Vai, Duane Allman, or Eddie Van Halen. He'd say it was all garbage.
I wouldn't ask someone who thinks rap is just noise whether they prefered Grandmaster Flash, Run DMC, Public Enemy, or one of the new kids like Ludacris.
That's the way it is for me with this sort of digital art. It all looks like dreck to me. Whatever technique is being used, its used in the name of bad taste. So I couldn't begin to tell you whether I thought someone was a master of it or not.
Mastery, for me, goes hand in hand with taste. It's simply not possible to divorce technique from art. And if I can't see the art in something, then I can't even begin to judge the techniques, because technique is just a means to an end.
Let's take my Dad. He absolutely hates Rock and Roll and always has. I wouldn't think about going to him to ask about who was a better guitar player: Steve Vai, Duane Allman, or Eddie Van Halen. He'd say it was all garbage.
I've heard him say why: it's just noise, the drums are relentless and lack any sophistication, there's no melody, the chord changes are simple-minded and stupid.
I can say much the same sorts of things about the overdone digital art (and fashion retouching) that I hate. And I think that I am right, but I admit the possibility that someday I might come to have an appreciation of this sort of thing -- precisely because I know that my dad is wrong about rock, and I know that others are wrong about rap. (In music, my true blind spot is the "new" country, which is everything my dad says rock is!)
The basic point is the same: if you don't appreciate the art at all, then you aren't in a position to judge mastery of it. When you have an appreciation (liking) of some form of art, you are then in a position to distinguish between the good and bad in that art form, and you might be able to intelligently discuss it. It's a different matter to try to distinguish between gradations of the repulsive and vulgar.
might be able to intelligently discuss it. Duffy[/QUOTE]
Why do I feel like a dummy now???? I thought we were having an intelligent discussion...
There is more then black and white, there is gray too! ;o)))))
Hey, Duffy, I've been in Dan's advanced class with Lee Varis as a fellow student. Please take it from me, Lee is a technical master, no matter what you think of the stuff on his web site. His post processing is consistently on a par with Dan's and sometimes better. This with the goal of making more believable images and decided by informal consensus of the class.
I believe you about his technical mastery in the craft of making pictures believable. I'm not surprised. I've glanced at his book Skin, and thought about picking it up. But that's not what's on the site. And I still believe that I can't really judge his competence with the techniques he uses to get those effects that I despise. If asked to pick between him and other overdone stuff that I despise, I would just throw my hands up in despair. (BTW, I think his contributions to the color theory list are very good for the most part and I have no doubt that his knowledge dwarfs mine. It's just kind of hard for me to square the book and his posts with the ridiculous stuff I see on his site.)
Let's take my Dad. He absolutely hates Rock and Roll and always has. I wouldn't think about going to him to ask about who was a better guitar player: Steve Vai, Duane Allman, or Eddie Van Halen. He'd say it was all garbage.
I wouldn't ask someone who thinks rap is just noise whether they prefered Grandmaster Flash, Run DMC, Public Enemy, or one of the new kids like Ludacris.
That's the way it is for me with this sort of digital art. It all looks like dreck to me. Whatever technique is being used, its used in the name of bad taste. So I couldn't begin to tell you whether I thought someone was a master of it or not.
Mastery, for me, goes hand in hand with taste. It's simply not possible to divorce technique from art. And if I can't see the art in something, then I can't even begin to judge the techniques, because technique is just a means to an end.
Duffy
That's a question? Duane Allman, no contest. And, here's one that'll but both those other two and everyone else you can think of, to shame!
Richard Thompson, one of the ten greatest guitar players EVER.
How far do we go? Wrong question. How far do you want to go would be more meaningful. I would hate to have some artificial limit placed on art. People who come up with interesting and novel ways of seeing and doing are seldom appreciated right away. Many thought Van Gogh went too far. But so what! What he created was pure gold and helped people see in new ways.
The thing to learn early is that you can't please everyone. Not everyone is going to be your client. So if you want to be an artist, you have to follow your inspiration and interests. Chasing the whims of the public is a sure map to mediocrity.
The only time you really need to temper that is when you are selling your art. You might have to moderate some of what you want to do in order to sell most efficiently, but you can still wield a fair amount of envelop pushing if you target the right clients. And if your goal is selling, then the current market will decide if you have gone too far. So let the feedback you get from your target audience help you decide how much to temper your direction.
Creator of Dgrin's "Last Photographer Standing" contest
"Failure is feedback. And feedback is the breakfast of champions." - fortune cookie
When I started the discussion with Edgework the eventually led to this thread, I had something else in mind than what we are discussing now. I was really thinking about flesh tones under interesting light or when people are working hard. I was wondering how much to do to bring those fleshdones back within the balance we use as guidlines: more yellow than magenta. Now that I've done so much ballet and faces in sunsets and outside in the cold, I have formed some ideas of what I like to do. I like to get some of the flesh more yelow than magenta with somewhat less cyan. But I like to show the light, the cold, the exertion, etc, by letting some flesh be outside these guidlines. I find it looks really wrong if no flesh is withing the guidlines, though.
See, I'm really a pretty concrete guy. This wasn't originally the big topic it became.
On that, doesn't it depend quite a bit on the specific picture. For example, if the shot shows a colored light source, then its much easier to have the color of that source distort the color of skin tones. I also think that, as a matter of convention, people are more open to warm tones in a sunset shot, and to bluish tones in a winter scene. And you could probably get away with exaggerating the greens in flourescent lighting if you shot on a subway platform.
On that, doesn't it depend quite a bit on the specific picture. For example, if the shot shows a colored light source, then its much easier to have the color of that source distort the color of skin tones. I also think that, as a matter of convention, people are more open to warm tones in a sunset shot, and to bluish tones in a winter scene. And you could probably get away with exaggerating the greens in flourescent lighting if you shot on a subway platform.
Comments
Your "Don't like" is totally wrong way, Duffy. Every item has own signs of professionalism and author's qualification. If you know that what about you trying to tell your audience, feel free to tell and judge. If your conclusions made just on your own "feelings" without any knowledgebase and experience, mark them as "imho" and try to understand why other commentators trying to correct your conclusions. Anyway, try to understand why you don't like this item and how author can correct this item to perfect.
Anyway, its much more useful than sitting in cut and keeping deathly silence. Regards.
Duffy
Duffy, I am a photographer, my technical level is growing daily, but I know I still have LOTS to learn, and I know that my technique needs working on.
Having said that, I don't like that super digital photography-post processing stuff either, but that does not mean that I don't see that the guy we are talking about here is a master in his field.
If you look at his portraits, without the whistles and bells, you have to admitt that his exposure is spot on, the contrast is there, the detail... With that base he then adds his expertise to make their eyes come alive.
For me, a photographer or artist who can produce images with that kind of impact: that is a highly qualified arts man in my book.
It is not because I am not technically the strongest in photography, that I can not see wether another person is a good photographer or not...
There is a difference between liking and/or admitting that someone else is good in what he does.;o))))
http://photocatseyes.net
http://www.zazzle.com/photocatseyes
I wouldn't ask someone who thinks rap is just noise whether they prefered Grandmaster Flash, Run DMC, Public Enemy, or one of the new kids like Ludacris.
That's the way it is for me with this sort of digital art. It all looks like dreck to me. Whatever technique is being used, its used in the name of bad taste. So I couldn't begin to tell you whether I thought someone was a master of it or not.
Mastery, for me, goes hand in hand with taste. It's simply not possible to divorce technique from art. And if I can't see the art in something, then I can't even begin to judge the techniques, because technique is just a means to an end.
Duffy
Try to ask him why
I can say much the same sorts of things about the overdone digital art (and fashion retouching) that I hate. And I think that I am right, but I admit the possibility that someday I might come to have an appreciation of this sort of thing -- precisely because I know that my dad is wrong about rock, and I know that others are wrong about rap. (In music, my true blind spot is the "new" country, which is everything my dad says rock is!)
The basic point is the same: if you don't appreciate the art at all, then you aren't in a position to judge mastery of it. When you have an appreciation (liking) of some form of art, you are then in a position to distinguish between the good and bad in that art form, and you might be able to intelligently discuss it. It's a different matter to try to distinguish between gradations of the repulsive and vulgar.
Duffy
Why do I feel like a dummy now???? I thought we were having an intelligent discussion...
There is more then black and white, there is gray too! ;o)))))
http://photocatseyes.net
http://www.zazzle.com/photocatseyes
I believe you about his technical mastery in the craft of making pictures believable. I'm not surprised. I've glanced at his book Skin, and thought about picking it up. But that's not what's on the site. And I still believe that I can't really judge his competence with the techniques he uses to get those effects that I despise. If asked to pick between him and other overdone stuff that I despise, I would just throw my hands up in despair. (BTW, I think his contributions to the color theory list are very good for the most part and I have no doubt that his knowledge dwarfs mine. It's just kind of hard for me to square the book and his posts with the ridiculous stuff I see on his site.)
Duffy
That's a question? Duane Allman, no contest. And, here's one that'll but both those other two and everyone else you can think of, to shame!
Richard Thompson, one of the ten greatest guitar players EVER.
http://blue-dog.smugmug.com
http://smile-123.smugmug.com
http://vintage-photos.blogspot.com/
Canon 7D, 100-400L, Mongoose 3.5, hoping for a 500L real soon.
The thing to learn early is that you can't please everyone. Not everyone is going to be your client. So if you want to be an artist, you have to follow your inspiration and interests. Chasing the whims of the public is a sure map to mediocrity.
The only time you really need to temper that is when you are selling your art. You might have to moderate some of what you want to do in order to sell most efficiently, but you can still wield a fair amount of envelop pushing if you target the right clients. And if your goal is selling, then the current market will decide if you have gone too far. So let the feedback you get from your target audience help you decide how much to temper your direction.
"Failure is feedback. And feedback is the breakfast of champions." - fortune cookie
See, I'm really a pretty concrete guy. This wasn't originally the big topic it became.
Duffy
Yes I came to that conclusion myself.