Entry level full frame?
I own the Canon SL1, and I really love it. I have the Tamron 2.8 17-50 on most of the time and I also have the nifty fifty and the 2.8 40stm (for video) to give you an idea of my budget. 
Until about a year ago, I have just been a hobbyist taking pictures of my family, then friends started asking if I would take their pictures.
Recently, my friend asked if I would take pictures of her in the hospital and document her "birth story". I used the above mentioned gear, and she was pleased with the images I got in low light, without flash. (No flash is a common request from moms in labor.) I was mostly pleased, except that they were a bit noisy. Many of the shots were either 1600 or 3200 ISO. The experience was incredible, and I honestly think I would love to get more experience and eventually specialize in birth photography.. But I would need to upgrade to a camera that could handle the low light better. I figure, I could keep my SL1 to use "everyday" and as a backup body.
I don't have a large budget, but I'd like to get a used full frame (and it could be an older model) to play around with and get some more experience. And.. bummer that my tamron won't attach, but I would still like to stick with Canon because that is what I am familiar with. The 50 will work on a full frame, correct? Any body recommendations? Do you happen to know the highest ISO I could go without significant grain?
Thanks in advance. Also If you are interested here is a selection of *modest* pictures I took at the birth: http://tiffanykeetch.smugmug.com/Portfolio/Olivias-Story
Until about a year ago, I have just been a hobbyist taking pictures of my family, then friends started asking if I would take their pictures.Recently, my friend asked if I would take pictures of her in the hospital and document her "birth story". I used the above mentioned gear, and she was pleased with the images I got in low light, without flash. (No flash is a common request from moms in labor.) I was mostly pleased, except that they were a bit noisy. Many of the shots were either 1600 or 3200 ISO. The experience was incredible, and I honestly think I would love to get more experience and eventually specialize in birth photography.. But I would need to upgrade to a camera that could handle the low light better. I figure, I could keep my SL1 to use "everyday" and as a backup body.
I don't have a large budget, but I'd like to get a used full frame (and it could be an older model) to play around with and get some more experience. And.. bummer that my tamron won't attach, but I would still like to stick with Canon because that is what I am familiar with. The 50 will work on a full frame, correct? Any body recommendations? Do you happen to know the highest ISO I could go without significant grain?
Thanks in advance. Also If you are interested here is a selection of *modest* pictures I took at the birth: http://tiffanykeetch.smugmug.com/Portfolio/Olivias-Story
0
Comments
I hope that you don't mind my using your first name since you didn't use it for this thread, but you did point us to your SmugMug site and your wonderful set of images. (Please do post some of the images in this thread because people should see your work, and because your work is worthy to be seen.)
Yes, if I understand you to have both the Canon EF 40mm f/2.8 STM and Canon EF 50mm f/1.8 (in any variant) they should both safely fit and fill the frame of a Canon 135 format Full-Frame (FF) body.
The Tamron SP AF 17-50mm f/2.8 XR Di LD IF (or version II) should also safely fit a FF body, but you are correct that it would not fill the frame, being designed for crop-frame bodies. Still, if you keep the Canon SL1 body it would continue to work in its normal fashion, and mounted on a FF body you might be surprised at the type of images produced. For instance, you could pull a 2:3 or a 3:2 crop from a FF image with the Tamron 17-50mm f/2.8 with around 7.5 MPix (enough for a very nice 8"x10" in either direction), but a square crop could yield closer to 9 MPix.
I'm not recommending that you use the Tamron 17-50mm f/2.8 as a regular companion for a FF body, only that you should explore the possibilities of when it might be desirable.
There are 3 - relatively modern Canon dSLRs that I can recommend that you should be able to find in either used or reconditioned condition:
The Canon EOS 5D Mark II. This is the oldest of my recommendations, but, until recently, my only Canon FF body. It does have a relatively poor AF section, but similar to that in your SL1. I don't believe that it has the same AF coverage in that you would find the AF "dots" more closely distributed in the center of the frame. Still, you can shoot with it and, adding a device with an AF-Assist patterned light, it does reasonably well even in poor light.
Next up is the Canon EOS 6D. Similarly, the AF section of the 6D is arguably the weakest part of the system, but this version is a bit more sensitive and will work approximately twice as well as the 5DMkII in really low light. This body is also current (you can buy them new) and the imager is very nice for both high-ISO noise and high-ISO color rendition. The shutter and mirror sections are not up to the standards of the 5DMkII so I recommend a body with fewer cycles for best service.
Finally, the 5D Mark III has a very nice AF section, giving some more options like active children at play, sports and action photography at almost any level. This is my current choice for FF body. While the imager and image processor are not quite as refined for high-ISO noise as the 6D, it's not far off and a much better camera overall. With proper RAW capture and Phase One Capture One Pro (my choice for image post-processing, especially with the Canon 5DMkII and 5DMkIII high-ISO RAW files), I can use ISO 3200 with excellent results and even ISO 6400 with reasonably complicated subject matter with very good results (simple subject matter at ISO fares better still).
None of these are particularly inexpensive, especially compared to your SL1, but none of the much older Canon FF bodies will give you the high-ISO advantages of these three models (and some of those are still relatively valuable).
Edit: For used equipment I recommend KEH, Adorama and B&H (no particular order, they're all great). I have also purchased used from Tallyn's Professional Photographic in Peoria, IL. Great to work with but just a smaller selection than the others mentioned.
Sadly, with FF lenses prices go up markedly for a quality standard/normal zoom, compared to your Tamron standard zoom. I still use a very old Canon 28-80mm, f2.8-f4L USM as my standard zoom, and I get excellent results on both the 5DMkII and 5DMkIII. Unfortunately I cannot recommend this lens because Canon no longer supports the lens. (It's that old.)
It is vital to purchase quality lenses and my own stock of lenses easily cost more than my stock of bodies.
The key to great image quality is (after great subject matter and scene): light (quality and direction), lens quality and then camera.
Shooting in ambient light alone is always risky; you are trusting "circumstances" to provide the most valuable component in your tool set. I highly recommend using external flash and with an appropriate flash modifier. It's extremely rare to find children who respond that poorly to properly used electronic flash. (That happened last year at a wedding reception, but the child did not get upset for very long and, with the parents' understanding and persistence, by the third round of attempts, over the course of a couple hours, the boy was tolerating the flash nicely and I got great results.)
Finally, my own granddaughter at around 2 months: (Canon 5DMkII, 28-80mmL, 2-studio strobes and 1-speedlite, ISO 100, 68mm, f/4, 1/200th, optical slave system)
The flash is all indirect, with the studio monolights (9" bowl only) pointed straight up for ceiling bounce and some spill onto the wall behind for fill. (The monolights were at different heights and the lower light was at higher power to provide 2-light key lighting.) The speedlite was a Canon 580EX into a DIY $3 "scoop" modifier, at lower power and mostly for fill and to trigger the monolights. Room lighting was mostly off and did not contribute.
Moderator of the Cameras and Accessories forums
Thank you so much for the prompt and thorough reply!
You confirmed what I had assumed - I'm going to need to start saving!
I hear you on shooting with flash. Until last year, I have had an aversion to "flash photography" but I found Neil van Niekirk's website and my eyes have been opened to what a flash is really capable of. Your photo of your granddaughter is beautiful! I am still learning the techniques of where to bounce the light to make it look the most natural. I would bring the flash in my bag on a birth photography shoot, but I think it would be left in the bag more often than not. The reaction of the baby is probably not even the highest reason for choosing to shoot without. Most moms have a "birth plan" including dim lights, soothing sounds, and similar contributions to aid in creating an environment where she can be the most relaxed. My goal was to be "a fly on the wall" - not doing anything that would cause a distraction for the mom, and also making sure not to get in the way of the birth attendants. Not quite like other events where the photographer can ask people to get out of the way of the shot, if you know what I mean. Not to mention any obstruction with studio lighting...
I thought of more questions, if you don't mind:
- Should I have a similarly equipped "back-up" camera? Or would it really be feasible to use my SL1? And if I did have to use the less capable back-up, would I discount the price?
- While I am building a portfolio, how should I go about pricing? A flat "portfolio building" rate, then jump to the prices I want to start? Raise my prices a bit after each session? Should I post prices on my website or have people call? Coming from a customer perspective, I don't like it when photographers don't have their prices listed. But I am not sure I would like it if they increased every time I checked either! Or I could add fine print that said something like, "each session will increase $x, so book now." Opinions?
And, because of your praise (thank you so much!):
There are arguments to having similar or even identical backup bodies - vs - FF & crop "systems" with some overlap.
Similar/identical bodies allow faster switchover when the worst happens, and the worst always happens when you're busy or frenzied, but you still have to have backup lenses too if you want to be instantaneous.
FF and crop body systems with both bodies already complete with suitable lenses means instant changes during the worst, "and" it means that you can have specialized setups when redundancy/backup isn't specifically needed (including other types of photography). I bet you can see what I use and recommend.
I have enough equipment now to build whatever works to handle particular problems. I should qualify that I don't do [hospital] delivery and newborn photography for the public, but I did newborn after delivery for both of my daughter's children, my grandchildren. Those were mixtures of external flash plus window light as appropriate.
For now, in your situation, I suggest keeping what you have and building the FF system gradually and strategically based on what you perceive as needs.
Have you reviewed your images and their respective EXIF to see what focal lengths you used and when you used different focal lengths? It's important to do this so you understand how you use your current system in order to plan purchases for a FF system.
---
No, I don't think that you need to price according to equipment used. I bet that your friend doesn't see the level of noise as you see it. She's probably just tickled to have quality images, and that's what should be your focus as well. Base your prices on the level of service you provide.
Image sharpness is much more important than high-ISO grain. I only saw a couple images where it looks like you had excess noise due to pushing the exposure in post. Do try to get the exposure right in the camera, regardless of the camera used. This improves with experience and confidence.
The big rule in marketing regarding pricing for services is that you can always price high and then adjust downward in the form of specials and discounts. Pro bono and "bottom feeding"* can help build a portfolio, but don't go public with prices until you know what the market will bear and where you stand in regard to other photographers. Any public pricing needs an ending date, or you can get locked in with low prices that are perpetual or open dated.
Please do remember that if you offer public/advertised prices that means "everyone gets the same price". You can not pick and choose your clients at that point.
Finding an unfulfilled "niche" market in your area and then excelling in that niche is the best way to succeed, IMHO. It's still going to take time and persistence so don't expect easy. The worst way to go is to compete in a saturated market, especially in this national economy. (Again, very much IMO.)
Competing with genuine skills and visible high quality will earn you word-of-mouth, but make sure that you also polish your communication skills and follow through with what you say you will do. Under promise and over deliver. A properly worded contract is a good thing for you and for the client.
No direct answers to your questions but we cannot know your market and your circumstances. You might want to explore small business marketing and small business management for more general guidance.
*(Yes, I hate that terminology too!)
Moderator of the Cameras and Accessories forums
Right now it's a bit weird in Canon DSLR's...if you go with say a 5D mkII you'll get better low light performance but your dynamic range will only increase slightly. The new 80D crop camera is an significant improvement over both of them and for your outdoor images this will be a big help. The other benefit is that many people are moving to FF bodies so used crop lenses are relatively cheap right now.
Also while the 80D wouldn't be as good in low light as the 5D mkII it should split the difference between it and your current SL1 so you'll see a nice improvement there as well. It would be slightly more money than a used 5D mkII from a good used site like KEH but since you wouldn't need a new normal zoom lens your total cost would be less.
Going for a budget setup I'd buy an 80D and maybe some used faster lenses like a 50 1.4 and other fast primes (or maybe even a Sigma 18-35 F1.8 though it isn't cheap). And keep your SL1 because having a second body always helps.
Then in a few years when you want to go FF the 80D will be much closer to those cameras ergonomically so it'll be an easier move.
Also what did you use for noise reduction on the B&W images that you posted? I have a Canon G1X which has a similar sensor to your SL1 (same basic technology though yours should be a bit better in terms noise all things being equal due to mine being cut down to 14MP and only using Digic 4 VS 5) and yours look a bit noisey to me though I'm comparing that to my images post processing. Here's an ISO 6400 shot from my Canon, noise reduction was done with Lightroom CC:
Now this shot has a relatively bright lighting source which helps, as does the contrast I added which minimized the more noisey shadows but I feel that your 2nd and 3rd shots should be a bit cleaner in terms of noise. Though they don't look too far off from being straight out of the camera so there might be room for improvement even with your current body.
instead of buying used look at a refurbished full frame 6D
- those maternity/birth pics from the Rebel SL1 look good
It had 33 shots taken with it.
It has about 20,000 now.
It's a great camera.
Basking in the shadows of yesterday's triumphs'.
this is the site to check for these deals:
http://www.canonpricewatch.com/canon-refurb-stock-tracker/
"You miss 100% of the shots you don't take" - Wayne Gretzky
My Photography Blog.
My Popular Photos
- Photos of Edinburgh, Scottish Highlands and Islands, Fife.
I have been using my 5D mark II since 2011. There have been quite a few upgrades since then, but I haven't felt the need to lay out the money for a new body- I am still satisfied with the images it produces, more than satisfied, really. (although I would like better ISO and better AF, I always think about the lenses and plane tickets that $3500 could buy, and decide it isn't worth it.) I have no idea how many actuations the shutter has, but I have used, abused, and beaten the crap out of it for more than half a decade, and it still works great.
yes, the refurbished 6D is great value / performance
(but I've gone crop mirrorless)
flickr.com/photos/mmirrorless