The Over/Under - notes on Sports Spec Shooting
Ok gang... this post is more for those lurkers and not so much for you old salts... I know those with experience will be rolling your eyes with the tell tale "told you so" under your breath :rolleyes :rofl
For those who fancy yourself quite the sports action shooter and say, "I could do better that this crud" when looking at your kids big-box sports action photos..... here's the scoop - from my try at shooting sports on spec.
In case you haven't seen my earlier posts regarding my foray into this ordeal, here is a brief note for context.
When my daughters league decided to move away from the big box photo company and hired the T/I (Team & Individual) photographer, he said no to Sports Action. I know the board member in charge of photography from work who asked and I said yes......
Ok, there is 31 teams with about 365 girls on the league.... I decided that being in the PNW and being a one man band, I would not wait to shoot all my shots during playoff weekend. I decided to shoot throughout the season to ensure getting to every team at least twice and the older ones more than 4 times.....
I started the season buying a new camera and lens as my old set didn't make it and finally broke down on my during the first weekend. It was an 8 year old set, so.....
I shot all 31 teams, printed my shots at Costco as I have no printer myself and was glad that I didn't try to squeeze in my shooting in one weekend as there was crappy weather and cancellations for rain...
- I roughly :deal calculated that I spent 230 hours traveling, taking, editing, processing, printing and selling my photo's.
- I spent a total of $1000 printing photo's (mostly 5x7's and some few 8x10)
- I sold (too cheaply by a smidge) 5x7's for $5 and 8x10's for $9. Point of reference here, the big box guys are charging $10.95 for 1 5x7 and $15.95 for 2 5x7's, so I should have priced at $7 or $8.....
- I offered no volume discounts to anybody... not even in the last 5 minutes of the last sale day to a board member (whom I reckon waited till last minute just to get a deal!), I just stated that the prices were set too low for any discounts.
- I cleared a total of $2681 from direct (cash/card) sales and any online sale profits (I had more than I am used to for a nice surprise). for a total net profit of $ 1681
- So, all in all, I made just over $7 an hour for my time and efforts.
When you ask yourself if it would be worth it to try this, you need to know what to expect - and there is plenty of wise advice from senior members and experienced shooters here....
I have been on the run pretty much every weeknight and most Saturdays catching games (some of which were real snoozers). I have spent most evenings up till midnight or 1 am editing and posting to my website just to get up at 6:30 for my regular work day.
I have spent grueling hours in the sun explaining to little Suzies mother why there were only 2 shots of her daughter who was butterfly hunting or picking her nose instead of being a star player......
I have had to tell teenage girls by the score not to take a photo of their photograph with their cell phone
I have explained to a million parents why I am not offering volume discouts.
While I shot many of my daughters game to consequently get the other teams in her age bracket, I did miss a couple as well as most of her playoff games....
I am spending all my profit on my wife to show her how much I appreciate all of her patience for allowing me to run after this gig and deal with all this crap for a few bucks when I could have been relaxing on the couch next to her each evening......
So, do you really want to break your teeth on being "THE" action photographer for your kids league.....? If so, then welcome to the club.....sucker! :thumb
I had a blast doing it and really loved it.... I will probably do it next year also.
I also had the board of the league ask me to be the Team and Individual photographer for next season. I have intelligently not committed to that yet and will be consulting with a fellow who did this several years ago for this league before moving away for a while....... now that he's back, I can at least get his advice to be successful.......:wink
And that ladies and germs is my experience and outcome of shooting sports on speculation. Thank you for all the advice who gave it, particularly both John's and Jack, I really appreciated your input.
Lee
For those who fancy yourself quite the sports action shooter and say, "I could do better that this crud" when looking at your kids big-box sports action photos..... here's the scoop - from my try at shooting sports on spec.
In case you haven't seen my earlier posts regarding my foray into this ordeal, here is a brief note for context.
When my daughters league decided to move away from the big box photo company and hired the T/I (Team & Individual) photographer, he said no to Sports Action. I know the board member in charge of photography from work who asked and I said yes......
Ok, there is 31 teams with about 365 girls on the league.... I decided that being in the PNW and being a one man band, I would not wait to shoot all my shots during playoff weekend. I decided to shoot throughout the season to ensure getting to every team at least twice and the older ones more than 4 times.....
I started the season buying a new camera and lens as my old set didn't make it and finally broke down on my during the first weekend. It was an 8 year old set, so.....
I shot all 31 teams, printed my shots at Costco as I have no printer myself and was glad that I didn't try to squeeze in my shooting in one weekend as there was crappy weather and cancellations for rain...
- I roughly :deal calculated that I spent 230 hours traveling, taking, editing, processing, printing and selling my photo's.
- I spent a total of $1000 printing photo's (mostly 5x7's and some few 8x10)
- I sold (too cheaply by a smidge) 5x7's for $5 and 8x10's for $9. Point of reference here, the big box guys are charging $10.95 for 1 5x7 and $15.95 for 2 5x7's, so I should have priced at $7 or $8.....
- I offered no volume discounts to anybody... not even in the last 5 minutes of the last sale day to a board member (whom I reckon waited till last minute just to get a deal!), I just stated that the prices were set too low for any discounts.
- I cleared a total of $2681 from direct (cash/card) sales and any online sale profits (I had more than I am used to for a nice surprise). for a total net profit of $ 1681
- So, all in all, I made just over $7 an hour for my time and efforts.
When you ask yourself if it would be worth it to try this, you need to know what to expect - and there is plenty of wise advice from senior members and experienced shooters here....
I have been on the run pretty much every weeknight and most Saturdays catching games (some of which were real snoozers). I have spent most evenings up till midnight or 1 am editing and posting to my website just to get up at 6:30 for my regular work day.
I have spent grueling hours in the sun explaining to little Suzies mother why there were only 2 shots of her daughter who was butterfly hunting or picking her nose instead of being a star player......
I have had to tell teenage girls by the score not to take a photo of their photograph with their cell phone
I have explained to a million parents why I am not offering volume discouts.
While I shot many of my daughters game to consequently get the other teams in her age bracket, I did miss a couple as well as most of her playoff games....
I am spending all my profit on my wife to show her how much I appreciate all of her patience for allowing me to run after this gig and deal with all this crap for a few bucks when I could have been relaxing on the couch next to her each evening......
So, do you really want to break your teeth on being "THE" action photographer for your kids league.....? If so, then welcome to the club.....sucker! :thumb
I had a blast doing it and really loved it.... I will probably do it next year also.
I also had the board of the league ask me to be the Team and Individual photographer for next season. I have intelligently not committed to that yet and will be consulting with a fellow who did this several years ago for this league before moving away for a while....... now that he's back, I can at least get his advice to be successful.......:wink
And that ladies and germs is my experience and outcome of shooting sports on speculation. Thank you for all the advice who gave it, particularly both John's and Jack, I really appreciated your input.
Lee
Lee Wiren
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Comments
If there's a take-home from all this, it's that people aren't willing to pay for individual images anymore; and most people can't tell a lousy image from a really good one (e.g. taking a shot of a printed image with a cell phone camera). The combination means that it's close to impossible to make a living from this model.
I don't shoot youth sports for money, with a couple of exceptions that were fundraisers for my daughter's soccer team (netting about $3-4K for a weekend), but I have shot close to 20,000 images for my daughter's teams over the years and have talked with a number of people who do this for money. Here are two models that seem to work for them:
1. Charge a straight assignment fee: I've only seen this at high level events, like national championships, but for $500 or so up front, the team gets a game fully covered and rights to all the images in digital form (the preferred format these days). Any additional printing is up to the team, players and parents. It seems they are getting 6-8 games per photographer per weekend tournament, so that translates into $3-$4K per weekend, with the only additional time spent on editing. I don't know if this would work for lesser tournaments--I suspect that parents may only be willing to pay to memorialize a major milestone in their kids' lives--but I managed to make about the same for relatively unimportant tournaments, though I should say that the team and parents vigorously promoted my work.
2. Shoot, print and sell right at the event: As of a year or two ago, this was still being done. (My daughter left for college last year so I don't go to tournaments anymore.) It does require a whole team of card runners, editors, and people to staff the display and printing booths. I don't know how much they make from it, but I was asked on several occasions if I'd be interested in doing this. (I said no, without even asking about the day rate.) The images mostly suck, but parents are still willing to pay for a pic of their kid on the field in uniform, maybe even with a ball.
Lastly, I'll just say that I used to get asked by the local schools to shoot various games for them. The requests stopped coming in because I always said I was too busy. I don't think there's a lot to be made here, but some of the shooters I recommended seemed to be happy enough with the pay to do the events.
Like any business environment, it's up to the vendor to find a business model that works. Too often I see photographers pushing the old models when it is clear they're just not viable. A telltale sign is when you find yourself telling the potential customer what he or she SHOULD want, rather than what they're asking for. I wouldn't go so far as to say there's no business here, just that one needs to develop models that work. And the only models I see working right now involve creating a reputation for one's work (e.g. by shooting professional sports, which seems to be quite a draw), charging a flat rate for your services instead of nickel and diming for each image, constantly hustling to get people signed up, and delivering a consistently good product really fast. Here's a colleague who seems to be doing well with this model: http://www.klcfotos.com/
Just my $0.02's worth...
John
I could dream, as I'm sure so many do, that you could get paid to shoot the league, do all the shooting, post the images and let folks download what they want and make enough to be worth it.
The inherent problem is that all photographers who do make money at this have proven that the way to do it is to set a price on a PRINT and sell as many of those as you can. It's not just sports, but pretty much every type of photography.
In the expanding computerized and social media demon world we are in now, I am not convinced that this is the best model any longer, but the thought of setting a price you are willing to live with and provide digital copy downloads only is like going against the grain....
That being said, as digitized as our culture is now, it amazes me how disinterested folks are about looking at a website or spending much time on it and how ignorant folks are (or pretend to be) about buying something from a website, no matter how easy you make it.
I would love to have the league add on $30 per child to the registration fees and have that provide the Team and Individual image as well as any action shot that could be gotten... then the pro would have to live on how well the images he could produce are, not just chuck out cruddy images that were pre-paid for.
I know the league for my daughters sport is usually about 350 - 375 children each year... at $30 per kid, that allows $10,500 - $11,250... the league usually asks for some money (ours is about 1k) in kickback fees..... with this model, there is no money out for printing fees to the photographer and less stress..... shoot, upload, free download for a limited time (3 months....?). Anyways....dreams.
Thanks for the input.
Lee
And regarding the print model, I have thousands of images of my daughter playing soccer. There are just two actual prints hanging on my walls.
Honestly, I have no idea if there's a viable business model for youth sports photography; I don't do it so my knowledge is very limited. What I do know is that all my colleagues who shoot high school sports for profit also shoot college and professional sports, and spend a lot of time cultivating relationships with local schools and leagues. In addition, they don't really have to argue for their abilities based only on their portfolios. They have the cache of shooting for large media outlets and can show portfolios of big name professional athletes and tear sheets from high profile magazines and newspapers. If I had to guess, this imprimatur goes a long way to convincing clients to buy their services.
Youth sports photography is not a way to make a living unless you're just doing boring T&I for multiple leagues in addition to other photo business. That said, the action shots are fun to take and sell, and people do appreciate them. As a side business, shooting T&I and action for just one Little League (my town) for 5 years made me enough money to pay for all my gear and then some. It has also led to other photo business like senior portraits, family portraits, business portraits, and real estate. I'm glad I did it.
Now I will only shoot on spec if it's my kids' teams or a game I'm interested in seeing anyway. Otherwise, I want an up-front fee. I've been able to parlay my Little League experience into getting paid up front to be the official action photographer for the High School Football team, and shooting the High School Baseball team's senior day and regional and state championships (HS Baseball has a small budget, Football's is significantly bigger), and for a regional soccer tournament.
I'm actually going to throw my hat back into the ring for my town's Little League baseball/softball photos again next year after 2 years off because the T&I photos we've had done the past 2 years by another local pro haven't been up to my expectations. But I'm not going to chase the action shot business this time. The thrill is gone for doing that for every team. If someone wants action shots, they can hire me. For the T&I I think I will require a $2 per player fee just to show up (about $800-$900), and then a $15 optional pre-order which will get the parent a $20 coupon to spend in my SmugMug gallery. So if someone pre-orders the coupon, I will take an individual portrait of their kid, otherwise they can just buy the team shot.
An "accurate" reproduction of a scene and a good photograph are often two different things.
If you liked shooting sports and had a blast with your daughter in the league then $7/hour is probably worth it.
A former sports shooter
Follow me at: https://www.flickr.com/photos/bjurasz/
My Etsy store: https://www.etsy.com/shop/mercphoto?ref=hdr_shop_menu
I hear ya but I see no need to discourage print sales. I offer downloads right alongside prints in my pro SmugMug gallery, and prints outsell downloads at least 50 to 1. But I wonder if you really meant that you would not sell print packages. I don't do that either. So last century. I just sell coupons, like pay me $15, get a $20 coupon to spend in my gallery on whatever.
An "accurate" reproduction of a scene and a good photograph are often two different things.
I'm hearing you on this one, I was just arguing this model with my wife... I was thinking of telling the league that if I do T/I & Action, then they should charge players $30 extra in registration fees, give it to me less 10% in kick back fees and then I would create team galleries and allow downloads...... but let's flesh out what Jack is saying here.......
So Jack....., tell us more oh Grand Poobah....
You need a SmugMug pro account to issue coupons. I don't know if other services like ZenFolio have this. So I would sell a $20 coupon for $15. SmugMug doesn't provide a mechanism to sell coupons, so you have to set that up yourself. It's easy to do this by setting up a web page with PayPal buttons, and then you direct people to that page to place their order. Your SmugMug account can host this page, and make it easy to create. As each PayPal order comes in, you create a coupon code and email it to the customer. They will then use that code when placing their order in your gallery. They can order more than $20 worth of stuff of course, the coupon is just a "store credit". You can also sell different coupons for different amounts.
This accomplishes several things - it creates a sense of urgency because you advertise that you will only take individual portraits and action shots of the kids whose parents pre-buy a coupon, and because pre-buying the coupon gives them a discount. (It's hard to not take action shots of every kid, but they don't need to know that) It also practically locks them in to buying something. I never had a parent ask for their money back. Also importantly, it frees you from the stress of selling on spec. You can stop obtrusively watermarking your images in favor of a tasteful logo in the corner, and you can allow right-clicks, because you already have their money. You can even let parents take pics over your shoulder with their phone or whatever, and it doesn't matter! Picture day is so much less stressful this way.
Some number of parents will simply miss or blow off the pre-buy thing and ask you take their kid's individual portrait on picture day anyway. For these people I would charge $20 and tell them they'll get a coupon for a $20 credit. Get their email address to do this.
An "accurate" reproduction of a scene and a good photograph are often two different things.
An "accurate" reproduction of a scene and a good photograph are often two different things.
I kind of hear what you're saying, but will need to run a "test" to see it in action to really get the feel of what you're describing here with this PP button page coupon model thingy.... sounds like a great big PITA to get set up, and process through..... and it sounds easy to have it all go FUBAR on a person..... but as I am a visual person, I will try to use your description and create a model to run through on my own as a test.... thanks for describing how it works..... do you have a page on your site with the buttons already that I can see for example?
I could certainly wish there was an easier way... I could always ask for pre-pay and then create a personal gallery for just that player allowing only that person to download... that almost seems easier than the set up of the PP button page model......, but then I guess it would be too hard to get individual action shots sorted out..... at that point, it would be easier to just print the damn things...
Oy! I was trying to explain to the wife why paying an additional $30 would benefit everybody instead of just myself and why it didn't make me a greedy b*****d........ We all know even those folks that "saaaaaayyyy" they don't want or care about photo's like to look and hemm and haw over them..... unlimited download from prepaid registration fees to me makes sooooo much sense, but you're right, folks just wouldn't go for it.
http://falmouthlittleleague.net/bob-marley-comedy-night/
It's really easy. Setting up individual galleries for each player would be about 400x more work.
An "accurate" reproduction of a scene and a good photograph are often two different things.
Interesting. Last time I did amateur motorsports I sold almost nothing but CDs. A few individual digital files, a few prints. But 90% CDs. That would be all images of your car for the day.
A former sports shooter
Follow me at: https://www.flickr.com/photos/bjurasz/
My Etsy store: https://www.etsy.com/shop/mercphoto?ref=hdr_shop_menu
Unfortunately trying to determine 1 child out of 14 who are all the same size and similar looks isn't always easy when they are in the act of the sport.... I tried to separate the images this time for 200 children and was told that while some I did right, others I sucked at.... some were mad that I didn't get it right...sheesh... tough crowd!
Thanks Jack, i'll check it out....
Were you producing and delivering the CDs on site? I'm not set up for that. I suppose if SmugMug allowed the customer to choose a number of photos and download them for a bulk price, my download sales might catch up to or overtake print sales. As it is, they can buy a download of a single image or an entire gallery. My single image prices for youth sports are $5.95 for "low res" 1mp, $15 for "high res" 4mp, and $25 for original.
An "accurate" reproduction of a scene and a good photograph are often two different things.
Interesting.... I set my download prices at $10 for a Web Size, $20 for 1Mpix, $50 for 4Mpix and $100 for the original file.......maybe I should check myself.... am I being greedy.....??
I convinced myself that at $20 for them to have an image that will make decent prints at 8x10 size and can have a gazillion prints made if wanted that $20 was cheap at twice the price..... I sold one of them at that price..... a couple web sized sizes..... hmmmmmm now I just feel greedy.
An "accurate" reproduction of a scene and a good photograph are often two different things.
I really doubt I'd sell any more than I already do at any price... that would require people to click the "BUY" button..... folks are quite intelligent until they get to that point, then they suddenly gain a cognitive disability or something....
I know I may never sell much at those prices, but I don't want to undervalue a digital print either. What are you selling your paper 5x7 prints for... I would be surprised if it's only 5.95 each. If you are selling a paper 5x7 for $10 (give or take) then why would you ask for less in a digital print? Especially when that digital print potentially could be shared with two (or more) sets of grandparents, aunts & uncles and a whole host of Facebook friends......?
I know I'm no price model expert, but I don't think I'm way too out on a limb.... may I am, and will figure it out someday...... always fun to learn and figure out a process, it helps with constructive collaboration like this thread is giving, so thanks again for the help.
I based my download prices off of a very accomplished veteran pro racetrack photog from whom I bought two full res originals of myself for $20 each back in 2008. They were 8mp, from a 1D2N.
Just remember we're talking about youth sports, not fine art.
An "accurate" reproduction of a scene and a good photograph are often two different things.
Maybe...., maybe. But this isn't 2008 anymore. I'll concede that I probably have my prices for download set too high, but I'm still thinking the normal print size of the download should match the paper print size for continuity.
I'm looking at prices here in the PNW, the big box guys are charging $11.95 for 5x7's. Another local small timer who did t/i and action for the league a few years back (and hired me to help) was charging $7 for5x7's....., so my $5 was cheap and my download is high.... I'll rework that someday soon.
An "accurate" reproduction of a scene and a good photograph are often two different things.
Not on site, all web based. I had an Exposure Manager account at the time specifically due to the limitations of Smug Mug that you site above. And regarding your earlier post, I can see how identifying and grouping cars would be far easier than kiddos.
A former sports shooter
Follow me at: https://www.flickr.com/photos/bjurasz/
My Etsy store: https://www.etsy.com/shop/mercphoto?ref=hdr_shop_menu
Let me just add the following to people considering doing this. Especially people with families. Once you go beyond your children's team, now you're spending more time away from your family. Just a caution - don't let your hobby interfere too much with your family. Yes, you may enjoy your hobby very much. But you can't get that time back. Sports shooting takes a lot of time. If you'd rather spend your evenings and weekends doing that when it isn't your child's team, you might want to consider the impact to your family. I'm not trying to pass judgement - just giving people considering doing this something else to think about. A parent/spouse that works two jobs adds a lot of stress to a family - when they do it because the "want to" instead of because they "need to", how do you think the family thinks about where they fit in the hobbyists priorities? Again, I assume everyone that has been doing this is perfectly O.K. with their family. Some people are retired and it's a way to keep busy. There are all sorts of legitimate scenarios. But, for people with spouses and kids and who already have a full time job, you might want to think about the time commitment and make sure your spouse and family are on board with your hobby taking up that much of your time.
An "accurate" reproduction of a scene and a good photograph are often two different things.
An "accurate" reproduction of a scene and a good photograph are often two different things.
A former sports shooter
Follow me at: https://www.flickr.com/photos/bjurasz/
My Etsy store: https://www.etsy.com/shop/mercphoto?ref=hdr_shop_menu
I like that, but it would require coordination effort by the team. I wonder which would get more takers, that, or individual parents hiring me to get action shots of just their kid for like $40. Maybe I'd offer both. Maybe a scheme like $40 per kid, or $200 for the whole team, or $300 to shoot two teams playing against each other. Hmmmmmmm....
An "accurate" reproduction of a scene and a good photograph are often two different things.