Flashcard issues

divamumdivamum Registered Users Posts: 9,021 Major grins
edited December 1, 2016 in Cameras
Ok, this has now happened twice, so it's more than bad luck.

A few weeks ago, I used two of my never-given-me-any-trouble Transcend compact flash cards to record video. No problem.

Next (still) shoot, the cards could not be read - I knew the images were there, as I reviewed them in camera during the session, but even the camera couldn't read them when I reinserted the cards after the fact. I thankfully managed to recover the images using Transcend software. Phew.

Formatted the cards in advance of today's shoot. No problem during today's session when, again, I reviewed them during the session (so I know they recorded). Get them home and.... card reader is now telling me not only that it can't read them, but the cards must be FORMATTED.

Am currently running recovery software again (trial version of Sandisk Rescue, since Transcend's software- that worked last time - is now crashing) - it has found them, but I now realise I have to buy it to save them. Sigh. I need to figure out what's going on. Other cards are reading fine, it's just these two (both Transcend, and both were used for the video session). Do I just toss them and hope it never happens again, or....?

Aargh. Too tired and too busy for this.
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Comments

  • ziggy53ziggy53 Super Moderators Posts: 24,145 moderator
    edited October 10, 2016
    What is your exact workflow?
    Operating system?
    Especially, what are you using to retrieve the files from the card onto the computer?
    ziggy53
    Moderator of the Cameras and Accessories forums
  • divamumdivamum Registered Users Posts: 9,021 Major grins
    edited October 10, 2016
    Lexus pro card reader. It has never given me any trouble, and all other cards (both CF and SD) are reading fine. It's only these two cards that got used for video in the 5d3. It's like their indexing structure has died or something, despite formatting.

    Thankfully, all but three files were retrieved, but I obviously want to figure out what's going on.

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  • ziggy53ziggy53 Super Moderators Posts: 24,145 moderator
    edited October 10, 2016
    What methodology for transferring the files from the card reader to the computer? Please be exact and relate the software and procedure used.

    What OS?
    ziggy53
    Moderator of the Cameras and Accessories forums
  • divamumdivamum Registered Users Posts: 9,021 Major grins
    edited October 10, 2016
    Remove card from camera (I even went so far as to turn camera off first when swapping cards and removing, just in case)
    Insert card in reader
    Import via LR into subdirectory (no processing applied)
    Done.

    Seriously, it has been the most consistent and stable part of my workflow for years, but something about recording that video seems to have rocked the boat. I mean, I'm ok tossing these cards if necessary (they're a few years old, although have worked flawlessly until now). Now that I've retrieved the files I may try formatting them a few times in-camera to see if that cleans them up, but I really want to learn *why* this has happened (if there's a "why") so I can avoid it ever happening again!! :)
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  • ziggy53ziggy53 Super Moderators Posts: 24,145 moderator
    edited October 10, 2016
    Twice I've asked which operating system?

    If Windows 7, use Windows Explorer to copy the files from the card to the computer first, then import the directory(ies) into Lightroom. If later than Windows 7 (Win 8, 8.1, 10) you can try File Explorer instead. (Basically the same thing.)

    If Mac OSX, someone with Mac experience should answer.

    The version of Lightroom can also matter, so which version of Lightroom are you using?

    Please do answer my questions as they directly impact accurate answers.
    ziggy53
    Moderator of the Cameras and Accessories forums
  • divamumdivamum Registered Users Posts: 9,021 Major grins
    edited October 10, 2016
    Sorry! I'm multitasking and keep getting interrupted and thus not reading properly - apologies. Windows 10. Accessing the cards through Explorer also gave me error messages , the most recent one saying that the card needed to be formatted before it could be read. So the computer acknowledges that they are there, but can't read them.

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  • divamumdivamum Registered Users Posts: 9,021 Major grins
    edited October 10, 2016
    I I'm no longer at home so I can't double check which exact version of Lightroom it is. It is either 5 or 6. It's the last one which came as a standalone product instead of part of Creative Cloud

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  • ziggy53ziggy53 Super Moderators Posts: 24,145 moderator
    edited October 10, 2016
    divamum wrote: »
    Lexus pro card reader. ...

    Is it the "Lexar Professional USB 3.0 Dual-Slot Reader (with UDMA 7 compatibility)"? Please check the bottom of the reader for model number if unsure.
    ziggy53
    Moderator of the Cameras and Accessories forums
  • divamumdivamum Registered Users Posts: 9,021 Major grins
    edited October 10, 2016
    I am now out for the day so I can't look these things up. I will check when I get home, so I don't impinge more on your help without giving you the information you need! Thanks, as always :-)

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  • ziggy53ziggy53 Super Moderators Posts: 24,145 moderator
    edited October 10, 2016
    divamum wrote: »
    ... Windows 10. Accessing the cards through Explorer also gave me error messages , the most recent one saying that the card needed to be formatted before it could be read. So the computer acknowledges that they are there, but can't read them.

    Bingo! You are getting errors using both File Explorer and Lightroom for transfer to the computer. That's significant.

    Basic card compatibility could be part of the problem; i.e. a UDMA 7 card needs a UDMA 7 compatible reader. Likewise, a non-UDMA 7 card really should use a non-UDMA 7 reader. (Sometimes mixing things up can work, but not always.)

    If Lightroom 6 you should upgrade to Lightroom 6.4, the last version before Lightroom CC.

    I would not discount Windows 10 as a culprit too.

    The first thing I suggest doing is trying another computer with an earlier OS, but the same hardware and software version. Since you seem to have had success before, something has changed but we need to rule out some possibilities, one-by-one, before we can know the true cause.
    ziggy53
    Moderator of the Cameras and Accessories forums
  • ziggy53ziggy53 Super Moderators Posts: 24,145 moderator
    edited October 10, 2016
    divamum wrote: »
    I am now out for the day so I can't look these things up. I will check when I get home, so I don't impinge more on your help without giving you the information you need! Thanks, as always :-)

    Sent from my HTC One M9 using Tapatalk

    Sure, no problem.

    Best
    ziggy53
    Moderator of the Cameras and Accessories forums
  • divamumdivamum Registered Users Posts: 9,021 Major grins
    edited October 10, 2016
    LR 5.7.1
    Lexar Pro USB 3 Dual Slot Reader
    Transcend 133x compact flash cards (probably 3 years old?)
    OS Win 10, but until this started, cards have functioned perfectly in both Win 7 (prior computer, replaced last March, as well aas the current Win 10 unit)


    Again, these cards have been working PERFECTLY until I re-used them following the video session (no problem getting the vids off them - they were fine). Vids were also transferred via the Lexar reader into LR, and Quicktime was installed to run them (as per LR prompt). Now, neither computer nor camera will read them, although SanDisk pro recovered the data (thank goodness! There were six mini-sessions on them from yesterday, which would have been a nightmare if they'd been lost!).

    Hope I got everything this time! :)
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  • ziggy53ziggy53 Super Moderators Posts: 24,145 moderator
    edited October 10, 2016
    Were the cards ever completely full, to the point of stopping to record further?
    ziggy53
    Moderator of the Cameras and Accessories forums
  • divamumdivamum Registered Users Posts: 9,021 Major grins
    edited October 10, 2016
    Yes, often! :) I keep going until they're full during a session, at which point I swap them for a freshly formatted one. If it's between sessions, I may sometimes forget to format and start fresh, but will just keep shooting until they stop being able to take any more data.
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  • ziggy53ziggy53 Super Moderators Posts: 24,145 moderator
    edited October 10, 2016
    divamum wrote: »
    Yes, often! :) I keep going until they're full during a session, at which point I swap them for a freshly formatted one. If it's between sessions, I may sometimes forget to format and start fresh, but will just keep shooting until they stop being able to take any more data.

    I highly recommend not doing that. The reason is that flash memory uses 2 controllers (or 1 controller with 2 algorithms), compared to one for a hard drive. One controller works much like the hard drive controller (using logical block addresses, LBAs), but there is also a "wear leveling" controller which tries to equalize the number of writes to the card blocks/sectors. When you constantly load a flash card to capacity the leveling controller may not properly report the remaining capacity of the card, resulting in card corruption.

    I never load a card more than 80-85 percent full for this reason, except accidentally. Video is more difficult to gauge so I use a very conservative number of minutes per card, based on the number of recorded minutes as well as ISO noise factor.
    ziggy53
    Moderator of the Cameras and Accessories forums
  • ziggy53ziggy53 Super Moderators Posts: 24,145 moderator
    edited October 10, 2016
    Replies in bold:
    divamum wrote: »
    LR 5.7.1
    Strongly recommend LR version 6.4 for Windows 10.

    Lexar Pro USB 3 Dual Slot Reader
    Canon 5D3 and this reader supports UDMA 7 so I recommend UDMA 7 cards as well. UDMA 7 cards should provide better timing for the write process overall and the read process should be much faster.

    Transcend 133x compact flash cards (probably 3 years old?)
    These are UDMA 4 cards. UDMA 7 should be much better overall, but may not affect data integrity problems.

    OS Win 10, but until this started, cards have functioned perfectly in both Win 7 (prior computer, replaced last March, as well aas the current Win 10 unit)
    Still, if you could test the entire process and methodology on a previous OS that might be telling and diagnostic.


    Again, these cards have been working PERFECTLY until I re-used them following the video session (no problem getting the vids off them - they were fine). Vids were also transferred via the Lexar reader into LR, and Quicktime was installed to run them (as per LR prompt). Now, neither computer nor camera will read them, although SanDisk pro recovered the data (thank goodness! There were six mini-sessions on them from yesterday, which would have been a nightmare if they'd been lost!).

    Hope I got everything this time! :)

    If iTunes was installed I recommend disabling or de-installing as a test. I refuse to use iTunes on any Windows machines after a series of baffling conflicts which were resolved by removing iTunes.

    I should mention that I just had problems with a Windows 10 machine yesterday (Sunday) at church and my Transcend USB 3, SD card reader. It appears that Windows 10 was trying to compress the video files from the computer onto the card.

    Today (Monday) I had to put a video file back on the machine and there were no issues with that, but I did have the SD card write protect set.

    It's not my machine so not much I can do about the problem there. I do wonder if something similar might be occurring on your machine? (Just thinking out loud. I doubt that there is a correlation.)
    ziggy53
    Moderator of the Cameras and Accessories forums
  • divamumdivamum Registered Users Posts: 9,021 Major grins
    edited October 10, 2016
    No iTunes. Ever. I'm the most anti-Macintologist person on the planet :)

    I'll look into the other matters. I'm also going to format, re-format, and re-formate, and then do some test shots.

    And order some new flashcards!!!
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  • divamumdivamum Registered Users Posts: 9,021 Major grins
    edited October 11, 2016
    ziggy53 wrote: »
    I highly recommend not doing that. The reason is that flash memory uses 2 controllers (or 1 controller with 2 algorithms), compared to one for a hard drive. One controller works much like the hard drive controller (using logical block addresses, LBAs), but there is also a "wear leveling" controller which tries to equalize the number of writes to the card blocks/sectors. When you constantly load a flash card to capacity the leveling controller may not properly report the remaining capacity of the card, resulting in card corruption.

    I never load a card more than 80-85 percent full for this reason, except accidentally. Video is more difficult to gauge so I use a very conservative number of minutes per card, based on the number of recorded minutes as well as ISO noise factor.
    I have no idea how I'd even gauge that during a session - when shooting I tend not even to notice card capacity, and just go until it stops. Is there a way to keep that information to the foreground, as it were?

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  • kdogkdog Administrators Posts: 11,681 moderator
    edited October 11, 2016
    The simple fix is to use cards that are larger than you'll ever need for your shoots. If you're worried about a large card failing and losing the entire shoot, use two of them and record to both. That's why your camera has two slots. I regularly shoot 2,000 to 3,000 shots at the events I shoot and never fill a card any more.
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  • ziggy53ziggy53 Super Moderators Posts: 24,145 moderator
    edited October 11, 2016
    divamum wrote: »
    I have no idea how I'd even gauge that during a session - when shooting I tend not even to notice card capacity, and just go until it stops. Is there a way to keep that information to the foreground, as it were?

    Sent from my HTC One M9 using Tapatalk

    For video, I tend to set everything up for the session and then do a 1-minute test. (Mostly to make sure that the settings are correct for the circumstances and to check the lighting.)

    Then I play back the test session, noting the file size. Dividing the file size (in GBytes) into the card size (in GBytes) yields the approximate total available minutes for that setup and for that card. Use approximately 80 percent of the card's available minutes and then switch the card out for another.

    For a really gross estimate you might print out this chart for total minutes per card:
    http://www.cinequipt.com/help_item.aspx?id=79
    Then use the 80 percent guideline against those numbers.

    For still images I just check the card as I start the session and, after around 10-20 images, note the counter that shows remaining space for images. (The counter shows the approximate additional images you might be able to shoot for that card, and it uses the images shot and stored to guesstimate that figure.) Just calculate 80 percent of the remainder counter and stop somewhere around that amount.

    On very large cards in the 5D Mark III the counter may read "1999" for quite a while before it starts ticking down. In that case just use your best guess and leave some space available on the card when you swap it out for a fresh card.

    Page 121 of the Canon 5D Mark III User Guide lists approximate images you can store on an 8 GB card. They say:

    For Large-Fine JPGs, 1010, 22 MPix, 7 MB, images might be stored.
    For RAW, 260, 22MPix, 27.1 MB, images might be stored.

    Also see: https://support.usa.canon.com/kb/index?page=content&id=ART134375
    ziggy53
    Moderator of the Cameras and Accessories forums
  • kdogkdog Administrators Posts: 11,681 moderator
    edited October 11, 2016
    ziggy53 wrote: »
    Page 121 of the Canon 5D Mark III User Guide lists approximate images you can store on an 8 GB card.
    And of course the chart on page 232 lists the video recording time for various size cards and formats, so no other experimentation or research is necessary to determine this.
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  • ziggy53ziggy53 Super Moderators Posts: 24,145 moderator
    edited October 11, 2016
    kdog wrote: »
    And of course the chart on page 232 lists the video recording time for various size cards and formats, so no other experimentation or research is necessary to determine this.

    Ah, thanks. thumb.gif
    ziggy53
    Moderator of the Cameras and Accessories forums
  • divamumdivamum Registered Users Posts: 9,021 Major grins
    edited October 11, 2016
    Great ideas. I'll bear it in mind, even though I do video very selcom (hence why this came as a shock - and, btw, on VIDEO I changed cards long before they ran out, because I was afraid I would miss something).

    In the meantime, I formatted the cards - in camera - half a dozen times each. Fired off some test shots. They read perfectly. Obviously, I'm not going to use them for anything critical in the future (and have marked them so I know which ones they are!), but it appears that they are still capable of writing and reading. This may fall into the, 'There are some things we'll never know...." category. I'll post back if anything else comes to light that may further clarify what actually happened. All very weird.
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  • divamumdivamum Registered Users Posts: 9,021 Major grins
    edited October 12, 2016
    Thoughts on this card? I was going to get one CF and one of the same one as an SD card; I can just put them both in, and either double-record, or segue as needed.

    I've previously had good luck with Transcend, hence considering them again; they're definitely priced favorably, too.

    PS Speed isn't typically a big issue for me - I don't shoot fast-moving subjects that often.
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  • ziggy53ziggy53 Super Moderators Posts: 24,145 moderator
    edited October 12, 2016
    divamum wrote: »
    Thoughts on this card? I was going to get one CF and one of the same one as an SD card; I can just put them both in, and either double-record, or segue as needed.

    I've previously had good luck with Transcend, hence considering them again; they're definitely priced favorably, too.

    PS Speed isn't typically a big issue for me - I don't shoot fast-moving subjects that often.

    According to a number of users/reviewers at that link that card is incompatible with many Canon cameras.

    https://www.amazon.com/product-reviews/B00KSLLR12/ref=acr_dpx_hist_1?ie=UTF8&filterByStar=one_star&reviewerType=avp_only_reviews&showViewpoints=0

    (Also read the 2 star reviews.)
    ziggy53
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  • divamumdivamum Registered Users Posts: 9,021 Major grins
    edited October 12, 2016
    Interesting. I typically only read the lower-ratwd reviews when it's a larger percentage than that, but here it's relevant; thanks for pointing it out. I'll see if the similar lexar also has issues.

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  • NikonsandVstromsNikonsandVstroms Registered Users Posts: 990 Major grins
    edited October 13, 2016
    divamum wrote: »
    Thoughts on this card? I was going to get one CF and one of the same one as an SD card; I can just put them both in, and either double-record, or segue as needed.

    I've previously had good luck with Transcend, hence considering them again; they're definitely priced favorably, too.

    PS Speed isn't typically a big issue for me - I don't shoot fast-moving subjects that often.

    What about SanDisk? It's 5 dollars more but you also get a year subscription to that recovery software that you tried to use earlier:

    https://www.amazon.com/SanDisk-Extreme-Compact-Memory-SDCFXS-032G-X46/dp/B00EZEBVE6/ref=sr_1_7?ie=UTF8&qid=1476396353&sr=8-7&keywords=sandisk%2B32gb%2Bcf&th=1

    It actually beats the claimed 60 mb/s upload speed:

    http://www.cameramemoryspeed.com/reviews/cf-cards/sandisk-extreme-32gb-cf-card/

    I've had pretty good luck myself with Transcend but have moved to SanDisk due to the price/performance of their SD cards.
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  • divamumdivamum Registered Users Posts: 9,021 Major grins
    edited October 13, 2016
    I searched multiple cards on Amazon and managed to miss this one, despite expressly looking for one with the coupon for the software. I swear I'm losing my infoholic touch - I can't get anything right on this one! Lol

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  • divamumdivamum Registered Users Posts: 9,021 Major grins
    edited October 16, 2016
    last question on this: any virtue in CF over SD (or vice versa)? SD is certainly cheaper per byte by the look of it.............
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  • NikonsandVstromsNikonsandVstroms Registered Users Posts: 990 Major grins
    edited October 16, 2016
    divamum wrote: »
    last question on this: any virtue in CF over SD (or vice versa)? SD is certainly cheaper per byte by the look of it.............

    Faster download speeds? At least vs the SD's with a single row of pins. And if you go for the newer UHS II cards make sure their UHS I speeds are fast as well since IIRC your camera isn't UHS II. For example on a UHS I device sandisk's 95 mb/s card is about 50% faster than their 280 mb/s one.

    I'd just check that camera memory speed site before buying.
    http://www.jonathanbeckley.com/
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