F2.8 or not

1ibandit · January 21, 2006

Ok I have a question.. I really need an indoor lens for shooting my kids basketball games. I have the kit len that came with my Canon dRebel XT, and I have been using that. When I am not zoomed in my Fstop is at 3.5 (1600 iso, shutter speed 250), and it take wonderfull pictures. If I zoom in it goes to 5.6, and way to dark for my liking, but needed for far end of the court.

All most to my question... I am looking at F2.8 lenses, and I don't have much money. I have been watching e-bay, and have found a few lens I think will work, but this is where I get lost.

Canon EF 100mm f/2.8 Macro USM this info tells me it is a F2.8, but how do I tell if it will say at F2.8 throughout the focal lenth? Do I go by the F2.8 because it is the only Fstop the lens shows on it? Many others I see are like my Kit lens, and says F3.5-5.6.

Corect me if I am wrong, but after looking at so many lens I think that if it say only 1 fstop range on the lens it can't be kept in the Fstop range. Even though it has other fstop ranges.

I really hope you can understand what I am asking

Andy · January 21, 2006

1ibandit wrote:

Ok I have a question.. I really need an indoor lens for shooting my kids basketball games. I have the kit len that came with my Canon dRebel XT, and I have been using that. When I am not zoomed in my Fstop is at 3.5 (1600 iso, shutter speed 250), and it take wonderfull pictures. If I zoom in it goes to 5.6, and way to dark for my liking, but needed for far end of the court.

All most to my question... I am looking at F2.8 lenses, and I don't have much money. I have been watching e-bay, and have found a few lens I think will work, but this is where I get lost.

Canon EF 100mm f/2.8 Macro USM this info tells me it is a F2.8, but how do I tell if it will say at F2.8 throughout the focal lenth? Do I go by the F2.8 because it is the only Fstop the lens shows on it? Many others I see are like my Kit lens, and says F3.5-5.6.

Corect me if I am wrong, but after looking at so many lens I think that if it say only 1 fstop range on the lens it can't be kept in the Fstop range. Even though it has other fstop ranges.

I really hope you can understand what I am asking

Canon's 85mm f/1.8 at about $350 or less, is really sweet for indoor hoops. Canon's 100mm f/2.8 macro is indeed f/2.8 all through it's range - 100mm

there's no changing of the focal length on a prime lens. The difference between f/5.6 and f/2.8 is HUGE and even better @ f/1.8. You'll gain faster shutter speeds at any given ISO.

1ibandit · January 21, 2006

Andy wrote:

Canon's 85mm f/1.8 at about $350 or less, is really sweet for indoor hoops. Canon's 100mm f/2.8 macro is indeed f/2.8 all through it's range - 100mm there's no changing of the focal length on a prime lens. The difference between f/5.6 and f/2.8 is HUGE and even better @ f/1.8. You'll gain faster shutter speeds at any given ISO.

Andy

Thank you for the fast reply, but.. how do I tell if a lens will remain at the given Fstop? Is my thinking right? If it only says F1.8 that means you can keep it at that Fstop?

Also I will look up the lens you refer to, but $350 maybe to high... for now.. Yes I know, I blew my wad on the camera, memory, extra battery, smugmug, and extra len. Does it ever end with what I needed heheehehe

Bob

gus · January 21, 2006

Just put the camera to AV mode & set the ap to its lowest number.

Andy · January 21, 2006

1ibandit wrote:

Andy

Thank you for the fast reply, but.. how do I tell if a lens will remain at the given Fstop? Is my thinking right? If it only says F1.8 that means you can keep it at that Fstop?

Also I will look up the lens you refer to, but $350 maybe to high... for now.. Yes I know, I blew my wad on the camera, memory, extra battery, smugmug, and extra len. Does it ever end with what I needed heheehehe

Bob

Primes, e.g., Canon 85 f/1.8: it has f/stops from f/1.8 up to f/22.

Zooms (some): will have max apertures that will change as you zoom. E.g., Canon's 28-135 IS f/3.5 - 5.6. It's f/3.5 at the widest (28mm) and f/5.6 at the tele end. More expensive zooms have a constant aperture. Like Canon's 70-200 f/2.8L IS - it's f/2.8 at 70mm and also at 200mm.

1ibandit · January 21, 2006

Humungus wrote:

Just put the camera to AV mode & set the ap to its lowest number.

Humungus:

I shoot in manual mode, I find that AV mode will not get fast enough shutter speeds. I would rather have a under expossed picture then one full of blur.

ALso in manual mode the Fstops (on my lens (cheap ones)) change as you zoom in to the lowest settings. As long as you have picked the lowest Fstop.

Thank you for replying all help is usefull

1ibandit · January 21, 2006

Andy wrote:

Primes, e.g., Canon 85 f/1.8: it has f/stops from f/1.8 up to f/22.

Zooms (some): will have max apertures that will change as you zoom. E.g., Canon's 28-135 IS f/3.5 - 5.6. It's f/3.5 at the widest (28mm) and f/5.6 at the tele end. More expensive zooms have a constant aperture. Like Canon's 70-200 f/2.8L IS - it's f/2.8 at 70mm and also at 200mm.

Ok so I am not explaining myself here... How do I tell if a len CAN remain at a given Fstop throughout the focal lenth. I see on most all lenses they have two ways of showing the fstops. They show one fstop f2.8 or they show the range f2.8-5.6 now... Am I right in saying (thinking) that if it only shows one fstop then it can hold that fstop thoughout the focal lenth.

Sorry for asking the same question over and over..

Andy · January 21, 2006

1ibandit wrote:

Ok so I am not explaining myself here... How do I tell if a len CAN remain at a given Fstop throughout the focal lenth. I see on most all lenses they have two ways of showing the fstops. They show one fstop f2.8 or they show the range f2.8-5.6 now... Am I right in saying (thinking) that if it only shows one fstop then it can hold that fstop thoughout the focal lenth.

Sorry for asking the same question over and over..

Bandit....

A prime lens (like the 85mm or 100mm I mentioned above) if it says f/1.8 or f/2.8, then that's what it is. IT WON'T change unless YOU change it.

Zooms (some): will have max apertures that WILL CHANGE as you zoom. IF they have TWO f numbers in their description, e.g., Canon's 28-135 IS f/3.5 - 5.6. It's f/3.5 at the widest (28mm) and f/5.6 at the tele end. More expensive zooms have a constant aperture. Like Canon's 70-200 f/2.8L IS - it's f/2.8 at 70mm and also at 200mm.

Clear as mud?

1ibandit · January 21, 2006

Andy wrote:

Bandit....

A prime lens (like the 85mm or 100mm I mentioned above) if it says f/1.8 or f/2.8, then that's what it is. IT WON'T change unless YOU change it.

Zooms (some): will have max apertures that WILL CHANGE as you zoom. IF they have TWO f numbers in their description, e.g., Canon's 28-135 IS f/3.5 - 5.6. It's f/3.5 at the widest (28mm) and f/5.6 at the tele end. More expensive zooms have a constant aperture. Like Canon's 70-200 f/2.8L IS - it's f/2.8 at 70mm and also at 200mm.

Clear as mud?

Andy.. That is the info I was looking for. I thought it was that way, but I don't want to get a lens I don't want. Armed with this info look out e-bay.. hehe
Thanks again

Richard · January 21, 2006

1ibandit wrote:

Ok so I am not explaining myself here... How do I tell if a len CAN remain at a given Fstop throughout the focal lenth. I see on most all lenses they have two ways of showing the fstops. They show one fstop f2.8 or they show the range f2.8-5.6 now... Am I right in saying (thinking) that if it only shows one fstop then it can hold that fstop thoughout the focal lenth.

Sorry for asking the same question over and over..

Only a zoom lens can change its focal length. Prime lenses (like the Canon 100mm f/2.8 macro you mentioned) have only one focal length, so there is only one maximum aperture. Many zoom lenses have a smaller maximum aperture at their longest focal length than at their widest focal length, like f/2.8 (wide) to f/5.6 (long). Some zoom lenses have the same maximum aperture at all focal lengths, so you will only see one f stop mentioned in their specification. You probably want one of these, but they are the most expensive lenses. Still not clear

scratch ? Keep asking and someone will eventually help you figure it out.

Cheers,

Steve Cavigliano · January 21, 2006

1ibandit wrote:

Humungus:

I shoot in manual mode, I find that AV mode will not get fast enough shutter speeds. I would rather have a under expossed picture then one full of blur.

ALso in manual mode the Fstops (on my lens (cheap ones)) change as you zoom in to the lowest settings. As long as you have picked the lowest Fstop.

Thank you for replying all help is usefull

1ibandit,
Lots of good info here, including Gus's Av suggestion. Shooting in Manual isn't getting you any better exposure than shooting in Av. The reason you get better speeds using Manual is because you are under exposing the shot more. You can do the same thing using Av mode, by using negative EV Compensation.

The better thing to do is, as Andy suggests, get an F2.0 or faster prime. That way you can shoot in any of the manual/semi manual modes and get decent exposures as well as decent speeds. Unless you are shooting at a major college or pro areana, you will be stuck with F2 apertures and ISO1600 to get 1/320-1/500 speeds

Hey, good luck and I think you will find this place is a pretty good resource for Bball shooters

Steve

1ibandit · January 21, 2006

rsinmadrid wrote:

Only a zoom lens can change its focal length. Prime lenses (like the Canon 100mm f/2.8 macro you mentioned) have only one focal length, so there is only one maximum aperture. Many zoom lenses have a smaller maximum aperture at their longest focal length than at their widest focal length, like f/2.8 (wide) to f/5.6 (long). Some zoom lenses have the same maximum aperture at all focal lengths, so you will only see one f stop mentioned in their specification. You probably want one of these, but they are the most expensive lenses. Still not clear scratch ? Keep asking and someone will eventually help you figure it out.

Cheers,

Between you and Andy you nailed my question... It does raise others like if I get a prime len I am stuck at that focal lenth. That mean (correct me if wrong) I can't zoom in, and am stuck there.. Now what lens is best (bang for buck) for basketball. 85mm like Andy said, or 100mm.

gus · January 21, 2006

1ibandit wrote:

Between you and Andy you nailed my question... It does raise others like if I get a prime len I am stuck at that focal lenth. That mean (correct me if wrong) I can't zoom in, and am stuck there.. Now what lens is best (bang for buck) for basketball. 85mm like Andy said, or 100mm.

I love primes. I have 3 very nice ones & they spend a lot of time on my camera. No ..they cant be zoomed but thats not what its about for some photographers. Shoot whats in your eye not whats in front of you...

hell even i dont understand that. Anyone can take a shot of a car for instance taking up the whole photo with it but others will walk around it & look for light reflecting & choose an angle that will only show maybe 1/8 of the car.

This is the value of a prime...it forces you to look deeper. This is just my take on primes v zooms.

1ibandit · January 21, 2006

Steve Cavigliano wrote:

1ibandit,
Lots of good info here, including Gus's Av suggestion. Shooting in Manual isn't getting you any better exposure than shooting in Av. The reason you get better speeds using Manual is because you are under exposing the shot more. You can do the same thing using Av mode, by using negative EV Compensation.

The better thing to do is, as Andy suggests, get an F2.0 or faster prime. That way you can shoot in any of the manual/semi manual modes and get decent exposures as well as decent speeds. Unless you are shooting at a major college or pro areana, you will be stuck with F2 apertures and ISO1600 to get 1/320-1/500 speeds

Hey, good luck and I think you will find this place is a pretty good resource for Bball shooters

Steve

Steve:
I have been around film camera's most of my life (even darkroom B&W only), but not dSLR. I have played with the EV compensation, but I don't understand it enough.

Will EV compensation give a better picture? From the little bit I played with the Av mode the speeds were around 100ish. Not good for basketball, so I went to manual mode. As for the lens.. YES YES YES I want a faster one, but I have no money.. So what I am looking for is the fool on e-bay that is selling something he doesn't know the value of. They also don't know how to discribe is right so I am stuck looking at the pictures. This leads us back to the start..

Thank you for your help, and as my saying goes what you don't give me I will steal heheh

DoctorIt · January 21, 2006

1ibandit wrote:

Steve:
I have been around film camera's most of my life (even darkroom B&W only), but not dSLR. I have played with the EV compensation, but I don't understand it enough.

EV compensation is not a film or digital issue, its purely an exposure issue. In other words, all good film cameras have EV compensation as well.

Will EV compensation give a better picture? From the little bit I played with the Av mode the speeds were around 100ish. Not good for basketball, so I went to manual mode.

You say you've been around cameras, even in a darkroom, so why are you having such a hard time with understanding exposure (sorry, not trying to belittle you, but its hard to answer equipment questions when your comments suggest you're having a hard time with basic exposure)? EV compensation will not "give a better picture", its just a method of controlling exposure and therefore a better picture.

Just trying to steer your questions in the right direction.

Steve Cavigliano · January 21, 2006

1ibandit wrote:

Steve:
I have been around film camera's most of my life (even darkroom B&W only), but not dSLR. I have played with the EV compensation, but I don't understand it enough.

Will EV compensation give a better picture? From the little bit I played with the Av mode the speeds were around 100ish. Not good for basketball, so I went to manual mode. As for the lens.. YES YES YES I want a faster one, but I have no money.. So what I am looking for is the fool on e-bay that is selling something he doesn't know the value of. They also don't know how to discribe is right so I am stuck looking at the pictures. This leads us back to the start..

Thank you for your help, and as my saying goes what you don't give me I will steal heheh

OK, so you are low on funds, so you might have to make do with what you have. Or, you can pick up a Thrifty-Fifty. That's Canon's 50mm F1.8. The thrifty part is that this "steal" of a lens is an excellent low light performer, with decent AF speed and it only costs $80usd. While you won't have more than an 80mm FOV, you will have a constant F1.8 and this lens is fairly sharp wide open

Otherwise, I'm not sure if you can get better results than what you're seeing now, using your current lens. At F5.6, the zoom is just too slow for indoor action

Shooting in RAW may help you salvage some of your under exposed shots, but you won't be able to get faster speeds, even with your lens zoomed all the way out. As a matter of fact, I'm amazed you were able to get 1/200 @F3.5.

OK, a real quick tutorial about EV Comp. In manual mode, you adjust the aperture and speed manually. In Av mode, you select aperture and the camera picks the speed. In Tv mode, you select the speed and the camera picks the aperture. In Av and Tv (as well as Prog Auto), you can tweak the selection that the camera makes by using Exposure Compensation. So in the case of using Av mode, where the camera is selecting speed, you can raise or lower the shutter speed by using EV Compensation. Or, in Tv, you select the speed and can adjust the aperture selected by the camera, to a point using, EV Comp. That point being that you can't go past the max aperture for the lens/focal length being used. Using your lens, with a max aperture at full zoom of F5.6, as an example you couldn't select an EV Comp setting that would require an aperture value wider than F5.6 when zoomed in. Zoomed out, this limit would be F3.5.

So if you are shooting in Av mode and you have selected your widest aperture, you can change the speed the camera has selected by either using + (positive) EV Comp which will decrease shutter speed. Think of the EV Comp plus direction as moving closer towards "over exposure". Conversely, you can raise speeds by using - (negative) EV Comp. So you could think of negative compensation as moving towards "under exposure". Using the same aperture, over exposure would be associated with slower speeds and under exposure with faster speeds.

For example, I am in Av mode set to F2.0 @ ISO1600. My speed (that the camera selected using this mode) is 1/320. A little slow for my taste. If I dial in -1/3 stop of EV Comp, my speed will rise to 1/400. If I dial in -2/3 stop of EV Comp, my speed will rise to 1/500. Perfect for what I want to do

So I will shoot this scene at the above settings with -2/3 stop of EV Comp dialed in.

This would coincide with using F2.0 @ ISO1600 and setting the speed to 1/500 in Manual mode. You would notice your meter would show you -2/3 EVs from neutral exposure. The cool thing about EV Comp is that it works with the big dial and is real easy to change on the fly without taking your eye off the viewfinder.

Anyway, I hope this helps some

:

Steve

1ibandit · January 21, 2006

DoctorIt wrote:

EV compensation is not a film or digital issue, its purely an exposure issue. In other words, all good film cameras have EV compensation as well.

You say you've been around cameras, even in a darkroom, so why are you having such a hard time with understanding exposure (sorry, not trying to belittle you, but its hard to answer equipment questions when your comments suggest you're having a hard time with basic exposure)? EV compensation will not "give a better picture", its just a method of controlling exposure and therefore a better picture.

Just trying to steer your questions in the right direction.

I don't have a hard time understanding it. I have not played with EV much. I do understand what changing fstop/sp/iso does for a picture.

As for EV on film a film camera...
Maybe I should not have said I have been around camera's without more background. My dad was a semi-pro photographer, he showed me the basics. In school I was in Audio/visual taking picture at school of events. Using the darkroom to develope them. This was back in the 70s. And I don't remember an EV setting on any of the old cameras.

After that I didn't have much of a camera to use. About a five years ago I go back into taking pictures, but still couldn't afford a good camera. Now I blew my wad, and got a Canon dslr RebelXT. So I am talking pictures like mad.

On average I am taking 200 to 300 pictures at EACH game. I say each because I have two sons playing. I want to make the pictures the best I can so that is why I am here. In the summer it's baseball/soccer.

So I hope that helps alittle when I speak out of my butt hehehehe

Steve Cavigliano · January 21, 2006

DoctorIt wrote:

EV compensation is not a film or digital issue, its purely an exposure issue. In other words, all good film cameras have EV compensation as well.

You say you've been around cameras, even in a darkroom, so why are you having such a hard time with understanding exposure (sorry, not trying to belittle you, but its hard to answer equipment questions when your comments suggest you're having a hard time with basic exposure)? EV compensation will not "give a better picture", its just a method of controlling exposure and therefore a better picture.

Just trying to steer your questions in the right direction.

Doc,

I was just thinking about how I started shooting at 13 with a Yashica TLR. Mostly surf shots and mostly using B&W film. I delevoped my own B&W's for years, including time spent in Asia and SE Asia in the early 70's. I got my first SLR in 1972 and shot hundreds of rolls of film. I thought I knew what was what.

You know what I found out? I found out I didn't know squat. I had never used EV Comp in all those years of shooting. I never heard of it until I started shooting digital and participating in photo forums about 4 years ago

Yet I have many really nice (and well exposed) enlargements, taken during my long period of ignorance..lol, hung up all over our home. Granted, I was mainly shooting film not slides, but even so. I think quite a few people never bothered to learn the nuances of exposure.

I may even have been a happier shooter before I understood all this technical crap

This stuff is more like work now...lol

Steve

1ibandit · January 21, 2006

Steve Cavigliano wrote:

This would coincide with using F2.0 @ ISO1600 and setting the speed to 1/500 in Manual mode. You would notice your meter would show you -2/3 EVs from neutral exposure. The cool thing about EV Comp is that it works with the big dial and is real easy to change on the fly without taking your eye off the viewfinder.

Anyway, I hope this helps some :

Steve

Steve:

Thanks, and I will try this, but So far I don't have to move my eye from the eye peace when changing speeds. With the Rebel, I press the button halfway down, then turn the dial left or right to change the speed. I have the Fstops as low as they go, and they stay as low as then can. I will try to put some of the pictures on my smugmug page, but I work 12 hour shifts and am working right now... bummer..

1ibandit · January 21, 2006

A link to see the basketball pictures
As said in last post. I was able to upload some of the pictures. I will be doing lots more.

http://1ibandit.smugmug.com/gallery/1104922

Comments welcome

leebase · January 21, 2006

Except for my kit lens, all my lenses are "fast" lenses -- f2.8 or better. I went with fast glass because I shoot weddings and can't always use my flash.

When my daughter started playing basketball I discovered that f2.8 really isn't fast enough. It's better than what you have -- but a f2 or better prime is really going to help.

The 50mm f1.8 is a must have lens. It's only $75 and it's a very nice and sharp and fast lens. Personally, I don't think it focuses fast enough.

I got the 85mm f1.8 for portraits and indoor sports. It's a very nice lens, focuses fast. However, it's LONG for kids basketball. Sure you can shoot the other side of the court with it....but think about it....when the kids are down on the other side of the court they are facing away from you and toward the basket. Not the recipe for great shots.

Sure they turn around when the play comes the other way....but that's not the dramatic part of the game.

Also basketball is a frequently "verticle" game. The basket is 10' afterall. Even the 50mm lens feels long to me to captuere a jumpshot or dunk....to get floor to basket in the photo.

I pickedd up the Sigma 30mm f1.4 and I'll be using it for the first time this coming Sat. I also got the Tamron 17-35 f2.4-4 since last basketball seasong, so I'll be trying it out for those verticle shots.

Indoor sports are tough to shoot. Other than the 50mm f1.8, there are no "inexpensive" lesnes that will be suitable.

Lee

1ibandit · January 22, 2006

leebase wrote:

The 50mm f1.8 is a must have lens. It's only $75 and it's a very nice and sharp and fast lens. Personally, I don't think it focuses fast enough.

Indoor sports are tough to shoot. Other than the 50mm f1.8, there are no "inexpensive" lesnes that will be suitable.

Lee

Last night I was going through some shots I have taken on the games, and I think the 50mm f1.8 is a lens for me(for now). Most of my good shot are on the close side of the court, and shot under 50mm. I will hunt for today. I have not priced them or checked them on e-bay, but if they are under $100 I will have one ordered today.

I want to thank everyone for the great help, and I really like dgrin. Andy you are doing a great thing here and keep it up..

Red Bull · January 22, 2006

Here it is. You don't even have to look on eBay. All of the auctions on eBay I see people paying more than what you can get it for new!

50 1.8

It's a great lens. I didn't know there were that many stops between 2.8 and 1.8. It goes 1.8 > 2.0 > 2.2 > 2.5 > 2.8

You'll love it.

Red Baron · January 23, 2006

I tried shooting my 10-year old son's basketball games with a 28-70 2.8L getting inconsistent results - although the lens was 2.8 throughout the focal range it wasn't fast enough. High school gyms, at least in my part of the world, aren't particularly bright. I've since added a 50mm 1.4 and the results have been great. As others have mentioned 50mm can even be a little too long depending on your shooting location. I miss the ability to zoom at times but I've gotten over it. I shot RAW in Tv mode with a shutter speed of 1/400, ISO 1600 and let the aperture fall where it may.

DanielB · January 23, 2006

Red Baron wrote:

I tried shooting my 10-year old son's basketball games with a 28-70 2.8L getting inconsistent results - although the lens was 2.8 throughout the focal range it wasn't fast enough. High school gyms, at least in my part of the world, aren't particularly bright. I've since added a 50mm 1.4 and the results have been great. As others have mentioned 50mm can even be a little too long depending on your shooting location. I miss the ability to zoom at times but I've gotten over it. I shot RAW in Tv mode with a shutter speed of 1/400, ISO 1600 and let the aperture fall where it may.

for basket ball i recommend the 85 1.8

its perfect lenght for the sidelines, and very fast

wxwax · January 23, 2006

1ibandit wrote:

As said in last post. I was able to upload some of the pictures. I will be doing lots more.

http://1ibandit.smugmug.com/gallery/1104922

Comments welcome

I'd want to get in a whole lot closer than you have. You're shooting everything really wide. The people are too small. You need to make them bigger. So a longer lens (longer focal length) would be a good idea. To get an idea of how to shoot basketball, look in your daily newspaper, or buy a copy of Sports Illustrated, or browse through www.sportsshooter.com.

Also, it's not clear to me from this thread that you fully understand the difference between a prime lens and a zoom lens.

With a zoom lens you can make things bigger or smaller in your shot by changing the focal length (zooming in and out, turning the ring on the lens.) With a prime lens, you cannot. The only way to make things bigger in your shot is to either get up and walker closer to them.... or have them come closer to you.

Does that make sense?