Requiring credit card for trial

PaulSpot

Hi there. I'd like to say in advance that I don't mean for the following to sound rude, and in turn I hope nobody is rude with me in their defence of that which I'm critiquing

I found it surprising that smugmug requires a credit card to even try out the site, and I found it downright amazing that there weren't really any threads on the topic yet.

You see, I almost completely skipped over looking into this site in any way at all when I saw it insisted on getting a hook into me before I could check it out. I only gave it a second look because I'm a pretty thorough researcher and wanted to really get the best site out there. There were a few recommendations, such as that of Greg Reinacker.

Here's the thing; whether you mean it this way or not, it comes off as looking like a really evil trick. It seems to me that requiring the credit card, along with an extraodinarily short trial period is an attempt to get people to accidentally pay for a year of service because they forgot to cancel by the end of the 7th day. This is a very common and horrific tactic we see every day, right? You say "Just sign up now! It's free! If you don't like it, you can cancel!", but you know they'll forget and then be upset when it's too late. When describing to a friend of mine the benefits of smugmug, he replied that he absolutely would never support a company that does that to its (potential) customers.

Now, I know, you might be tempted to say that the purpose of requiring the credit card is more noble. Perhaps to try to prevent some kind of theft of service or filling the site up with people who aren't very serious about putting up pictures. But look at the incredible success of Flickr; they are completely open, and free, so that you can truly get a feel for it without having to get tricked into shelling out $30. This is, I believe, a large part of the reason that their community is hands-down the best. Again, I don't mean to offend, because I can see already that the forums here are quite nice and the people in them enjoy them a lot. But if you look around on the 'net for a second, it's pretty obvious that Flickr is where the buzz is, and that they say that if you want community you go there. Plus, they don't have any kind of trouble with their open and transparent policy.

Other services, of course, are completely free like Kodak/Ofoto or Snapfish, but I think we all know why those services aren't even worth using for free They have a whole other level of evil, where it's clear that their only intention is to get you to print photos and they care nothing for sharing or community. So trust me, I'm not comparing smugmug to that pile.

Anyway, this is really the last thing preventing me from going with smugmug over Flickr at this point... partly that I hate to support such a policy, and partly that I haven't been able to try out the uploading and organizing features without a trial.

Please feel free to explain further why you've chosen this policy, so that I might undertstand if there really was any purpose other than tricking people. But at the same time, please consider how much better off you'd be if you removed this policy. Smugmug could really take off, and you could make a lot of money. I'm certain I'm not alone in this...

Thanks for taking the time to read, I appreciate being heard.

Andy

Hi, and thanks for posting. It's pretty simple. There are two reasons for our requiring the use of credit cards upfront.

The first is that we have precious photos that have been uploaded to our site. If someone forgets that they need to give us a credit card number in order to keep them from being lost that is a concern to us. We don't want to just cancel the account at the end of the free trial period, losing those photos forever. And we really can't spend a lot of time and effort trying to get credit card information from those new subscribers. Some people don't check their email frequently or have changed email addresses, etc. It would be very inefficient for us if we tried to be careful not to lose any photos. The folks who didn't care about those photos would probably ignore us but we wouldn't know that. The ones who care about their photos might not get contacted.

The second reason is unethical behavior. There would be a certain number of people who would keep signing up for our service every 8 days just to use us for auctions, forums, etc. without ever having the intention to pay for their usage. Unfortunately, those type of people are often the ones who would display images that are not family safe also, which is another issue for us.

I hope this helps!

All the best, and thanks for considering SmugMug.

PaulSpot

Wow, that was an extremely prompt response!

That does help a bit. If I might briefly respond to a couple of those points:

The solution to not wanting to hound people down to get their credit card information would be to not do it. You know the status of their account- it hasn't been upgraded to a real account, so that's that. They'll pay when they want it. And to prevent losing photos, the solution would be to not delete their photos... ever! Again, look at Flickr (you're probably familiar with the competition??). They simply limit the number of MB you can upload per month to something modest (20MB) so that you can try it all out, but can't do any real serious uploading. And how long do they keep those photos? Forever! And those users are free to keep using that service in this limited capacity for ever. It really doesn't cost much to support 20MB per month, and that way you can take your sweet time trying out everything from tagging to browsing to uploading and downloading and all the great mash-ups people are doing through their API.

This solves the second problem, too - no need to sign up every 8 days; just leave them alone and let them use that pithy amount of space and bandwidth forever; no?

As to "family safe"... does smugmug censor content? I had gotten the impression that nudity and other such supposedly "family-unsafe" content would be OK; I don't like thinking that all my photos will be censored, which is why I was considering this site. Far as I can tell, Flickr's only censorship is in the form of users marking things as "May offend", in which case I can still keep the photos up but they don't appear in public forums (which is more than OK by me). I probably should be hunting down your policy somewhere.......

Andy

PaulSpot wrote:

Wow, that was an extremely prompt response!

That does help a bit. If I might briefly respond to a couple of those points:

The solution to not wanting to hound people down to get their credit card information would be to not do it. You know the status of their account- it hasn't been upgraded to a real account, so that's that. They'll pay when they want it. And to prevent losing photos, the solution would be to not delete their photos... ever! Again, look at Flickr (you're probably familiar with the competition??). They simply limit the number of MB you can upload per month to something modest (20MB) so that you can try it all out, but can't do any real serious uploading. And how long do they keep those photos? Forever! And those users are free to keep using that service in this limited capacity for ever. It really doesn't cost much to support 20MB per month, and that way you can take your sweet time trying out everything from tagging to browsing to uploading and downloading and all the great mash-ups people are doing through their API.

This solves the second problem, too - no need to sign up every 8 days; just leave them alone and let them use that pithy amount of space and bandwidth forever; no?

As to "family safe"... does smugmug censor content? I had gotten the impression that nudity and other such supposedly "family-unsafe" content would be OK; I don't like thinking that all my photos will be censored, which is why I was considering this site. Far as I can tell, Flickr's only censorship is in the form of users marking things as "May offend", in which case I can still keep the photos up but they don't appear in public forums (which is more than OK by me). I probably should be hunting down your policy somewhere.......

Hi Paul, thanks for the comments and suggestions. We love to hear them. As to your last question, we have a very clear policy on nudity, it's written in our terms of service and quoted below here. The general guideline is, if your photo is considered art and could be found on public display in museums where minors visit, it is acceptable on smugmug. If, however, it would only be suited for adult sites, magazines, or R-rated movies, it is not acceptable at smugmug.

SmugMug Terms of Service wrote:

NUDITY

Smugmug must remain a safe site for families with children, so we prohibit the uploading and display of photographs or other Media portraying explicit nudity that would be unacceptable in a public museum where minors visit, for example. If your photos would only be suited for adult sites, adult magazines, or R-rated movies, they are not suitable for Smugmug. Judgement of suitable Media is the sole discretion of Smugmug, and Smugmug reserves the right to delete any photographs or other Media it deems to violate this policy and/or to cancel the account of any subscriber who posts photos or other Media violating this policy.

PaulSpot

Andy wrote:

Hi Paul, thanks for the comments and suggestions. We love to hear them. As to your last question, we have a very clear policy on nudity, it's written in our terms of service and quoted below here. The general guideline is, if your photo is considered art and could be found on public display in museums where minors visit, it is acceptable on smugmug. If, however, it would only be suited for adult sites, magazines, or R-rated movies, it is not acceptable at smugmug.

That seems reasonable enough. Thanks.

System

Also, and I have no idea if SM thinks about this, but generally people that are willing to partially commit to a product or service with even a little effort on the prospect's part (like a refundable deposit for example), they are much more likely to become a long-term buyer of a serivce. This is just a good business practice as it is far better to have a smaller and more loyal following than just put up numbers that turn over constantly. This small commitment tends to weed out those that are just looking for a short-term free deal and then move on to something else.

Again and I must repeat, I have no idea if this is part of SM's thinking, but it is a sound business practice for building a stable long-term customer base--something any business wants. But, that must be followed by outstanding customer service, and SM does that too. That is very much unlike a business model that assumes some people will be unwittingly roped into a $30 fee. From what I've seen of the SM people, they are very ethical and are very customer-centric, and they keep being service oriented long after the sale...which is kind of refreshing. Best, Shane

PS And I'm at times a difficult customer...and they keep dealing me in a professional manner. Running a small business myself, I know first hand that that is not an easy task.

Malte

I have no problem at all with the fact that I have to give my credit info before I've become a member. As has been said, its an excellent way to weed out the bad seeds. I also think it's very conveniant that everything is set up when the trial ends and automatically transitions to a subscription.

However the trial period of seven days is way too short. If I was able to sit and test Smugmug fulltime for seven days straight, then maybe it would be sufficient, but who is.

I say 30 days minimum, who's with me?

rainforest1155

Malte wrote:

I say 30 days minimum, who's with me?

Yeah, 7 days is way to short and more sounds like a movie. Most people can effectively only use one weekend to have a look at it. It's not just having a look at your own on it, but also to show it to friends and family who then are bound to use it afterwards, too. So 21 days (=2 weekends) is the minimum for such a feature-rich site.

Sebastian

PS: Malte - looks like I still got some positive thoughts on people today - guess that goes with the topic.

Malte

rainforest1155 wrote:

Yeah, 7 days is way to short and more sounds like a movie. Most people can effectively only use one weekend to have a look at it. It's not just having a look at your own on it, but also to show it to friends and family who then are bound to use it afterwards, too. So 21 days (=2 weekends) is the minimum for such a feature-rich site.

Sebastian

PS: Malte - looks like I still got some positive thoughts on people today - guess that goes with the topic.

Hey Sebastian, have you seen this in the feature request thread? I guess all of us still here have already accepted the short trial period but I feel like we should request it for the sake of future smugmuggers. :soapbox

BTW, the dude on the soapbox isn't cursing, he's gently requesting a 30 day trial period.

Andy

Malte wrote:

Hey Sebastian, have you seen this in the feature request thread? I guess all of us still here have already accepted the short trial period but I feel like we should request it for the sake of future smugmuggers. :soapbox

BTW, the dude on the soapbox isn't cursing, he's gently requesting a 30 day trial period.

Thanks for the feature request We actually feel pretty good about the 7day period, it's been working really well. If folks need more time, they can always cancel and do another 7 days.

Malte

Andy wrote:

Thanks for the feature request We actually feel pretty good about the 7day period, it's been working really well. If folks need more time, they can always cancel and do another 7 days.

Might be that it's working well for Smugmug, I'm saying I wasn't all that sure when my seven days were up. I had to go more on hearsay than actually knowing for myself.

Malte

PaulSpot

Andy wrote:

Thanks for the feature request We actually feel pretty good about the 7day period, it's been working really well. If folks need more time, they can always cancel and do another 7 days.

7 days might be working OK, but I bet 30 would work a heck of a lot better. I'm in the software business myself, and I can guarantee you that if we cut our trial from 30 to 7 it would destroy our business. Yes, most people will still buy in after about 15 days, but that's no reason to alienate everyone else.

Smugmug could be so much bigger... have so many more users. Is there a desire to try to keep the community small for some reason? If that's the case, it all makes a lot more sense, because only the really hard-core people will bust out a credit card and only try for 7 days. I myself have still yet to sign up for the trial because my wife is 41 weeks pregnant, so as soon as I sign up she may go into labor and I won't be back to my PC in time to cancel the charge to me. I hate the idea that I can't try out the software for fear that any little thing might keep me away from a PC for too long to cancel before I'm tricked out of my $$

30 days, though, gives you the security of knowing that if you get busy for a week you're not out of luck.

Sorry I sound so pushy, but I feel very strongly about this policy and believe I've got enough experience is the field to think I'm not talking about something I know nothing of. Don't get me wrong, I understand that this discussion has probably been had a million times in the conference rooms of smugmug, and you had to come to this conclusion for good reasons. Still, though, I think the user-centric view that best serves your customers is easy to see... nobody's clamoring for shorter trial periods!

Thanks for listening.

onethumb

PaulSpot wrote:

7 days might be working OK, but I bet 30 would work a heck of a lot better. I'm in the software business myself, and I can guarantee you that if we cut our trial from 30 to 7 it would destroy our business. Yes, most people will still buy in after about 15 days, but that's no reason to alienate everyone else.

Smugmug could be so much bigger... have so many more users. Is there a desire to try to keep the community small for some reason? If that's the case, it all makes a lot more sense, because only the really hard-core people will bust out a credit card and only try for 7 days. I myself have still yet to sign up for the trial because my wife is 41 weeks pregnant, so as soon as I sign up she may go into labor and I won't be back to my PC in time to cancel the charge to me. I hate the idea that I can't try out the software for fear that any little thing might keep me away from a PC for too long to cancel before I'm tricked out of my $$

We want SmugMug to be bigger, but only at a measured growth rate where we can keep our customer service, our servers and systems, and our software feature growth in line. If we grew big at the expense of great customer service, I'd view my company as a failure.

30 days is difficult because credit card companies ding us with big fees for authorizing but not charging cards for that long. Since our company is growing at a nice healthy pace with a 7-day free trial, we haven't had any inclination to change it.

Finally, we always give refunds to people who missed their 7-day window but still wish to cancel. A simple email to our customer service will do the trick. We're not evil - we want our customers to love us, not talk about the dirty tricks we pull to get their money.

PaulSpot wrote:

30 days, though, gives you the security of knowing that if you get busy for a week you're not out of luck.

Sorry I sound so pushy, but I feel very strongly about this policy and believe I've got enough experience is the field to think I'm not talking about something I know nothing of. Don't get me wrong, I understand that this discussion has probably been had a million times in the conference rooms of smugmug, and you had to come to this conclusion for good reasons. Still, though, I think the user-centric view that best serves your customers is easy to see... nobody's clamoring for shorter trial periods!

Thanks for listening.

Actually, the conversation has rarely been had at SmugMug, mostly because we rarely hear this request. We sign up hundreds of customers each day (most of them are not hardcore or internet-savvy customers - mostly soccer moms and new dads), 92% of whom stay on to become fanatically happy customers, and almost none of them complain about the 7-day trial. It seems to just work for us.

Thanks for the feedback, though. It's extremely valuable and we'll keep it in mind.

Don

Malte

onethumb wrote:

We want SmugMug to be bigger, but only at a measured growth rate where we can keep our customer service, our servers and systems, and our software feature growth in line. If we grew big at the expense of great customer service, I'd view my company as a failure.

30 days is difficult because credit card companies ding us with big fees for authorizing but not charging cards for that long. Since our company is growing at a nice healthy pace with a 7-day free trial, we haven't had any inclination to change it.

Finally, we always give refunds to people who missed their 7-day window but still wish to cancel. A simple email to our customer service will do the trick. We're not evil - we want our customers to love us, not talk about the dirty tricks we pull to get their money.



Actually, the conversation has rarely been had at SmugMug, mostly because we rarely hear this request. We sign up hundreds of customers each day (most of them are not hardcore or internet-savvy customers - mostly soccer moms and new dads), 92% of whom stay on to become fanatically happy customers, and almost none of them complain about the 7-day trial. It seems to just work for us.

Thanks for the feedback, though. It's extremely valuable and we'll keep it in mind.

Don

Good enough for me! Thanks Don.

Malte

PaulSpot

onethumb wrote:

We want SmugMug to be bigger, but only at a measured growth rate where we can keep our customer service, our servers and systems, and our software feature growth in line. If we grew big at the expense of great customer service, I'd view my company as a failure.

30 days is difficult because credit card companies ding us with big fees for authorizing but not charging cards for that long. Since our company is growing at a nice healthy pace with a 7-day free trial, we haven't had any inclination to change it.

Finally, we always give refunds to people who missed their 7-day window but still wish to cancel. A simple email to our customer service will do the trick. We're not evil - we want our customers to love us, not talk about the dirty tricks we pull to get their money.



Actually, the conversation has rarely been had at SmugMug, mostly because we rarely hear this request. We sign up hundreds of customers each day (most of them are not hardcore or internet-savvy customers - mostly soccer moms and new dads), 92% of whom stay on to become fanatically happy customers, and almost none of them complain about the 7-day trial. It seems to just work for us.

Thanks for the feedback, though. It's extremely valuable and we'll keep it in mind.

Don

Thank you so much for the response; it's nice to see such participation in the forums from the CEO of all people! So, it looks like, yes - it is desired to keep the growth rate slow and to only consider serious customers. I mean, if you have to supply a credit card it's no surprise that 90% of the people stay, right? It's not really the same type of thing as a flickr, where you expect your friends and family to get accounts (people who don't shell out $$ for software and the like very often). So it seems pretty reasonable to scale slowly as a service to your customers. Thank you for taking the time to let me in on your thought process.

I'm on "paternity leave" now, so I've taken this chance to start my trial. Too bad I didn't get in before the price change

onethumb

PaulSpot wrote:

Thank you so much for the response; it's nice to see such participation in the forums from the CEO of all people! So, it looks like, yes - it is desired to keep the growth rate slow and to only consider serious customers. I mean, if you have to supply a credit card it's no surprise that 90% of the people stay, right? It's not really the same type of thing as a flickr, where you expect your friends and family to get accounts (people who don't shell out $$ for software and the like very often). So it seems pretty reasonable to scale slowly as a service to your customers. Thank you for taking the time to let me in on your thought process.

I'm on "paternity leave" now, so I've taken this chance to start my trial. Too bad I didn't get in before the price change

I'm on "paternity leave" too (my twins just came home from the hospital!). (So far, that's meant that I skip sleeping for both SmugMug AND my babies instead of just SmugMug. We'll see if that changes...

Congrats!

Don

Malte

Whaaa, new mini-smuggers? You can't say something like that without posting pictures of the darlings! :bday

Malte

Andy

Malte wrote:

Whaaa, new mini-smuggers? You can't say something like that without posting pictures of the darlings! :bday

Malte

http://blogs.smugmug.com/onethumb/2006/01/14/the-newest-smugmugs/

JimM

My thoughts on the 7 day trial:
Like everyone else that uses Smugmug, I did my research first. I looked at the trial as more of a test. Did SM do everything they said they'd do for the my money. I didn't need to "try" the service, as much as test it. Does this make sense? I knew what I wanted, as long as it did it, I was in. If it didn't (in my case, the ability to mark-up the photos was my biggest criteria), then I was out. Of course, SM met, then exceeded my expectations... Anyone reading this, get out there and sign up... heck for $30/yr that is a couple of beers.

By the way, I am going to self-promote here. Feel free to use this referal number to save $5 on your new membership! 7QQCEz5jhIsDU

Malte

Thanks Andy!

The twins even have their own site, http://twins.smugmug.com/ .

Malte

PaulSpot

onethumb wrote:

I'm on "paternity leave" too (my twins just came home from the hospital!). (So far, that's meant that I skip sleeping for both SmugMug AND my babies instead of just SmugMug. We'll see if that changes...

Congrats!

Don

Thanks! We're enjoying our newly expanded family and posting piles of pics on smugmug