Well, that depends. You can certainly get PCs cheaper than you can Macs, but I read over and over again that feature for feature (not just processor speed, but the whole package) the Macs are very competitively priced. Andy switched to Mac for pure monetary reasons in the beginning, I believe. He could get more power per dollar out of a G5 than he could out of the PCs a year ago. Since then, he's a convert.
Well, that depended on just what lengths you were willing to go to a year ago. Build your own PC (like Shay) or buy from the Chinese NoName Computer Store in Waltham, and you could do lots better than with a mac. But it wasn't as cool. I think the coolness was the first thing that hooked Andy.
I've been waiting for a oppurtunity to say this. Steve Jobs has this amazing reality distortion field. It's probably worth $20B, minimum. His processors are slow, but he says they aren't and then guess what? Everyone "knows" they are fast. Switches to Intel and then the MacBook is 4x faster (that's what it says on the Apple web site.)
Now, if Apple would wakeup and recognize the $$ is in Software, not Hardware, run OS X on Dells, and other PCs, then we would have something...
I think Apple's doing pretty darn well, money-wise.
And their strategy is different, but not wrong. Much of Apple's strengths are the direct result of that strategy. You buy an Apple product, and it is not a hodge-podge of pieces from different developers. I like the fact that it's all from one company and that I don't have to wonder if it's the manufacturer specific BIOS or whatever the heck you PC folk have to deal with...
oh, and also I moved this from Photoshop Shenanigans to Gear.
Take my Mac Mini for example. I spent three months saving up £500 to buy a 1.42GHz machine. All my friends thought I was mad. But I believed the machien was cool (true), it was quiet (true) and it run all my applications well (false). From the sounds of it, you need a highend G4 or G5 to run Photoshop at a decent pace. Which is going into the £1000s. For £500, I could have got a 3GHz Dell with various bits and bobs - including a 17" LCD monitor.
Sure, the Intel Macs look good and will be good but it still leaves people like me lost with an outdated-technology machine. I agree that Mac is in the software, not the hardware. This whole thread speaks for that.
I like cool. Cool is good. But not if it collides with usability (which it has). Keep going, this thread is making my brain buzz!
Interesting, I always heard Office was better on the Mac. Well, maybe not Office, maybe it was just Word? The Mac version is supposed to be better, but I have no idea, I've been on the Mac since 1987.
Yeah, definitely upgrade from 512ram.
I will attest to the fact that I *think* it's better on Mac - BUT as with any bloatware, it requires some horsepower and RAM....
I would if I could work out how :. Also, how does Mac hardware compare to price-for-power to Windows machines?
Seb
DavidTO has a linky to a TCO analysis, it shows that even conservatively, Apple blows anything Windows-based away, from a TCO standpoint. That is, if your time is valuable at all.....
DavidTO has a linky to a TCO analysis, it shows that even conservatively, Apple blows anything Windows-based away, from a TCO standpoint. That is, if your time is valuable at all.....
Very interesting. However, it seems impossible that Windows will ever come out above Mac in this sheet. Also, the whole 'how much is your time worth' is a gray area for me. Updating/Patching all occurs in the background for me so I just continue working. Also, some software may not need to be purchased twice. But still interesing even if I don't agree with all aspects!
Very interesting. However, it seems impossible that Windows will ever come out above Mac in this sheet. Also, the whole 'how much is your time worth' is a gray area for me. Updating/Patching all occurs in the background for me so I just continue working. Also, some software may not need to be purchased twice. But still interesing even if I don't agree with all aspects!
Seb
13 months ago, and for years prior to that, I had as many as 5 peecees in my house that I had to administer. It was AT LEAST 2 hours a week, if not more. That's 100 hours a year. My time is priceless, so that means my Apples have cost me essentially ZERO. And Zero is how much time I have to spend "administering" the four Apple boxes in my home. Alright - MAYBE I spend 15 minutes a month - maybe.
What I mean is I can copy your copy of software, thus deriving benefit from the software without paying for it. I cannot do the same with your hardware. If I want hardware I need to pay for it and buy a piece of hardware.
Point taken, however, about pirating PC's to run OS-X. That is a form of piracy I had not considered.
Hmm, an astrophysicist? What about plain old astronomy? Astronomers are jsut about the most technically advanced photographers there are and have been since the very outset of photograhpy. They invented unsharp masking as a darkroom (not digital) technique!
The lab I work in develops instruments for very large telescopes... Most of the work running the instruments, capturing data, and reducing the data is still done with Sun Workstations. Some of this is switching to Linux, but for legacy reasons, Solaris still reigns.
More and more (though still a minority), the actual astrononomers and grad students are using Macs (and Linux to a lesser extent). Since most work is done on headless workstations, the actual terminal doesn't matter. With OS X underlying, they can do development work locally if necessary.
For actual instrument development, Windows is the only option. There is no AutoCAD or Solidworks or ZEMAX for Mac or Linux. I run Samba on a Linux server to serve my Windows domain, though.
13 months ago, and for years prior to that, I had as many as 5 peecees in my house that I had to administer. It was AT LEAST 2 hours a week, if not more. That's 100 hours a year. My time is priceless, so that means my Apples have cost me essentially ZERO. And Zero is how much time I have to spend "administering" the four Apple boxes in my home. Alright - MAYBE I spend 15 minutes a month - maybe.
It's soooo much better on this side
I can imagine. However, my mother has a Windows XP laptop which requires near zero maintenance. Windows Updates sort themselves out. McAfee Virus automatically upgrades. She does her work stuff, hotmail, Exchange connection and everything works fine. She once nearly opened a supcious .exe file but that was the cloest we have ever had to a virus!
Say what? So far I did find that a PC needs more of my time than a Mac, but that amount of time sounds a bit much to me. What the heck did you have to do in those 2 hours a week? I mean that is like about half an hour pure computer management per unit per week. I manage our own two desktops, and several in my social network, and I don't even spend 2 hours per month doing just that. And yes, my social network does include several teenagers who do not have the faintest idea of what NOT to do on a PC.
I make my living by writing software for windows. I use Microsoft development tools to develop apps with Microsoft libraries and Microsoft SDKs to run on Microsoft OS's.
Perfectly understandable. There is a big difference between using a computer, and using a computer to generate an income stream. If I was programming for the public myself I would be foolish to not consider Windows versions of whatever I wrote.
In my opinion the 'virus/spyware' issue is a little over hyped.
Not at all. A Toledo newspaper got hit hard by a virus just very recently. Delayed the publication of the paper by several hours. The only thing that saved them was a few Macintoshes in the cluster of PC's that allowed them to cobble together a paper. CNN.com has another story about a virus threat for Windows today.
The biggest problem, by far however, with security and Windows is that MICROSOFT HAS IT ALL BACKWARDS. Their software ships with all the locks turned off and expects the user to lock the appropriate doors. Apple ships secure and expects the user to open things up as need be. Guess how many Windows users know to lock the doors, or how to do so? OS-X also requires you enter an administrative password before any software can be installed. That alone is worth a lot in terms of security.
I think the most compelling argument for Windows is that it has the largest market share. More people use Windows that any other OS, and at the end of the day that means something.
Very interesting. However, it seems impossible that Windows will ever come out above Mac in this sheet. Also, the whole 'how much is your time worth' is a gray area for me. Updating/Patching all occurs in the background for me so I just continue working. Also, some software may not need to be purchased twice. But still interesing even if I don't agree with all aspects!
Seb
Hey, I don't pretend to have the expertise to vouch for the veracity of this particular document.
Sharing files/programmes with other users. For school projects, most friends use Microsoft Publisher (sigh) and they send me files. Can I open them on Mac? No chance. I have to pull up Windows. This has happened on many other occasions too.
Sharing files/programmes with other users. For school projects, most friends use Microsoft Publisher (sigh) and they send me files.
I get around that problem by using industry-standard file formats. PDF for documents, for example. Photoshop documents interchange between platforms just fine, as do JPG's and TIFF's and MP3's.
I would be surprised if Apple Works didn't open Publisher files, however.
I get around that problem by using industry-standard file formats. PDF for documents, for example. Photoshop documents interchange between platforms just fine, as do JPG's and TIFF's and MP3's.
I would be surprised if Apple Works didn't open Publisher files, however.
I always try and use industry standard file formats too. However, I can't force others to do that and if they send me a file that is not in an industry-standard format, I have no choice.
Also, AppleWorks doesn't recognise Publisher files. PageMaker used to recgonise Publisher '97 files but that was a long time ago
Wow.. I got as far as the first line.. an $1800 PC! Must be a pretty nice PC! I just checked Dell's site.. even w/ their ripoff packages, you can walk out w/ a pretty respectable PC for south of $1000. $1800 looks to buy me a significantly upgraded rig w/ all kinds of 'frills' including TV tuners and software I'll never use.
And DIY'ers will easily get a lot more mileage out of the same money.
There is no way you can condense every imaginable home computing use or need into a plug-and-chug spreadsheet like that. I could just as easily put together a spreadsheet that shows just the opposite. It totally depends on the user, their priorities, experience, and needs.
Just as an example, the spreadsheet lists subscription costs for AV and anti-spyware software. I pay nothing for these things, relying on free tools and intelligent (some could say competent) use of a firewall. Cost to me: next to nothing.
I ran a Photoshop test on my iBook G4 (1GHz G4, 640mb RAM, OS X 10.4.4). Adam Tow said his Quad G5 took 20 seconds (80 seconds with one core). My iBook took 3m49s with no other apps running. I will try in on my laptop and Mac Mini later.
Not at all. A Toledo newspaper got hit hard by a virus just very recently. Delayed the publication of the paper by several hours. The only thing that saved them was a few Macintoshes in the cluster of PC's that allowed them to cobble together a paper.
Heh. I dunno man. My office has picked up viruses once or twice over the years. But it's never taken out ALL of our workstations. And I still can't remember the last time I even detected a virus on my home PCs.
There will always be examples of folks w/ problems, on both ends of this issue.
The biggest problem, by far however, with security and Windows is that MICROSOFT HAS IT ALL BACKWARDS. Their software ships with all the locks turned off and expects the user to lock the appropriate doors.
My experience is the direct opposite! W/ XP SP2 installed on my development workstation I have to specifically authorize each and every application I write that goes anywhere near the TCP/IP stack! It's such a royal pain the ass that I turned it off on my workstation at work.
Because the bulk of the help and support information you're going to find is for the more common platform. It is my experience that you're far, far more likely to find free information available through the web or locally to fix your PC ails than your Mac issues. I admit it could be a matter of perspective; I work in the field, most of my friends work in the field, and so I travel in those circles.
That said, things are changing. OSX is a huge revival for Apple. And it's also a boost for the *nix world too. You're seeing more and more major players developing apps for *nix environments. So everything I'm saying here is liable to change, and change quickly within the next few years. But it just isn't here yet. At least not from my viewpoint. YMMV.
So everything I'm saying here is liable to change, and change quickly within the next few years. But it just isn't here yet. At least not from my viewpoint. YMMV.
[FONT=Courier, Courier New]"For the wheel's still in spin
And there's no tellin' who
That it's namin'.
For the loser now
Will be later to win
For the times they are a-changin"[/FONT]
Comments
Well, that depended on just what lengths you were willing to go to a year ago. Build your own PC (like Shay) or buy from the Chinese NoName Computer Store in Waltham, and you could do lots better than with a mac. But it wasn't as cool. I think the coolness was the first thing that hooked Andy.
I've been waiting for a oppurtunity to say this. Steve Jobs has this amazing reality distortion field. It's probably worth $20B, minimum. His processors are slow, but he says they aren't and then guess what? Everyone "knows" they are fast. Switches to Intel and then the MacBook is 4x faster (that's what it says on the Apple web site.)
I guess that's thinking different.
Catapultam habeo. Nisi pecuniam omnem mihi dabis, ad caput tuum saxum immane mittam
http://www.mcneel.com/users/jb/foghorn/ill_shut_up.au
I think Apple's doing pretty darn well, money-wise.
And their strategy is different, but not wrong. Much of Apple's strengths are the direct result of that strategy. You buy an Apple product, and it is not a hodge-podge of pieces from different developers. I like the fact that it's all from one company and that I don't have to wonder if it's the manufacturer specific BIOS or whatever the heck you PC folk have to deal with...
oh, and also I moved this from Photoshop Shenanigans to Gear.
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Sure, the Intel Macs look good and will be good but it still leaves people like me lost with an outdated-technology machine. I agree that Mac is in the software, not the hardware. This whole thread speaks for that.
I like cool. Cool is good. But not if it collides with usability (which it has). Keep going, this thread is making my brain buzz!
Seb
I will attest to the fact that I *think* it's better on Mac - BUT as with any bloatware, it requires some horsepower and RAM....
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DavidTO has a linky to a TCO analysis, it shows that even conservatively, Apple blows anything Windows-based away, from a TCO standpoint. That is, if your time is valuable at all.....
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Link? Can't find it.
Links directly to an Excel doc that will download immediately
http://www.thesecurityawarenesscompany.com/TCO/Winn%27s%20TCO%20WinTel%20vs%20Mac.xls
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Very interesting. However, it seems impossible that Windows will ever come out above Mac in this sheet. Also, the whole 'how much is your time worth' is a gray area for me. Updating/Patching all occurs in the background for me so I just continue working. Also, some software may not need to be purchased twice. But still interesing even if I don't agree with all aspects!
Seb
The pirating is done.
13 months ago, and for years prior to that, I had as many as 5 peecees in my house that I had to administer. It was AT LEAST 2 hours a week, if not more. That's 100 hours a year. My time is priceless, so that means my Apples have cost me essentially ZERO. And Zero is how much time I have to spend "administering" the four Apple boxes in my home. Alright - MAYBE I spend 15 minutes a month - maybe.
It's soooo much better on this side
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Point taken, however, about pirating PC's to run OS-X. That is a form of piracy I had not considered.
A former sports shooter
Follow me at: https://www.flickr.com/photos/bjurasz/
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More and more (though still a minority), the actual astrononomers and grad students are using Macs (and Linux to a lesser extent). Since most work is done on headless workstations, the actual terminal doesn't matter. With OS X underlying, they can do development work locally if necessary.
For actual instrument development, Windows is the only option. There is no AutoCAD or Solidworks or ZEMAX for Mac or Linux. I run Samba on a Linux server to serve my Windows domain, though.
I can imagine. However, my mother has a Windows XP laptop which requires near zero maintenance. Windows Updates sort themselves out. McAfee Virus automatically upgrades. She does her work stuff, hotmail, Exchange connection and everything works fine. She once nearly opened a supcious .exe file but that was the cloest we have ever had to a virus!
Seb
Say what? So far I did find that a PC needs more of my time than a Mac, but that amount of time sounds a bit much to me. What the heck did you have to do in those 2 hours a week? I mean that is like about half an hour pure computer management per unit per week. I manage our own two desktops, and several in my social network, and I don't even spend 2 hours per month doing just that. And yes, my social network does include several teenagers who do not have the faintest idea of what NOT to do on a PC.
Not at all. A Toledo newspaper got hit hard by a virus just very recently. Delayed the publication of the paper by several hours. The only thing that saved them was a few Macintoshes in the cluster of PC's that allowed them to cobble together a paper. CNN.com has another story about a virus threat for Windows today.
The biggest problem, by far however, with security and Windows is that MICROSOFT HAS IT ALL BACKWARDS. Their software ships with all the locks turned off and expects the user to lock the appropriate doors. Apple ships secure and expects the user to open things up as need be. Guess how many Windows users know to lock the doors, or how to do so? OS-X also requires you enter an administrative password before any software can be installed. That alone is worth a lot in terms of security.
Why? How does that impact my life as a Mac user?
A former sports shooter
Follow me at: https://www.flickr.com/photos/bjurasz/
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Hey, I don't pretend to have the expertise to vouch for the veracity of this particular document.
Dgrin FAQ | Me | Workshops
Sharing files/programmes with other users. For school projects, most friends use Microsoft Publisher (sigh) and they send me files. Can I open them on Mac? No chance. I have to pull up Windows. This has happened on many other occasions too.
Seb
Sorry Dave
I would be surprised if Apple Works didn't open Publisher files, however.
A former sports shooter
Follow me at: https://www.flickr.com/photos/bjurasz/
My Etsy store: https://www.etsy.com/shop/mercphoto?ref=hdr_shop_menu
Also, AppleWorks doesn't recognise Publisher files. PageMaker used to recgonise Publisher '97 files but that was a long time ago
I was not at all offended. That's just my sense of humor.
Dgrin FAQ | Me | Workshops
- Macs are eaiser to use = FACT
- Macs have a nicer UI = FACT
- The Intel Macs will give good competition to Windows = FACT
- All my G4 Macs are near-hopeless for any serious work
- The high end Macs are very powerful
- The high end Macs are expensive (inital investment anyway)
- The low end Macs are not powerful
- Most important apps seem to run on both
- Most important apps seem to perform about the same on both
- For 'basic' work, a Mac Mini is fine
- For 'intensive' RAW processing or Photoshop processing, a Mac Mini is not fine
Please keep the comments coming. It is great to have so many interesting people on Digital GrinSeb
And DIY'ers will easily get a lot more mileage out of the same money.
There is no way you can condense every imaginable home computing use or need into a plug-and-chug spreadsheet like that. I could just as easily put together a spreadsheet that shows just the opposite. It totally depends on the user, their priorities, experience, and needs.
Just as an example, the spreadsheet lists subscription costs for AV and anti-spyware software. I pay nothing for these things, relying on free tools and intelligent (some could say competent) use of a firewall. Cost to me: next to nothing.
Seb
There will always be examples of folks w/ problems, on both ends of this issue. My experience is the direct opposite! W/ XP SP2 installed on my development workstation I have to specifically authorize each and every application I write that goes anywhere near the TCP/IP stack! It's such a royal pain the ass that I turned it off on my workstation at work. Because the bulk of the help and support information you're going to find is for the more common platform. It is my experience that you're far, far more likely to find free information available through the web or locally to fix your PC ails than your Mac issues. I admit it could be a matter of perspective; I work in the field, most of my friends work in the field, and so I travel in those circles.
That said, things are changing. OSX is a huge revival for Apple. And it's also a boost for the *nix world too. You're seeing more and more major players developing apps for *nix environments. So everything I'm saying here is liable to change, and change quickly within the next few years. But it just isn't here yet. At least not from my viewpoint. YMMV.
[FONT=Courier, Courier New]"For the wheel's still in spin
And there's no tellin' who
That it's namin'.
For the loser now
Will be later to win
For the times they are a-changin"[/FONT]
There is our culture today class.