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Hello Everyone I'm the FNG

SystemSystem Registered Users Posts: 8,186 moderator
edited September 24, 2004 in Cameras
Hello everyone. I am new to this forum, but not new to how a forum works. Please forgive me if I dropped this question in the wrong spot. MOD's feel free to hit me upside the head. I'm just going to drop this question right away and if anybody can help that would be pretty sweet. I have researched this and asked many questions, but I might find something different out here.

Looking forward of spending hours of my busy life sucked into another forum. This looks like a good one.....

I stumbled on this site looking through different forums, and I found
> your site.
>
> I have a small question. I just started photography a few months ago.
> I have no formal training, and I'm waiting for my GI Bill to be
> unscrewed by the government so I can go to schoo to learn this stuff.
(if you don't believe me I have the link where channel 5 interviewed me)
> Until that happens I will read a lot and ask questions...I own the
> Panasonic Z-F10 I haven't purchased any accerssories for the camera
> yet, and I have not been all that imressed with it yet. Until I saw
> your pictures. I have been getting noise in my pictures all the time,
> unless it's outside, and the lighting conditions are perfect. I take a
> lot of pictures in a low light conditions..Clubs, and on stage. Even
> outside pictures with a low light still give me noise. It's really a
> pain in the butt, and even photoshop can't fix everything. Flashes,
> filters, and the Cannon TL-55 looks like that should be a purchase. Any
> help would be appreciated.
>
> Thank You

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    DavidTODavidTO Registered Users, Retired Mod Posts: 19,160 Major grins
    edited September 21, 2004
    Hello everyone. I am new to this forum, but not new to how a forum works. Please forgive me if I dropped this question in the wrong spot. MOD's feel free to hit me upside the head. I'm just going to drop this question right away and if anybody can help that would be pretty sweet. I have researched this and asked many questions, but I might find something different out here.

    Looking forward of spending hours of my busy life sucked into another forum. This looks like a good one.....

    I stumbled on this site looking through different forums, and I found
    > your site.
    >
    > I have a small question. I just started photography a few months ago.
    > I have no formal training, and I'm waiting for my GI Bill to be
    > unscrewed by the government so I can go to schoo to learn this stuff.
    (if you don't believe me I have the link where channel 5 interviewed me)
    > Until that happens I will read a lot and ask questions...I own the
    > Panasonic Z-F10 I haven't purchased any accerssories for the camera
    > yet, and I have not been all that imressed with it yet. Until I saw
    > your pictures. I have been getting noise in my pictures all the time,
    > unless it's outside, and the lighting conditions are perfect. I take a
    > lot of pictures in a low light conditions..Clubs, and on stage. Even
    > outside pictures with a low light still give me noise. It's really a
    > pain in the butt, and even photoshop can't fix everything. Flashes,
    > filters, and the Cannon TL-55 looks like that should be a purchase. Any
    > help would be appreciated.
    >
    > Thank You

    In very simple terms, the lower the light, the harder your camera has to work to get a good exposure. The harder your camera works, the more noise.

    The measure of speed is ISO. The lower the number, the slower the speed. In this case, speed means sensitivity to light. ISO 100 is less sensitive to light than ISO 1600. That means it either needs more light or a longer exposure. ISO100 works well for daylight and other brightly lit scenes. For low-light situations, you need ISO 1600 or better. This means more noise. In film it meant more grain, but in digital it now means more noise. There are ways to avoid noise, but with concert footage, there's fewer options. You can get noise reduction software, like Dfine, Noise Ninja.

    That's my basic understanding of it, but others may be able to add more.
    Moderator Emeritus
    Dgrin FAQ | Me | Workshops
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    pathfinderpathfinder Super Moderators Posts: 14,700 moderator
    edited September 21, 2004
    Hello everyone. I am new to this forum, but not new to how a forum works. Please forgive me if I dropped this question in the wrong spot. MOD's feel free to hit me upside the head. I'm just going to drop this question right away and if anybody can help that would be pretty sweet. I have researched this and asked many questions, but I might find something different out here.

    Looking forward of spending hours of my busy life sucked into another forum. This looks like a good one.....

    I stumbled on this site looking through different forums, and I found
    > your site.
    >
    > I have a small question. I just started photography a few months ago.
    > I have no formal training, and I'm waiting for my GI Bill to be
    > unscrewed by the government so I can go to schoo to learn this stuff.
    (if you don't believe me I have the link where channel 5 interviewed me)
    > Until that happens I will read a lot and ask questions...I own the
    > Panasonic Z-F10 I haven't purchased any accerssories for the camera
    > yet, and I have not been all that imressed with it yet. Until I saw
    > your pictures. I have been getting noise in my pictures all the time,
    > unless it's outside, and the lighting conditions are perfect. I take a
    > lot of pictures in a low light conditions..Clubs, and on stage. Even
    > outside pictures with a low light still give me noise. It's really a
    > pain in the butt, and even photoshop can't fix everything. Flashes,
    > filters, and the Cannon TL-55 looks like that should be a purchase. Any
    > help would be appreciated.
    >
    > Thank You
    There are a number of factors that increase the digital noise in an image.

    The first factor is the size of the photon sensor wells in the image sensor - the smaller the sensor and the higher the pixel count tend to increase noise. The short version is cheaper cameras with smaller sensors have more noise than expensive cameras with larger sensors.ne_nau.gif

    Second - the higher ISO the image is shot at, generally the more noise - you said the noise is not bad outdorrs in sunlight - lower ISOs - but real bad in clubs ets - dark area -> Higher ISOs -> much higher noise. If you shoot the camera in automatic, it will automatically increase the ISO indoors in dimmer illumination.

    Third - real long expsure times increase noise also, but this is probably not pertinent unless you are shooting with a triod as the long exposures are to long to hand hold and get a quality image.

    Automatic Point and Shoots WILL have more noise than the ELectronic Viewfinder cameras which will have more noise thatn the Pro grade digital SLRs with their bigger sensors and bigger pixel wells.

    Noise Ninja - a software program - can help some, but more light, lower ISOs, and better sensors still rule. Physics still counts I am afraid:D
    Pathfinder - www.pathfinder.smugmug.com

    Moderator of the Technique Forum and Finishing School on Dgrin
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    Steve CaviglianoSteve Cavigliano Super Moderators Posts: 3,599 moderator
    edited September 21, 2004
    I agree with everything cited in the posts above. Low light is a tough task for any camera and more so with a small sensored cam. Clubs and stage shots are going to be tough with any digital, IMHO. As you mention, the image noise will be greater in any underexposed area and there will always be underexposed areas within your club and show images.

    I'd definitely suggest looking into an external flash. This will help lessen the noise in the area it covers. You'll still have lots of noise in the areas outside the flash's coverage, but you can use Noise Ninja, Neat Image, etc to reduce it. Plus, if you lose some detail in the background, it's usually not a bad thing. Losing detail in your main subject is :-(

    If you cannot use a flash for certain shots, then you will have to take what you can get and noise reduce during post. Either that, or look into buying a camera with a larger sensor (and larger photosites) and some fast glass. This solution would improve the image noise issue, dramatically. Although this solution could open up a whole new can of worms (lens changing, no live preview, sensor dust and having $2000 worth of camera and lens around your neck in crowded clubs, or shows :-O )

    Good luck,
    Steve

    I can't think of any filters that would help you get a better exposure in these types of shooting venues
    SmugMug Support Hero
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    SystemSystem Registered Users Posts: 8,186 moderator
    edited September 21, 2004
    Thank you for the advice. That helps me a lot. Is there an external flash that you suggest I buy? I will be researching this, but if you can point me in the right direction that would be most excellent. I purcashed a DVD to help me out understand my camera a little bit better. It's a little dry, but it gets the information across. So once I get an external flash I can drop my ISO, and that should help. With these other programs that you mentioned. I own Adobe Photoshop CS, and I just change modes to lab, and clean up the "A" and "B" channels with the blur tool, and that seems to help. Do these programs do the same thing, or is that an investment I need to purchase? Thanks again. I will be watching my DVD tonight, and playing around with my camera again. I think I have out grown my camera already. I think I might take a peak at the National Camera Exchange in Minneapolis. Any Suggestions? I like my Macro, but I love the zoom as well. I seen mentioned a few times people adding the Cannon TL-55. I tried looking that bad boy up, but I come up with different search results. Is that a real expensive toy?
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    wxwaxwxwax Registered Users Posts: 15,471 Major grins
    edited September 22, 2004
    Hi Undo wave.gif

    You might find this page interesting, your camera with lots of different lenses attached.

    Adding extra lenses will either give you more zoom, or give you a wider angle, depending upon the lens. I don't particularly care for the optional zoom lens on my Canon G3... it's not sharp, and it lets in even less light when attached. In other words, it makes the camera even slower.

    I've tried shooting in bars and clubs many times, and it's the hardest shooting I've done. The lighting is usually impossibly low. So don't despair too much. Using a flash will make a huge difference, not all of it good. The flash will not only light-up your subject, it will also light-up the stage and the background, making everything ugly, in my humble opinion.

    If you're looking for a flash, you should start by searching for external flashes that are compatible with your camera. That will immediately narrow the field. I've going to experiment with adding a "snoot" to my flash. It's a hood that restricts the light coming out. My hope is that it will allow the flash to only illuminate the subject, and not the background. We'll see.

    Again, don't despair, shooting low-light clubs and bars is very, very tough. Someday, you'll shoot a stage that's properly lit, and the difference will be dramatic.

    Oh, and if you're asking if there's anything better out there than Photoshop CS, the answer is no. naughty.gif
    Sid.
    Catapultam habeo. Nisi pecuniam omnem mihi dabis, ad caput tuum saxum immane mittam
    http://www.mcneel.com/users/jb/foghorn/ill_shut_up.au
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    Steve CaviglianoSteve Cavigliano Super Moderators Posts: 3,599 moderator
    edited September 22, 2004
    Undo,

    WX's link was awesome. There are so many lens combos on that page that you could buy a 1Ds MkII with the money spent...lol FWIW, I think you should be able to pick up the TL-55 for about $90 at places like Adorama. As for a flash,
    I read where quite a few of FZ10 owners are using the Sunpak 383. It's a super generic flash that works well on most digitals. You might want to visit this forum. http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/forum.asp?forum=1033 (please forgive me, I'm a newbie here and don't know how to link to this link using just a word, like Wx did) Wx is also correct about the flash lighting up areas you do not want lit. If you get an external flash, you can look into some flash accessories like softboxes and pocket bouncers (Lumiquest or StoFen). They will help you reduce the flash's coverage area, as well as it's close-in intensity.

    My advice about noise reduction/removal software would be to go check them out so you can make up your own mind. There are some excellent free ones out there (De-noise Deluxe, Noiseware and Helicon), as well as trial versions of Neat Image and Noise Ninja. You should be able to find all of these download sites using a Google search rolleyes1.gif
    The FZ10 is a very capable performer. You may, or may not, have outgrown it. IMO, you need to keep in mind that every camera has it's limits. Small sensored cameras are not the best tool for low light, or low light with action. You are using a $600 tool to capture scenes where a $2000+ tool would do a better job. That's not to say that you can't get satisfactory results when using them in these scenarios. Especially if you put in the time (the more low light scenes you shoot, the better you will become) and do some post processing work. Plus, as I mentioned in my earlier post, you won't be scared spitless carrying a $2000+ kit around your neck in a dark, smoky club :-O

    PSCS is probably the most full featured software solution for post processing. It's easy enough to start using without little or no training, yet it can take a person years to master it. I've been working with PS for over 2 years and I am still a Novice headscratch.gif

    Good luck,
    Steve
    SmugMug Support Hero
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    lynnmalynnma Registered Users, Retired Mod Posts: 5,208 Major grins
    edited September 22, 2004
    Hello everyone. I am new to this forum, but not new to how a forum works. Please forgive me if I dropped this question in the wrong spot. MOD's feel free to hit me upside the head. I'm just going to drop this question right away and if anybody can help that would be pretty sweet. I have researched this and asked many questions, but I might find something different out here.

    Looking forward of spending hours of my busy life sucked into another forum. This looks like a good one.....

    I stumbled on this site looking through different forums, and I found
    > your site.
    >
    > I have a small question. I just started photography a few months ago.
    > I have no formal training, and I'm waiting for my GI Bill to be
    > unscrewed by the government so I can go to schoo to learn this stuff.
    (if you don't believe me I have the link where channel 5 interviewed me)
    > Until that happens I will read a lot and ask questions...I own the
    > Panasonic Z-F10 I haven't purchased any accerssories for the camera
    > yet, and I have not been all that imressed with it yet. Until I saw
    > your pictures. I have been getting noise in my pictures all the time,
    > unless it's outside, and the lighting conditions are perfect. I take a
    > lot of pictures in a low light conditions..Clubs, and on stage. Even
    > outside pictures with a low light still give me noise. It's really a
    > pain in the butt, and even photoshop can't fix everything. Flashes,
    > filters, and the Cannon TL-55 looks like that should be a purchase. Any
    > help would be appreciated.
    >
    > Thank You
    Hi Undowave.gif Welcome to the forum.. this is the place to learn thats for sure.. look forward to seeing your club shots.
    Lynn
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    ginger_55ginger_55 Registered Users Posts: 8,416 Major grins
    edited September 22, 2004
    I think we should have a tutorial on using a word to direct people places. Not just from here, but say I want to direct my dog club to something here, I don't know if I can do that.

    And I would like to be able to use a word, too.

    Some of you know that my Rebel is in for repairs, and I am using my Canon Elph. Also some of you may know that I messed up a shot with a noise problem and entered it in the Challenge, it was not in the finals. The noise bothered some, did not bother others. It would be a great shot for me to try all the free downloads on, if my computer were not having problems. I am trying to figure out how those things, the noise reducers, work. If it is by blur or something, well, we can do that in PS, and not only CS.

    Now I am so tempted to take my Rebel to a club and try it. I think I could work it. The one thing I have found with it, compared to the Rebel, I tried taking it to the same night view, with lights and all, that I had taken the "losing" shot with the Rebel. After the Rebel was in for Repairs, I took the Canon Elph to the same place. It could not handle the shooting at the night lights at midnight. It just couldn't. That does not mean that I could not get a shot there, it just meant that I had to change my strategy. I could not get the same shot.

    I do think these better cameras have more flexibility. I have no problem with carrying 2000.00 around my neck at a nightclub, bar, dive, where ever. I do know that I dance better with a smaller camera, but then I am an old lady soon to be 65.

    I saw a photographer who was photographing a musician, I saw her get down on the floor at his feet with her big old camera, and she shot up. I did not have the urge to do that. And if no large distracting lights were involved, she could have gotten a good shot. I did get a good shot of the same musician, he was playing a harmonica, I got it with the elph over a year ago. Inside, at a more formal event I got a good shot of a men's chorus, also with the Elph over a year ago, and with the Rebel this year.

    anyway, just some ramblings.
    more flexibility with the bigger cameras, I like mine,
    but they are no guarantee.

    ginger
    After all is said and done, it is the sweet tea.
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    SystemSystem Registered Users Posts: 8,186 moderator
    edited September 22, 2004
    Thank you everyone. The links are most appreciated. Now I have to figure out what kind of flash, and lenses I want. I find it fun to take pictures of fast moving objects, but I have been taking 8x10 shots of bands in a controlled enviornment. I know I need a better flash that's for sure. I watched the DVD last night to educate myself more about my camera. I'll post what DVD it was when I get home. Very educational, and not that boring. OK back to work..Working in a State Prison sucks sometimes. Especialy when it's nice out and I want to take some nice fall pictures.
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    AndyAndy Registered Users Posts: 50,016 Major grins
    edited September 22, 2004
    attn ginger and steve (re underlining links)
    y'all take a look right here y'hear??
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    Steve CaviglianoSteve Cavigliano Super Moderators Posts: 3,599 moderator
    edited September 24, 2004
    Andy,

    Thanks for the help. I must be dense though. I followed the directions. I properly position my cursor and have the link copied (Ctl +C) and ready to be pasted. Then I left click the "insert link" icon and all I get is the hyperlink screen. The one that you paste the url into. I can't get the first screen to come up eek7.gif When I paste the url into the hyperlink screen, it shows, as if I pasted it directly into the message.

    I know I'm missing something obvious, but what?


    Steve
    SmugMug Support Hero
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    AndyAndy Registered Users Posts: 50,016 Major grins
    edited September 24, 2004
    Andy,

    Thanks for the help. I must be dense though. I followed the directions. I properly position my cursor and have the link copied (Ctl +C) and ready to be pasted. Then I left click the "insert link" icon and all I get is the hyperlink screen. The one that you paste the url into. I can't get the first screen to come up eek7.gif When I paste the url into the hyperlink screen, it shows, as if I pasted it directly into the message.

    I know I'm missing something obvious, but what?


    Steve

    i'll hep you next week live and in person :D

    see you wed or thursday. let's talk on monday so we can make a plan....
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    ginger_55ginger_55 Registered Users Posts: 8,416 Major grins
    edited September 24, 2004
    Andy,

    Thanks for the help. I must be dense though. I followed the directions. I properly position my cursor and have the link copied (Ctl +C) and ready to be pasted. Then I left click the "insert link" icon and all I get is the hyperlink screen. The one that you paste the url into. I can't get the first screen to come up eek7.gif When I paste the url into the hyperlink screen, it shows, as if I pasted it directly into the message.

    I know I'm missing something obvious, but what?


    Steve
    Steve, I am so glad you belong to dgrin. I am soo glad you actively post.

    Almost makes me feel like I have company in a total lack of computer savvy.

    I just saw this, so I haven't been to that link yet. But Chuck posted to clear things up in a couple of sentences. There was a whole sentence that I couldn't read, not and understand the words.

    ginger
    After all is said and done, it is the sweet tea.
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    Steve CaviglianoSteve Cavigliano Super Moderators Posts: 3,599 moderator
    edited September 24, 2004
    Andy,

    Thanks, and Monday it is. It's been real warm here (mid-80's) and very little fog on the coast clap.gif This may be the last time that I shoot SF with the 828. I'm probably going to have to place it with a loving family, to help pay for glass :cry

    I can't wait to see your 20D. I have to wear a bib everytime I visit the 20D forums....lol

    Ginger,
    Thank you for the kind welcome thumb.gif I'm sure Andy will get me straightened out (if that's possible ;-) Now that I'm beginning to feel comfortable, I hope to spend more time here. You are one of a very fine group of people that have made me feel at home here. Maybe I'll even ask Andy how to use those little emoticons at the bottom of this message page....lol

    Thanks again,
    Steve
    SmugMug Support Hero
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