Glass does make a difference!

David Stevens · February 25, 2006

Excellent shots and yes glass does definitely make a difference.:):

patrickbeil · February 25, 2006

David Stevens wrote:

Excellent shots and yes glass does definitely make a difference.:):

Thanks, David.

winger · February 25, 2006

I have been thinking the last couple of months selling my 24-70L for a 85 lens......

I know primes are generally sharper than zooms....but lately I am just not satisfied....even with my L's!!!!

DanielB · February 25, 2006

winger wrote:

lately I am just not satisfied....even with my L's!!!!

then give them to meeee:D

i'll do a straight up trade, i'll go buy a new 85 1.8 and you give me your 24-70

its a done deal

Steve Cavigliano · February 25, 2006

Nice job Patrick

Yep, that 85mm F1.8 is a jewel

L performance, in a non-L lens. Just wait until you do some head and shoulders shots with it. Schweeeeeeet!!!

I am amazed that the Tamron did as well as it did. I never used it for b-ball because it's not a very fast focuser. Your shots look very good though.

Steve

patrickbeil · February 25, 2006

Steve Cavigliano wrote:

Nice job Patrick

Yep, that 85mm F1.8 is a jewel L performance, in a non-L lens. Just wait until you do some head and shoulders shots with it. Schweeeeeeet!!!

I am amazed that the Tamron did as well as it did. I never used it for b-ball because it's not a very fast focuser. Your shots look very good though.

Steve

Thanks, Steve.

It is a jewel - at a bargain price, too! I am thrilled with it.

That shot with the Tamron was one out of a couple hundred! It is a sloooow focuser. I was amazed at the focusing speed of the 85. In fact, I changed the auto-focus control to the * button, because the darn thing refocuses so fast that a lot of my shots were out of focus - they guy behind - or in front - or the referee(!) became the target.

I am anxious to try it (*) out ( i switched it this morning).

Do others with a 20D have the camera custom functions set up this way?

If so, I would like to hear some feedback/opinions on it...How well does it work? Do the BIG cameras function this way?

Steve Cavigliano · February 25, 2006

Patrick,
I use both methods (* and the shutter release). I think the CF * method is faster and easier to use once you get the hang of it. But, I don't really see "better focusing". Maybe it's there and I just am not aware of it. I believe I get the same % of sharp shots and mis-focuses using either method

I do know that I really became aware of this issue and it caused me to really concentrate on getting the right subject in focus. So I do a ton of 1/2 pressing before firing (or sometimes, without firing).

Steve

Frog Lady · February 25, 2006

patrickbeil wrote:

because the darn thing refocuses so fast that a lot of my shots were out of focus - they guy behind - or in front - or the referee(!) became the target.

Patrick, what are you using for autofocus points? I shoot soccer and had the same problem until I switched to using the center focus point only. It's still not always a 100% perfect, but it is much better than the camera chosing the subject.

looks like you'll have fun w/ your new lens. I also recently had the same epiphany and now shoot my soccer games w/ the 100-400 L. That, combined w/ the Canon 20D, have made a world of difference.

good luck w/ the focusing issue and enjoy.

C.

System · February 25, 2006

great action shots!

love the color and clarity and dof in #2 (you got the block?, even get player #5 focused and background blurred)

george

patrickbeil · February 25, 2006

Steve Cavigliano wrote:

Patrick,
I use both methods (* and the shutter release). I think the CF * method is faster and easier to use once you get the hang of it. But, I don't really see "better focusing". Maybe it's there and I just am not aware of it. I believe I get the same % of sharp shots and mis-focuses using either method

I do know that I really became aware of this issue and it caused me to really concentrate on getting the right subject in focus. So I do a ton of 1/2 pressing before firing (or sometimes, without firing).

Steve

Steve, the more I think about it, the more I see that it is about me, and my need to concentrate on getting the right subject in focus. I found myself half-pressing the shutter button continuously to try and get the focus "right". I am experimenting to find the technique that works best with this lens.

I even tried manual focus, to a spot on the floor, under the basket, where the action usually happens. That did not work too well though, as the action moved more than I anticipated, and I was not quick enough to respond manually.

I am anxious to try the * button - I set it to start AF when pressed.

What I am realizing is that to continue to improve, I must keep trying to improve my techniques. It is not just point and shoot anymore! The camera only does what I make it do, eh? So thanks, Steve, as always for your comments. I appreciate what you do for this thread.

I'll let you know what works best for me.

patrickbeil · February 25, 2006

Frog Lady wrote:

Patrick, what are you using for autofocus points? I shoot soccer and had the same problem until I switched to using the center focus point only. It's still not always a 100% perfect, but it is much better than the camera chosing the subject.

looks like you'll have fun w/ your new lens. I also recently had the same epiphany and now shoot my soccer games w/ the 100-400 L. That, combined w/ the Canon 20D, have made a world of difference.

good luck w/ the focusing issue and enjoy.

C.

C.-

I have been all over with the focus points. I started at center, went to all 9, back to center, then I tried one of the lower diagonal points, thinking that while shooting vertical, by using the lower points in the frame would enable me to keep more of the frame "higher" to get the players as they jumped. That seemed to help some, but the jury is still out on that one. I need to keep better records so I can assess more accurately what actually happened.

I love the new lens. The frustrations with focus are the kind of frustrations I like - much better than my Rebel xt and the inexpensive 75-300 f/3.5-5.6 trying to photograph night time soccer... that was frustrating!!

I will keep at it - I am encouraged by my results - I will post what I find out, if I can figure it out!

patrickbeil · February 25, 2006

gefillmore wrote:

great action shots!

love the color and clarity and dof in #2 (you got the block?, even get player #5 focused and background blurred)

george

George,

The lens is making me look good! I keep trying to improve. The blur is so easy with this setup. I am thrilled with the lens... I highly recommend it!

Jeffro · February 26, 2006

Frog Lady wrote:

Patrick, what are you using for autofocus points? I shoot soccer and had the same problem until I switched to using the center focus point only. It's still not always a 100% perfect, but it is much better than the camera chosing the subject.

looks like you'll have fun w/ your new lens. I also recently had the same epiphany and now shoot my soccer games w/ the 100-400 L. That, combined w/ the Canon 20D, have made a world of difference.

good luck w/ the focusing issue and enjoy.

C.

i shoot motocross with my 20D, select all 9 points, on AI servo, focus on the subject with the center point, then keep holding the shutter button half way down to allow tracking, then snap the shot when ready. If you set the focus on the center point you have to keep that point on the subjcet the entire time, or you miss focus. Set it to all 9, start with the center point, and if you subjcet wonders across the field of view the other points kick in.

winger · February 26, 2006

DanielB wrote:

then give them to meeee:D

i'll do a straight up trade, i'll go buy a new 85 1.8 and you give me your 24-70 its a done deal

.... I was thinking of selling the 24-70 buying the 85 and making two car payments.....but thanks for the offer....its tempting.

winger · February 26, 2006

patrickbeil wrote:

I even tried manual focus, to a spot on the floor, under the basket, where the action usually happens. That did not work too well though, as the action moved more than I anticipated, and I was not quick enough to respond manually.

For basketball the only time I use the manual focus is for the tip off. Well more so I leave the autofocus on, focus on the guys that will be doing the tiping off....then turn the Autofocus off. Because other wise there is like a billion (and what i mean 10 plus 3 officals...so like a billion) guys running around the court throwing stuff off.

Other wise I do the AI servo, center focus and I track alot. I get more keepers than losers....proably I dunno 70%. But over the last year or so I have also learned about shooting smarter and not filling up 3 CF cards. Making going through them after alot quicker!

patrickbeil · February 26, 2006

Jeffro wrote:

i shoot motocross with my 20D, select all 9 points, on AI servo, focus on the subject with the center point, then keep holding the shutter button half way down to allow tracking, then snap the shot when ready. If you set the focus on the center point you have to keep that point on the subjcet the entire time, or you miss focus. Set it to all 9, start with the center point, and if you subjcet wonders across the field of view the other points kick in.

Jeffro,

Thanks for your reply.
I tried that for a while, but I was not sure if it was able to differentiate between all the bodies banging around under the basketball, so I switched back to center focus, ai servo.

And, I wanted to see if I was giving up anything with those settings.

Any disadvantages to doing it this way?

patrickbeil · February 26, 2006

winger wrote:

patrickbeil wrote:

I even tried manual focus, to a spot on the floor, under the basket, where the action usually happens. That did not work too well though, as the action moved more than I anticipated, and I was not quick enough to respond manually.

For basketball the only time I use the manual focus is for the tip off. Well more so I leave the autofocus on, focus on the guys that will be doing the tiping off....then turn the Autofocus off. Because other wise there is like a billion (and what i mean 10 plus 3 officals...so like a billion) guys running around the court throwing stuff off.

Other wise I do the AI servo, center focus and I track alot. I get more keepers than losers....proably I dunno 70%. But over the last year or so I have also learned about shooting smarter and not filling up 3 CF cards. Making going through them after alot quicker!

I would have replied earlier, but I was going through the billions (about 200) of pics I took Friday night!!

Actually, I am trying to get smart about the number of shots I take. Thanks for the reply - I hadn't thought about an acceptable level of OOF. I was being unrealistic to expect that ALL of the would be in focus!

Is the "track a lot" accomplished by the half-press on the shutter?

Frog Lady · February 26, 2006

patrickbeil wrote:

Is the "track a lot" accomplished by the half-press on the shutter?

when I track, I'm constantly re-half-pressing the shutter, so the lens will focus quicker on the actual shot that I want/am trying to get (full shutter press). Winger, is that what you meant?

C.

winger · February 27, 2006

Frog Lady wrote:

when I track, I'm constantly re-half-pressing the shutter, so the lens will focus quicker on the actual shot that I want/am trying to get (full shutter press). Winger, is that what you meant?

C.

Well kind of both. I am half pressing the shutter alot. but also I find by following the play, rather than just pointing and shooting you get alot more in focus photos, because your camera is ready to shoot....I also try really hard to never put the camera down. You can get some great shots that happen just after the play, reaction shots (or in hockey just after the play passes the puck is usually when hits along the boards happen....havent been able to get any mid ice hits yet though!)

And you will also start to see ways in which you can use your camera to make it perform better. I have found constantly zooming the lense just makes it that much hard for the autofocus to lock (with sports that is proably the weakest link on cameras, the speed of the game vs the speed of your auto focus, and the lower the light situation the longer it will take to focus....), so now I dont zoom as much (like in basketball kind of 3 stages, UMass does block alot of shots so I will have it all the way out to get some great defensive shoots, then zoom in to get some mid court of the guards bring the ball up, then all the way out to get stuff under the hoop I am sitting under)

Does that make sense?

patrickbeil · February 27, 2006

winger wrote:

Well kind of both. I am half pressing the shutter alot. but also I find by following the play, rather than just pointing and shooting you get alot more in focus photos, because your camera is ready to shoot....I also try really hard to never put the camera down. You can get some great shots that happen just after the play, reaction shots (or in hockey just after the play passes the puck is usually when hits along the boards happen....havent been able to get any mid ice hits yet though!)

And you will also start to see ways in which you can use your camera to make it perform better. I have found constantly zooming the lense just makes it that much hard for the autofocus to lock (with sports that is proably the weakest link on cameras, the speed of the game vs the speed of your auto focus, and the lower the light situation the longer it will take to focus....), so now I dont zoom as much (like in basketball kind of 3 stages, UMass does block alot of shots so I will have it all the way out to get some great defensive shoots, then zoom in to get some mid court of the guards bring the ball up, then all the way out to get stuff under the hoop I am sitting under)

Does that make sense?

Yes, it does. Thanks for your explanation. It helps me to understand how it is you are shooting. Following the action with the center point seems to be critical in achieving the results we strive for.

Jeffro made an interesting point about using all nine focus points to keep the target in focus, even if it wanders off the center point. Do you have any experience with this technique?

Thinking back to Fri night, I can think of times when I got lazy and was not following the action as aggressively as I could have. When I saw the play developing, I moved the camera to catch up to the play, but changing the target caused the camera to delay focusing just some milliseconds, but by the time I was ready, the play was over.

There are many times I wished I had had my camera "up" - those are real opportunities lost.

Thanks to everyone who is contributing - this is a big help!

Frog Lady · February 27, 2006

winger wrote:

Well kind of both. I am half pressing the shutter alot. but also I find by following the play, rather than just pointing and shooting you get alot more in focus photos, because your camera is ready to shoot....I also try really hard to never put the camera down. You can get some great shots that happen just after the play...

Does that make sense?

thanks, yeah it does make sense. I essentially do the same. By tracking, I meant follow the play and while I'm doing that, I continously do the half shutter press to reduce the time it takes to focus. And I know what you mean about dealing w/ zoom and how it slows the cameras response down. Luckily, soccer isn't as rapid paced as bb (but it can move pretty quickly)

I also try to "shoot smart" and not just click at everything. I am set in burst mode, but don't use it as often as I could (I know I could be missing something...).

Thanks to every one who participated - I know I learned stuff. That's the cool thing about this forum

cheers,

C.

winger · February 27, 2006

patrickbeil wrote:

Yes, it does. Thanks for your explanation. It helps me to understand how it is you are shooting. Following the action with the center point seems to be critical in achieving the results we strive for.

Jeffro made an interesting point about using all nine focus points to keep the target in focus, even if it wanders off the center point. Do you have any experience with this technique?

Thinking back to Fri night, I can think of times when I got lazy and was not following the action as aggressively as I could have. When I saw the play developing, I moved the camera to catch up to the play, but changing the target caused the camera to delay focusing just some milliseconds, but by the time I was ready, the play was over.

There are many times I wished I had had my camera "up" - those are real opportunities lost.

Thanks to everyone who is contributing - this is a big help!

To first respond of froglady. I have the camera set to burst mode, but rarely do I shoot rapid fire. I just leave it there for situations where I am unsure of the action and the single shot mode wont move fast enough, but 97% of the time I am just shooting singles anyways.

In terms of Autofocus I just use the center one. Most of the shots I am taking are for media guides/ newspaper. So really I am just looking for dead on good quality action shots. When I have time during a game I may want to experiment with more "artsy" shots, but then I would move it to "one shot" mode anyways.

Otherwise with Hockey and hoops especially (even lax too), there are alot of people moving in confined areas, and I dont want it to leave it to the camera as to what it "thinks" i want in focus. I try to shoot photos in the camera correctly as I know very little about PS, but I do have to crop sometimes because I shoot with the center focus.

Yeah even I get lazy, or I end up watching the play and some great action happens and my camera is NO WHERE near my eye. Which makes me sort of thankful for my crazy schedule lately. I shot Lax, Hockey, and Hoops this weekend and I think it was my first time shooting in like a month, so it helped sort of rewened my interested at a time of the year where my shots sort of get stale anyways.

But glad I can be of help!

winger · February 27, 2006

Frog Lady wrote:

thanks, yeah it does make sense. I essentially do the same. By tracking, I meant follow the play and while I'm doing that, I continously do the half shutter press to reduce the time it takes to focus. And I know what you mean about dealing w/ zoom and how it slows the cameras response down. Luckily, soccer isn't as rapid paced as bb (but it can move pretty quickly)

yeah I sort of was talking about both, because one made me think of the other. Tracking I do the same thing you are talking about, but it also made me realise something I discoverd about the zoom lenses so I thought I would share.

Steve Cavigliano · February 27, 2006

Patrick,
I tried "All Points" once or twice, but got results I didn't like. As Winger points out, using all focus points lets the camera determine which subject should be in focus. I found that most of the time (especially where there are many palyers in the frame, or with a contrasting background) the camera picked a different subject to focus on than I would have

Center point all the way for me

Steve

Jeffro · February 27, 2006

The great sensor debate!

Steve Cavigliano wrote:

Patrick,
I tried "All Points" once or twice, but got results I didn't like. As Winger points out, using all focus points lets the camera determine which subject should be in focus. I found that most of the time (especially where there are many palyers in the frame, or with a contrasting background) the camera picked a different subject to focus on than I would have

Center point all the way for me

Steve

Actually using all 9 points in AI Servo doesn't allow the camera to choose which of the 9 points is used. It starts with the center, and as you hold the shutter button half way down it tracks the subject, while I do the same, even if it drifts off to a different sensor. If you select all 9 sensors in "one shot" or "AI Focus" the camera selects what it thinks you are shooting....I never use this. As always there is personal preference, but when I went from center sensor in AI Servo to all 9 in AI Servo, my number of missed motocross action shots was greatly reduce. I shoot 500 plus shots at any given race.

Frog Lady · February 27, 2006

Jeffro wrote:

Actually using all 9 points in AI Servo doesn't allow the camera to choose which of the 9 points is used. It starts with the center, and as you hold the shutter button half way down it tracks the subject, while I do the same, even if it drifts off to a different sensor. If you select all 9 sensors in "one shot" or "AI Focus" the camera selects what it thinks you are shooting....I never use this. As always there is personal preference, but when I went from center sensor in AI Servo to all 9 in AI Servo, my number of missed motocross action shots was greatly reduce. I shoot 500 plus shots at any given race.

correct me if I'm wrong, but when I had my camera in burst mode (=AI servo, right?), and I tracked like I do now (i.e., w/ the half shutter), I ended up w/ a much greater number of shots of associated players in sharper focus than the player I was interested in. That's when I switched to the single center point focus. The one thing I should point out, when I 1st switched, I was still using my old dReb and Tameron 28-200 lens; now I shoot w/ a 20D and canon 100-400 L and just set it to center point based on my past experiences. So, I guess I'm wondering now is if the difference is due to camera/lens and not center point focusing per se? Any thoughts?

C.

Steve Cavigliano · February 27, 2006

Frog Lady wrote:

correct me if I'm wrong, but when I had my camera in burst mode (=AI servo, right?), and I tracked like I do now (i.e., w/ the half shutter), I ended up w/ a much greater number of shots of associated players in sharper focus than the player I was interested in. That's when I switched to the single center point focus. The one thing I should point out, when I 1st switched, I was still using my old dReb and Tameron 28-200 lens; now I shoot w/ a 20D and canon 100-400 L and just set it to center point based on my past experiences. So, I guess I'm wondering now is if the difference is due to camera/lens and not center point focusing per se? Any thoughts?

C.

Colleen,

You can shoot in continuous mode (burst) without being in AI Servo. The AF/WB button allows you to select One Shot/AI Focus/AI Servo. The ISO/Drive button allows you to select Single shooting/continuous shooting (burst)/self-timer. So continuous shooting of bursts can be done in any of the 3 AF modes.

Jeffro brings up a good point about AI Servo. Which should mean that you can use all 9 points and still basically be using the center point. I've got to tell you that the theory and real life results diverge greatly.

You can try it and if it works, more power to ya

For me, the only time all 9 points works is shooting flying birds against a cloudless sky. Even then I'll get a sharp wing and soft eyes on more occassions than when using the center point

Steve

Frog Lady · February 28, 2006

Steve Cavigliano wrote:

You can shoot in continuous mode (burst) without being in AI Servo. The AF/WB button allows you to select One Shot/AI Focus/AI Servo. The ISO/Drive button allows you to select Single shooting/continuous shooting (burst)/self-timer. So continuous shooting of bursts can be done in any of the 3 AF modes.

well, whatta ya know. Learn something new every day. Thanks Steve. Turns out I did have the 20D in AI servo mode (as well as burst). I went back to look at my old dReb and didn't see a similar disjunction of the burst/AI servo. Maybe it's not as obvious? Any way, next time I shoot the kids soccer, I'll check out the difference between AI servo 9 points vs center point focus and see how it works on the 20D.

C.

Glass does make a difference!

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