20D technical question

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  • mercphotomercphoto Registered Users Posts: 4,550 Major grins
    edited February 28, 2006
    winger wrote:
    Ok now that I am looking through.....maybe its I just didnt notice the differences before......I never said I wasnt insane.
    I, myself, can easily get into a situation where I start over-analyzing what I am doing and what results I am getting. You might be doing that to yourself. Also I find that its easy for the photographer to be overly critical of their own work, when their customers find it fantastic. It has helped me, for example, to hear from my motocross customers how much they like my photographers. It serves to remind me that I am obsessing when I shouldn't. What are your customers saying?
    So I guess that just leaves me to my custom white balance question, why when I balance of white home jerseys (or snow) does it go to blue?????
    The snow question can be answered with a search on dgrin forums. In short, on a bright day snow is slightly blue because of reflecting blue sky. White jerseys might be the same thing.

    Personally I'm surprised your 20D isn't good enough at auto white balance for daylight outdoor sports. I always shoot AWB for karts, motocross. The indoor stuff I can understand problems with AWB.
    Bill Jurasz - Mercury Photography - Cedar Park, TX
    A former sports shooter
    Follow me at: https://www.flickr.com/photos/bjurasz/
    My Etsy store: https://www.etsy.com/shop/mercphoto?ref=hdr_shop_menu
  • DoctorItDoctorIt Administrators Posts: 11,951 moderator
    edited February 28, 2006
    winger wrote:
    I never said I wasnt insane.
    Yeah, but I did! lol3.gif
    Erik
    moderator of: The Flea Market [ guidelines ]


  • ginger_55ginger_55 Registered Users Posts: 8,416 Major grins
    edited February 28, 2006
    I would really like an answer to this question re tapping the shutter, a few posts back, but I need an answer. I would copy the whole thing for shenanigans or something, but my PC is not cooporating with the copy feature right now.

    This is where the question is:

    http://dgrin.com/showpost.php?p=258459&postcount=27

    Please, it has been a very on going problem.

    Winger I think your shots are fine. One, in sports they probably are not going to be blown up sky high, and you are not posting in the nature thread.

    But my bird shots are OOF, not soft, OOF, the ones coming straight on, and that is with a good lock. I don't work them up so I have none to show you. The sole, single, in focus shot, I could show you, amazed me, but it would not prove any points. However I shoot like 400 or more now, photos at a time, so I have had a lot of experience NOT GETTING shots of birds coming straight at me. And I know I have a good lock, everything looks fine to me until I look up close in the LCD.

    ginger (IT is the same thing with my dogs running towards me. I can have them off leash on the beach a good distance away. follow them with a good lock towards me. OOF, just always OOF. That would be something the rest of you could try if you own dogs.............you could see what I am talking about.)
    After all is said and done, it is the sweet tea.
  • DavidTODavidTO Registered Users, Retired Mod Posts: 19,160 Major grins
    edited February 28, 2006
    winger wrote:
    So I guess that just leaves me to my custom white balance question, why when I balance of white home jerseys (or snow) does it go to blue?????


    White in RGB is 256R 256B 256G. By default it's neutral. This means that if you're trying to correct for a color cast, anything white or nearly white is a poor choice, since it will tend towards neutral anyway. You're better off finding a middle gray for setting your white balance with the eyedropper.

    Same for black, BTW. 0R 0B 0G. anything near black will naturally skew towards neutral as RGB struggles to represent a very dark color.
    Moderator Emeritus
    Dgrin FAQ | Me | Workshops
  • wingerwinger Registered Users Posts: 694 Major grins
    edited February 28, 2006
    mercphoto wrote:
    Personally I'm surprised your 20D isn't good enough at auto white balance for daylight outdoor sports. I always shoot AWB for karts, motocross. The indoor stuff I can understand problems with AWB.

    Just for clarification the only time I would custom white balance outside is if I am shooting a scenic photo that had alot of snow, other wise the AWB is prefectly fine.....

    but the blue effect I am having with the indoor shots, is similar to what you get when you dont custom white balance with snow. And I havent changed a thing......so I didnt know if my camera is freaking out...because well I have used it well beyond "its expected life expectancy of 100,000 shots"

    And people are buying mystuff yeah, but I see other photograhpers output, ones I sit next too, that compoistion wise i dont think are as good, but they are sharper and pop more. Maybe its a matter of me taking the summer to really learn PS when I am finally done with school.....
    ginger_55 wrote:

    Winger I think your shots are fine. One, in sports they probably are not going to be blown up sky high, and you are not posting in the nature thread.
    And some of my shots have been blown up to large banner sizes....they dont appear as sharp as comparitive banners from the other photograhper.

    Maybe its my technique......because in all honesty I feel like the composition of my stuff is better than his, but his stuff is always tack sharp and pops....and its not like I am comparing OOF or soft images, that would be simple.
  • mercphotomercphoto Registered Users Posts: 4,550 Major grins
    edited February 28, 2006
    winger wrote:
    And people are buying mystuff yeah, but I see other photograhpers output, ones I sit next too, that compoistion wise i dont think are as good, but they are sharper and pop more. Maybe its a matter of me taking the summer to really learn PS when I am finally done with school.....


    And some of my shots have been blown up to large banner sizes....they dont appear as sharp as comparitive banners from the other photograhper.

    Maybe its my technique......because in all honesty I feel like the composition of my stuff is better than his, but his stuff is always tack sharp and pops....and its not like I am comparing OOF or soft images, that would be simple.
    I guess a few things to consider. One, maybe your 20D is wore out after all. Can you rent one for a day and find out? Borrow one?

    Two, what are you doing in post, if anything?
    Bill Jurasz - Mercury Photography - Cedar Park, TX
    A former sports shooter
    Follow me at: https://www.flickr.com/photos/bjurasz/
    My Etsy store: https://www.etsy.com/shop/mercphoto?ref=hdr_shop_menu
  • wxwaxwxwax Registered Users Posts: 15,471 Major grins
    edited February 28, 2006
    winger wrote:
    And people are buying mystuff yeah, but I see other photograhpers output, ones I sit next too, that compoistion wise i dont think are as good, but they are sharper and pop more. Maybe its a matter of me taking the summer to really learn PS when I am finally done with school.....
    The pop is all about post-processing. I'm sure you could batch process to get it, too. I'm sure you could come up with a simple work flow for each sport, that includes basic sharpening.

    Of all your problem shots, the only one that looks really bad is the second basketball player. It kinda looks like some of the floor behind him is in focus. I assume your autofocus is simply grabbing the wrong thing in a fast moving, low-light environment. ne_nau.gif
    Sid.
    Catapultam habeo. Nisi pecuniam omnem mihi dabis, ad caput tuum saxum immane mittam
    http://www.mcneel.com/users/jb/foghorn/ill_shut_up.au
  • mercphotomercphoto Registered Users Posts: 4,550 Major grins
    edited February 28, 2006
    wxwax wrote:
    The pop is all about post-processing. I'm sure you could batch process to get it, too. I'm sure you could come up with a simple work flow for each sport, that includes basic sharpening.
    For better colors I run my racing images through the "more vivid color" action from http://home.att.net/~ncarboni/DigiPhoto.html. I personally know the author, and his Photoshop actions are pretty good. The more vivid color action attempts to replicate Fuji Velvia feel. For sharpening I use a high pass filter. It seems to work very well for the racing images I take. Don't know how it would do with the soccer/b-ball pictures. I shoot 20D, in-camera large-fine JPG, Parameters 1.
    I assume your autofocus is simply grabbing the wrong thing in a fast moving, low-light environment. ne_nau.gif
    I notice I need to be very careful with my 20D and keeping the center focus point on the subject of interest. It is easy to let it drift, and then the images suffer as a result.
    Bill Jurasz - Mercury Photography - Cedar Park, TX
    A former sports shooter
    Follow me at: https://www.flickr.com/photos/bjurasz/
    My Etsy store: https://www.etsy.com/shop/mercphoto?ref=hdr_shop_menu
  • DJ-S1DJ-S1 Registered Users Posts: 2,303 Major grins
    edited February 28, 2006
    Some good AF info here straight from Canon, lots of stuff I didn't know. Talks about the 1-series but it applies to all the Canon dSLRs.


    Also look here, under Tips and Techniques, Sharpening RAW images. Also from Canon. That one is kind of long winded, but this guy recommends way more sharpening than I currently use and he says that your RAW images should look soft straight off the camera.
  • ginger_55ginger_55 Registered Users Posts: 8,416 Major grins
    edited February 28, 2006
    DJ-S1 wrote:
    Some good AF info here straight from Canon, lots of stuff I didn't know. Talks about the 1-series but it applies to all the Canon dSLRs.


    Also look here, under Tips and Techniques, Sharpening RAW images. Also from Canon. That one is kind of long winded, but this guy recommends way more sharpening than I currently use and he says that your RAW images should look soft straight off the camera.

    Then why do some look in focus straight off the camera????

    hahahaahaha

    However, mine are oof!!!!! When the bird/dog is coming towards me.

    ginger
    After all is said and done, it is the sweet tea.
  • wingerwinger Registered Users Posts: 694 Major grins
    edited February 28, 2006
    mercphoto wrote:
    I guess a few things to consider. One, maybe your 20D is wore out after all. Can you rent one for a day and find out? Borrow one?

    Two, what are you doing in post, if anything?

    Yeah I was thinking about comparing my equipment, I was sitting next to one of the hallmark photograhpy students at the hoops game and her stuff looked sharp, we were shooting with the same equipment (then again we were looking at LCD screens so what is that really???)
    But yeah I think I will look into borrowing or renting another 20D

    I really do very little in post, if anything at all.


    hmmm so maybe I just need to learn to watch the center point focus
    AND
    break down and learn photoshop
    (there was is a short workshop class held by the local community rec programs, but its on the same night i have class, the advance class is on a night that i can take but assumes i know about layers, which i know they exist) so it may just have to wait for the summer and maybe I just have to learn to deal with the photos till then, and maybe improve with the Center focus a little
  • Bob BellBob Bell Registered Users Posts: 598 Major grins
    edited February 28, 2006
    Ginger sorry if you were waiting on me.

    If I have an egret or GBH or hawk or something coming at me, I switch to one shot and constantly reaquire focus using the center point only. If you are used to rolling your finger to shoot, just roll it on and off, essentially tapping the AF.

    I do have a lot of issues of my own with birds in flight but I learned this technique last year with a 1DmkII and football trying to keep the center point on the player with the ball and not drift over to the tackler.

    Hope this helps. It might be a bad habit of mine but I really don't use the other focus points for birds or sports.
    Bob
    Phoenix, AZ
    Canon Bodies
    Canon and Zeiss Lenses
  • DoctorItDoctorIt Administrators Posts: 11,951 moderator
    edited February 28, 2006
    winger wrote:
    I really do very little in post, if anything at all.

    AND
    break down and learn photoshop
    I joke a lot about this, and since you're a good friend I'll be honest: I've always been amazed at how good your photos are for shooting all JPGs and doing no post. But seriously, you've hit a wall! You can't expect to compete on a pro level without post. That'd be like Ansel Adams getting famous just by selling his slides. Uh, no, ain't gonna happen. Half the art is in the development, that's why only the top of the line cameras have RAW capability - to give you all the light information for you to develop as you see fit. You want to be a pro, you gotta learn how to develop your photos. Even the mkII ain't no magic box, so don't fall back on that.

    Suck it up Winga. How many times have I offered??? Hmm, hmmm??

    Tough love. iloveyou.gif
    Erik
    moderator of: The Flea Market [ guidelines ]


  • wingerwinger Registered Users Posts: 694 Major grins
    edited February 28, 2006
    DoctorIt wrote:
    I joke a lot about this, and since you're a good friend I'll be honest: I've always been amazed at how good your photos are for shooting all JPGs and doing no post. But seriously, you've hit a wall! You can't expect to compete on a pro level without post. That'd be like Ansel Adams getting famous just by selling his slides. Uh, no, ain't gonna happen. Half the art is in the development, that's why only the top of the line cameras have RAW capability - to give you all the light information for you to develop as you see fit. You want to be a pro, you gotta learn how to develop your photos. Even the mkII ain't no magic box, so don't fall back on that.

    Suck it up Winga. How many times have I offered??? Hmm, hmmm??

    Tough love. iloveyou.gif

    Yeah I know, once I am done with school I promise. And If im still in this state you are soooo my tutor.
    (the good news is I have been shooting raw/JPEG for about a year now, so I have a LARGE collection of raw files to work with, so I had intentions to learn I swear)
  • mercphotomercphoto Registered Users Posts: 4,550 Major grins
    edited February 28, 2006
    winger wrote:
    Yeah I know, once I am done with school I promise. And If im still in this state you are soooo my tutor.
    (the good news is I have been shooting raw/JPEG for about a year now, so I have a LARGE collection of raw files to work with, so I had intentions to learn I swear)
    I'm going to disagree with DoctorIt about the RAW part of things. That is not your problem. Probably 99% of the event shooters shoot JPG. Your competition, whose photos you think are sharper and have more pop, are probably shooting JPG. Ask them, I think it will surprise you.

    RAW is good. But it is over-hyped. It is NOT a necessity for good photography, especially the sports shots you take. I feel about RAW the way Shay feels about LAB.

    However, he is correct that you need to do something in post. Images straight from the camera won't cut it. Its just that you can do those things with the JPG and in a batch manner, save yourself a bunch of manual labor.

    Shoot large-fine JPG, Parameters 1, sRGB color space. Do mild color and sharpening in post, something you can batch.

    Not trying to start a RAW vs. JPG thread, and even I shoot RAW under certain scenarios. But your sports photography shouldn't warrant using RAW to get the results you want.
    Bill Jurasz - Mercury Photography - Cedar Park, TX
    A former sports shooter
    Follow me at: https://www.flickr.com/photos/bjurasz/
    My Etsy store: https://www.etsy.com/shop/mercphoto?ref=hdr_shop_menu
  • DoctorItDoctorIt Administrators Posts: 11,951 moderator
    edited February 28, 2006
    mercphoto wrote:
    I'm going to disagree with DoctorIt
    Yeah, well, we can agree to disagree.

    However, let me reiterate what we agree on, but in slightly different terms: YOU are smarter than your 20D! Do not think for one second that the code and processing parameters in that tiny box are the word of a higher being. YOU should be making the final say in how your picture looks!

    And I won't get into a debate, the but truth is Winger doesn't know, so I get my one retort to your post:

    YES, merc is right, you can totally do this with JPG, and it probably is easier for sports. However, for the record, RAW is just that, RAW. By making changes to JPG's you're not starting from scratch, you are trying to fix something the camera already decided on.

    I'll make you a deal, learn how to do RAW in a tutorial setting, just so you really understand what YOU are doing v. what the 20D is doing onboard when it makes a jpg. After that, you can shoot all the jpg you want, forever*. Yeah?

    *because the second truth is, the 8mp 20D jpg files are so big and clean, you have quite a bit of leeway with the information thats in there. its all just a matrix of numbers after all
    :D
    Erik
    moderator of: The Flea Market [ guidelines ]


  • mercphotomercphoto Registered Users Posts: 4,550 Major grins
    edited March 1, 2006
    DoctorIt wrote:
    Yeah, well, we can agree to disagree.

    However, let me reiterate what we agree on, but in slightly different terms: YOU are smarter than your 20D! Do not think for one second that the code and processing parameters in that tiny box are the word of a higher being. YOU should be making the final say in how your picture looks!
    You're assuming that I have not already decided that I like the look of the in-camera JPG... ;) Truth is I've shot RAW+JPG and processed them both. For what I do, for the shots I take, for the amount of effort I can justify spending on 1,000 photos on a weekend, there is zero difference. Let's be realistic, I just uploaded 1630 photos from one race on Sunday. I'm not going to individually tweak each photo for optimum appearance. This is why I say Raw is over-hyped, and those that say "only shoot raw" live in an alternate reality ;) (those who say "only shoot jpg" are, of course, in the same boat)

    My problem, Eric, is that you appear to say "only shoot raw". Correct me if I'm wrong about that. Winger's current problems do not require RAW to solve, but doing so will create extra work and extra time (even if batched).

    Its unclear to me if the following was directed to Winger or myself:
    I'll make you a deal, learn how to do RAW in a tutorial setting, just so you really understand what YOU are doing v. what the 20D is doing onboard when it makes a jpg. After that, you can shoot all the jpg you want, forever*. Yeah?

    Winger, send me a outdoor soccer image of yours that you took recently that you think is a bit soft and dull. Email the photo to mercphoto@mac.com. I'll take 30 seconds at it and post the results later this evening.
    Bill Jurasz - Mercury Photography - Cedar Park, TX
    A former sports shooter
    Follow me at: https://www.flickr.com/photos/bjurasz/
    My Etsy store: https://www.etsy.com/shop/mercphoto?ref=hdr_shop_menu
  • DoctorItDoctorIt Administrators Posts: 11,951 moderator
    edited March 1, 2006
    mercphoto wrote:
    My problem, Eric, is that you appear to say "only shoot raw". Correct me if I'm wrong about that. Winger's current problems do not require RAW to solve, but doing so will create extra work and extra time (even if batched).
    You DO want to start a debate!!! lol3.gif

    And you're dead wrong, I never said shoot only RAW. In fact... did you even read what I just wrote?
    doctorit wrote:
    I'll make you a deal, learn how to do RAW in a tutorial setting, just so you really understand what YOU are doing v. what the 20D is doing onboard when it makes a jpg. After that, you can shoot all the jpg you want, forever*. Yeah?

    *because the second truth is, the 8mp 20D jpg files are so big and clean, you have quite a bit of leeway with the information thats in there. its all just a matrix of numbers after all

    I just wrote a whole bunch and deleted it, you've got your view, but I know Winger much better so I'm sticking to my guns: I'm not debating, trying to help a friend with a specific problem. That problem being: not becoming a better shooter, but overcoming a fear of what a digital image is/has potential to be.

    Erik
    moderator of: The Flea Market [ guidelines ]


  • mercphotomercphoto Registered Users Posts: 4,550 Major grins
    edited March 1, 2006
    DoctorIt wrote:
    And you're dead wrong, I never said shoot only RAW.
    You're right, I looked again. Apologies.
    I just wrote a whole bunch and deleted it, you've got your view, but I know Winger much better so I'm sticking to my guns: I'm not debating, trying to help a friend with a specific problem. That problem being: not becoming a better shooter, but overcoming a fear of what a digital image is/has potential to be.
    We're both trying to help her, in different ways. Mine is an immediate fix to her JPG workflow to improve existing images. If I'm correct about this we could even setup a batch and she could run all her existing images through and get an improvement. You are trying to help her with the future by learning how to manipulate raw. Nothing wrong with either approach.
    Bill Jurasz - Mercury Photography - Cedar Park, TX
    A former sports shooter
    Follow me at: https://www.flickr.com/photos/bjurasz/
    My Etsy store: https://www.etsy.com/shop/mercphoto?ref=hdr_shop_menu
  • rich56krich56k Registered Users Posts: 547 Major grins
    edited March 2, 2006
    Kudos to Mercphoto....(re:NCarboni/digiphoto)
    mercphoto wrote:
    For better colors I run my racing images through the "more vivid color" action from http://home.att.net/~ncarboni/DigiPhoto.html. I personally know the author, and his Photoshop actions are pretty good. The more vivid color action attempts to replicate Fuji Velvia feel. For sharpening I use a high pass filter. It seems to work very well for the racing images I take. Don't know how it would do with the soccer/b-ball pictures. I shoot 20D, in-camera large-fine JPG, Parameters 1.
    WOW !! Thanks for this post!! I stumbled across it last nite and checked out Noel Carbonis site / offerings and for a PS/CS newby it was heaven sent!!
    Noel just spent a considerable amount of time walking me thru his pre- packaged "actions" to create custom-super actions (YEAH!!) (I bought last nite) Its the best $15.00 i ever spent!!
    I shoot cycle drags (20D-jpeg l/fine-p1 also) and also come home w/800+ shots /event --i bulk edit bad/good/great in iPhoto using slideshow ratings system to get down to 70-130 keepers but then spent way to long tweeking or no time just posting (no-post!) West coast Drags start in March now I'm really ready!!
    Thanks: Bill!! and Noel!!
    pass the word - check this out!!! Photoshop Actions For Sale!!

    http://home.att.net/~ncarboni/DigiPhoto.html
    http://HooliganUnderground.com
    Member: ASMP; EP; NPPA; CPS
  • AndyAndy Registered Users Posts: 50,016 Major grins
    edited March 2, 2006
    DoctorIt wrote:

    Suck it up Winga. How many times have I offered??? Hmm, hmmm??

    Tough love. iloveyou.gif

    And I, too, have offered, plently of free service for dear Winger, going back to the "yellow" ice.... Now, if you want it, it'll cost you a cake or something. naughty.gif
  • ginger_55ginger_55 Registered Users Posts: 8,416 Major grins
    edited March 2, 2006
    Bob Bell wrote:
    Ginger sorry if you were waiting on me.

    If I have an egret or GBH or hawk or something coming at me, I switch to one shot and constantly reaquire focus using the center point only. If you are used to rolling your finger to shoot, just roll it on and off, essentially tapping the AF.

    I do have a lot of issues of my own with birds in flight but I learned this technique last year with a 1DmkII and football trying to keep the center point on the player with the ball and not drift over to the tackler.

    Hope this helps. It might be a bad habit of mine but I really don't use the other focus points for birds or sports.

    I use the center point exclusively, almost, too. That doesn't do it, I mean I am staring straight at a locked in "in focus" bird coming straight at me, I shoot it, then I do it again, and again. Get home and not quite in focus, in fact, it would not pass the Andy/Harry test.

    I do leave it on servo, what diff would "one shot" do?

    ginger
    After all is said and done, it is the sweet tea.
  • Bob BellBob Bell Registered Users Posts: 598 Major grins
    edited March 2, 2006
    ginger_55 wrote:
    I use the center point exclusively, almost, too. That doesn't do it, I mean I am staring straight at a locked in "in focus" bird coming straight at me, I shoot it, then I do it again, and again. Get home and not quite in focus, in fact, it would not pass the Andy/Harry test.

    I do leave it on servo, what diff would "one shot" do?

    ginger

    To me it seems that when on servo and shooting something straight on, when focus is lost, the lenses moves and if you take an image before it relocks it will be soft. Had that happen on a heron last weekend. I think, and it might be me, but it seems like you control when it focus locks with one shot better than servo. Maybe I am just too impatient.
    Bob
    Phoenix, AZ
    Canon Bodies
    Canon and Zeiss Lenses
  • wingerwinger Registered Users Posts: 694 Major grins
    edited March 3, 2006
    Andy wrote:
    And I, too, have offered, plently of free service for dear Winger, going back to the "yellow" ice.... Now, if you want it, it'll cost you a cake or something. naughty.gif

    Ok I can totally send some of grandma wingers cookies....they are a work favorite. And you are still on my to do list......but just from wed 4am I havent stopped moving....between job interviews, work, school and taking care of my dad it keeps getting pushed off....Unless you want me to call at 2am :)

    Its not like I dont want to learn, I swear.

    And I will dig up a soccer pic for you mercer and maybe send it today...no promises.....
  • DoctorItDoctorIt Administrators Posts: 11,951 moderator
    edited March 3, 2006
    heck, for cookies, I'll do your post processing FOR you! :D
    Erik
    moderator of: The Flea Market [ guidelines ]


  • mercphotomercphoto Registered Users Posts: 4,550 Major grins
    edited March 3, 2006
    ginger_55 wrote:
    I use the center point exclusively, almost, too. That doesn't do it, I mean I am staring straight at a locked in "in focus" bird coming straight at me, I shoot it, then I do it again, and again. Get home and not quite in focus, in fact, it would not pass the Andy/Harry test.

    I do leave it on servo, what diff would "one shot" do?
    I don't know if this is what is happening to you or not. But I have found that a 20D can be hard to track small moving objects on. You have to be very, very careful about keeping the center point on the object. This is hard to do if the object is small.

    If I had to bet, Ginger, I'd say that your camera is drifting into focusing on the sky (i.e. background) and is causing your out of focus shots. Just a guess.

    I would try AI-Servo focusing with all focus points on, see what happens. This mode will aquire initial focus on the center point, and then follow the main subject to the other focus points. It may or may not help.

    I think the fact that a 1D Mark II has so many focus points, and points that are so closely spaced, is part of what makes it so good at focus tracking. Oh... to dream...
    Bill Jurasz - Mercury Photography - Cedar Park, TX
    A former sports shooter
    Follow me at: https://www.flickr.com/photos/bjurasz/
    My Etsy store: https://www.etsy.com/shop/mercphoto?ref=hdr_shop_menu
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