ever since ive owned a dslr ive always kept my dial on Av ( well i do use the action mode for soccer ) but I never use just manual (M). Anyway, am i missing something by not using M?
ever since ive owned a dslr ive always kept my dial on Av ( well i do use the action mode for soccer ) but I never use just manual (M). Anyway, am i missing something by not using M?
troy
I have recently moved from Av&Tv modes to the M mode myself after reading Shay's tute on the zone system. I like the control and consistency - don't think I'm going back.
Also, I think you're limiting yourself by using the action mode for soccer. Try using the Tv mode. You can keep the shutter speed up to stop action. Those canned programs just don't cut it for the variable conditions encountered.
Greg "Tis better keep your mouth shut and be thought of as an idiot than to open your mouth and remove all doubt"
I have recently moved from Av&Tv modes to the M mode myself after reading Shay's tute on the zone system. I like the control and consistency - don't think I'm going back.
Also, I think you're limiting yourself by using the action mode for soccer. Try using the Tv mode. You can keep the shutter speed up to stop action. Those canned programs just don't cut it for the variable conditions encountered.
regarding soccer: using the 20D with say the 70-200 IS F/2.8 using the "action mode or whatever its called " i havent seen anybody do better with the Tv mode..... seems its hit or miss whatever you use.
i mean on the action mode the cam is choosing fast speeds to begin with, and as far as AI servo ( i think thats what its called ) seems to work ok....
what i was trying to find out was more or less this..... im shooting birds and for my purposes i have ( want to ) to use the largest aperature f/5.6 anyway.... and I always want the best bokeh i can get.... so what would i benefit from using M mode? for a SPECIFIC APERATURE isnt there only one correct shutter speed for a proper exposure? my thinking is that my cam is choosing the correct shutter speed anyway for the aperature im using or ( very possibly ) am i wrong?
i havent seen anybody do better with the Tv mode..... seems its hit or miss whatever you use.
troy
I was thinking that action mode placed you in set parameters - aiservo, 400iso,.... What do you do if, because of lighting, the shutter is not fast enough to stop the action? I just like more control -
im shooting birds and for my purposes i have ( want to ) to use the largest aperature f/5.6 anyway.... and I always want the best bokeh i can get.... so what would i benefit from using M mode? for a SPECIFIC APERATURE isnt there only one correct shutter speed for a proper exposure? my thinking is that my cam is choosing the correct shutter speed anyway for the aperature im using or ( very possibly ) am i wrong?
troy
I don't shoot birds, yet, so this info may be bogus
For a more automated approach it sounds like you need to be in Av mode possibly with center weighted metering with birds in a canopy (treed area) and partial metering in the open. Then adjust iso if shutter is not high enough. Manual could be tricky in action type situations with variable lighting - such as under a canopy (trees).
Greg "Tis better keep your mouth shut and be thought of as an idiot than to open your mouth and remove all doubt"
There is no such thing as one correct exposure. It is all up to interpretation by the photographer. What manual allows you to do is to get consistant exposures regardless of the subject or background. It allows the photographer to inject their view, their style, their art. It forces the photographer to make decisions (right or wrong). By avoiding that and relying on the camera to robotically make decisions, you can fall into an artistic state of blah.
Let me ask you, do you ever get photos where the camera chose an exposure either to bright or too dark for the scene? Do your photos look boring? If not, then you may not benefit much from manual mode. But if you do, and you are in a situation where the light is not changing rapidly, then manual mode may give you more usable photos per session, or more photos that require less severe editing to get into a usable state.
If I am in a situation where the lighting is rapidly changing (e.g. partly cloudy day) keeping up with that manually is a chore for me, and one of the semi-auto modes is more convenient. But in a static or nearly static lighting situation, there is really no benefit to trusting the camera.
But the biggest reason to use manual I can think of for you right now is just to learn it. Learn all the modes of your camera. Know when it is most benefitial for you to use one over the other. Learning manual mode is like the school finals, the last test that says you are ready to take on the world photographically. Not knowing manual is like dropping out of school early and always wondering what could have been
Creator of Dgrin's "Last Photographer Standing" contest
"Failure is feedback. And feedback is the breakfast of champions." - fortune cookie
from Shay: Not knowing manual is like dropping out of school early and always wondering what could have been .....
well put Shay, and that's exactly why i asked the question. well it seems ( and i try to stay away from this topic, but i approach it every couple of months ) that my understanding "again" is wrong. my understanding is that there are many correct "exposures" for a scene, but that there is only one correct shutter speed for a specific aperature chosen, yeah you can force a different shutter speed for some creative "artistic" effect but isnt there only one "correct" one ( for a given aperature at a given ISO ) know what I mean??
I dont use Manual but if I did, doesnt it work like this....under what might be called normal outside lighting,
you chose an aperature that you want - let's say f/8. and then don't you select the shutter speed that brings your dial in the viewfinder to zero for what's techinally called the correct exposure?
so about boring pictures?? what ive been trying to do is getting away from always using my lens wide open and closing it down ( the light is not always cooperating however ). this was my way of trying something new and im finding obviously im getting a different qulaity of image in regards to sharpness and DOF. I didnt know if i should abandon this and just try manual.....
I dont use Manual but if I did, doesnt it work like this....under what might be called normal outside lighting,
you chose an aperature that you want - let's say f/8. and then don't you select the shutter speed that brings your dial in the viewfinder to zero for what's techinally called the correct exposure?
troy
I know you are asking Shay but here's my 2cents. It depends on the scene in the viewfinder as the what the dial or meter in you viewfinder reads. If your scene is light the correct exposure meter reading will be above center and a dark scene will be below and average scene will be in the middle. Partial metering will help you here b/c you can reduce the size of the scene you are metering, (thus the value of a spot meter).
Greg "Tis better keep your mouth shut and be thought of as an idiot than to open your mouth and remove all doubt"
from Shay: Not knowing manual is like dropping out of school early and always wondering what could have been .....
well put Shay, and that's exactly why i asked the question. well it seems ( and i try to stay away from this topic, but i approach it every couple of months ) that my understanding "again" is wrong. my understanding is that there are many correct "exposures" for a scene, but that there is only one correct shutter speed for a specific aperature chosen, yeah you can force a different shutter speed for some creative "artistic" effect but isnt there only one "correct" one ( for a given aperature at a given ISO ) know what I mean??
Is there only one correct way to write an essay paper? Is there only one way to bake a cake? Is there only one correct way to paint a flower? You quote "artistic" like it is a fringe idea. [SIZE=-1]Au Contraire![/SIZE]. That should be the motivation behind setting your exposure in the first place.
Now on to the technicals. There are three variables that control exposure. Aperture shutter speed and ISO. You may, at will, change any and all of those parameters to get the look you want and still walk away with the same "exposure".
I am expanding your horizons since you are now asking more about it. To begin with, the "correct exposure" is the place to start, but as one grows and progresses, the correct exposure is just not enough. And I think you are ready to go beyond that concept :-)
I dont use Manual but if I did, doesnt it work like this....under what might be called normal outside lighting,
you chose an aperature that you want - let's say f/8. and then don't you select the shutter speed that brings your dial in the viewfinder to zero for what's techinally called the correct exposure?
No, what you are doing there is setting the exposure to adequately expose a gray card. That has little or nothing to do with how one would want to expose a complex landscape photo. The most important part of the scene might be located at -2EV and not 0EV. See here for a blast from the past: http://www.digitalgrin.com/showthread.php?t=40
so about boring pictures?? what ive been trying to do is getting away from always using my lens wide open and closing it down ( the light is not always cooperating however ). this was my way of trying something new and im finding obviously im getting a different qulaity of image in regards to sharpness and DOF. I didnt know if i should abandon this and just try manual.....
When it comes to expanding your horizons, the sky is the limit my friend. Try it all (especially manual since that is your weak point right now) and see what excites you the most visually. Follow that excitment wherever it leads you. That is where your real enjoyment will come from, that is where a photographers style also comes from.
I am purposfully being a little vague here because precise formulas will not allow you to grow and experiment on your own and discover what excites you. You are ready for some excitment, so go get it :
Creator of Dgrin's "Last Photographer Standing" contest
"Failure is feedback. And feedback is the breakfast of champions." - fortune cookie
ever since ive owned a dslr ive always kept my dial on Av ( well i do use the action mode for soccer ) but I never use just manual (M). Anyway, am i missing something by not using M?
troy
Thank you Troy for asking this question, cause I have read this thread several times since I found it, and then I read all the reply posts that followed your question
Today......... I attempted a self portrait ha ha ha ha and tried to follow what I read here....... later I will post my result, if you laugh I will track you down and slap you okay
Thank you to Shay who once again has shared his wonderful knowledge with those of us who sometimes struggle to understand
Troy, night photography is a situation where there really is no other way than full manual.
A properly exposed panorama from multiple same exposures is another case for full manual - in fact going as far as setting the WB to a color temp or lighting type. Leave nothing for the camera to fugure for itself if you're doing pano's. Even focus should be manual.
My Smugmug
"You miss 100% of the shots you don't take" - Wayne Gretzky
I find that the lenses I shoot have a sweet spot, my 400 is at wide open 5.6 and my 70-200 IS 2.8 seems sharpest at 3.5, given those parameters I find for me I get more keepers if I shoot in the AV mode.
I very rarely stray from the AV mode on birds because Im looking for the fastest speed possible at the apeture of my lens's sweetspots, therefore for me AV works best.
I shoot most of the time at ISO 200, The nice thing for me in AV I can bracket up or down depending on the birds I shoot in a heart beat.
I go left up to two stops for white birds depending of course on how brite it gets to 11/2 stops to the right on dark birds in back lit situations.
Like everything else this is not always fullproof but it gets my job done 90% of the time.
I shoot mainly with the evaluative metering mode, sometimes I switch to partial metering on backlit subjects.
I was shooting with a freind yesterday afternoon, he ws shooting manual I was shooting my ol'e stand by AV, I kept 20% of my shots he kept 5% of his, the lighting was constantly changing and so was he, my camera's computer is way smarter than me thats for sure.....lol
I think that it boils down to the given situation, how much time you have to compose and how artistic you want to be.
Steve
Looking for the weekend, see my images at the location below, please leave a comment if you like what you see, I would love to hear from you.:):
Av and Tv are semi-Auto (or semi-manual) modes. You pick one of the 2 parameters (aperture or speed) and the camera picks the other based on metering. Using Manual you pick both of them. Probably based on the meter reading. I don't see much of a difference except you have to manually adjust the settings to adjust exposure (EV Comp) in M mode. This is easy to do in Av or Tv with the main dial.
I find Manual useful for stuff like night shots, or when I know exactly what settings I want to use (like for fireworks). Otherwise, I concur with Bodley and probably Steve above, Av works just fine for birds and sports. You choose the DOF and adjust ISO to get the speeds you need.
Comments
I have recently moved from Av&Tv modes to the M mode myself after reading Shay's tute on the zone system. I like the control and consistency - don't think I'm going back.
Also, I think you're limiting yourself by using the action mode for soccer. Try using the Tv mode. You can keep the shutter speed up to stop action. Those canned programs just don't cut it for the variable conditions encountered.
"Tis better keep your mouth shut and be thought of as an idiot than to open your mouth and remove all doubt"
i mean on the action mode the cam is choosing fast speeds to begin with, and as far as AI servo ( i think thats what its called ) seems to work ok....
what i was trying to find out was more or less this..... im shooting birds and for my purposes i have ( want to ) to use the largest aperature f/5.6 anyway.... and I always want the best bokeh i can get.... so what would i benefit from using M mode? for a SPECIFIC APERATURE isnt there only one correct shutter speed for a proper exposure? my thinking is that my cam is choosing the correct shutter speed anyway for the aperature im using or ( very possibly ) am i wrong?
troy
I was thinking that action mode placed you in set parameters - aiservo, 400iso,.... What do you do if, because of lighting, the shutter is not fast enough to stop the action? I just like more control -
I don't shoot birds, yet, so this info may be bogus
For a more automated approach it sounds like you need to be in Av mode possibly with center weighted metering with birds in a canopy (treed area) and partial metering in the open. Then adjust iso if shutter is not high enough. Manual could be tricky in action type situations with variable lighting - such as under a canopy (trees).
"Tis better keep your mouth shut and be thought of as an idiot than to open your mouth and remove all doubt"
Come on "Birders" either validate my post or save Windoze from an idiot
"Tis better keep your mouth shut and be thought of as an idiot than to open your mouth and remove all doubt"
Let me ask you, do you ever get photos where the camera chose an exposure either to bright or too dark for the scene? Do your photos look boring? If not, then you may not benefit much from manual mode. But if you do, and you are in a situation where the light is not changing rapidly, then manual mode may give you more usable photos per session, or more photos that require less severe editing to get into a usable state.
If I am in a situation where the lighting is rapidly changing (e.g. partly cloudy day) keeping up with that manually is a chore for me, and one of the semi-auto modes is more convenient. But in a static or nearly static lighting situation, there is really no benefit to trusting the camera.
But the biggest reason to use manual I can think of for you right now is just to learn it. Learn all the modes of your camera. Know when it is most benefitial for you to use one over the other. Learning manual mode is like the school finals, the last test that says you are ready to take on the world photographically. Not knowing manual is like dropping out of school early and always wondering what could have been
"Failure is feedback. And feedback is the breakfast of champions." - fortune cookie
well put Shay, and that's exactly why i asked the question. well it seems ( and i try to stay away from this topic, but i approach it every couple of months ) that my understanding "again" is wrong. my understanding is that there are many correct "exposures" for a scene, but that there is only one correct shutter speed for a specific aperature chosen, yeah you can force a different shutter speed for some creative "artistic" effect but isnt there only one "correct" one ( for a given aperature at a given ISO ) know what I mean??
I dont use Manual but if I did, doesnt it work like this....under what might be called normal outside lighting,
you chose an aperature that you want - let's say f/8. and then don't you select the shutter speed that brings your dial in the viewfinder to zero for what's techinally called the correct exposure?
so about boring pictures?? what ive been trying to do is getting away from always using my lens wide open and closing it down ( the light is not always cooperating however ). this was my way of trying something new and im finding obviously im getting a different qulaity of image in regards to sharpness and DOF. I didnt know if i should abandon this and just try manual.....
thanx for the input
troy
I know you are asking Shay but here's my 2cents. It depends on the scene in the viewfinder as the what the dial or meter in you viewfinder reads. If your scene is light the correct exposure meter reading will be above center and a dark scene will be below and average scene will be in the middle. Partial metering will help you here b/c you can reduce the size of the scene you are metering, (thus the value of a spot meter).
"Tis better keep your mouth shut and be thought of as an idiot than to open your mouth and remove all doubt"
Now on to the technicals. There are three variables that control exposure. Aperture shutter speed and ISO. You may, at will, change any and all of those parameters to get the look you want and still walk away with the same "exposure".
I am expanding your horizons since you are now asking more about it. To begin with, the "correct exposure" is the place to start, but as one grows and progresses, the correct exposure is just not enough. And I think you are ready to go beyond that concept :-)
No, what you are doing there is setting the exposure to adequately expose a gray card. That has little or nothing to do with how one would want to expose a complex landscape photo. The most important part of the scene might be located at -2EV and not 0EV. See here for a blast from the past:
http://www.digitalgrin.com/showthread.php?t=40
When it comes to expanding your horizons, the sky is the limit my friend. Try it all (especially manual since that is your weak point right now) and see what excites you the most visually. Follow that excitment wherever it leads you. That is where your real enjoyment will come from, that is where a photographers style also comes from.
I am purposfully being a little vague here because precise formulas will not allow you to grow and experiment on your own and discover what excites you. You are ready for some excitment, so go get it
"Failure is feedback. And feedback is the breakfast of champions." - fortune cookie
Thank you Troy for asking this question, cause I have read this thread several times since I found it, and then I read all the reply posts that followed your question
Today......... I attempted a self portrait ha ha ha ha
Thank you to Shay who once again has shared his wonderful knowledge with those of us who sometimes struggle to understand
Skippy (Australia)
Skippy (Australia) - Moderator of "HOLY MACRO" and "OTHER COOL SHOTS"
ALBUM http://ozzieskip.smugmug.com/
:skippy Everyone has the right to be stupid, but some people just abuse the privilege :dgrin
A properly exposed panorama from multiple same exposures is another case for full manual - in fact going as far as setting the WB to a color temp or lighting type. Leave nothing for the camera to fugure for itself if you're doing pano's. Even focus should be manual.
"You miss 100% of the shots you don't take" - Wayne Gretzky
Just my .02 worth,
I find that the lenses I shoot have a sweet spot, my 400 is at wide open 5.6 and my 70-200 IS 2.8 seems sharpest at 3.5, given those parameters I find for me I get more keepers if I shoot in the AV mode.
I very rarely stray from the AV mode on birds because Im looking for the fastest speed possible at the apeture of my lens's sweetspots, therefore for me AV works best.
I shoot most of the time at ISO 200, The nice thing for me in AV I can bracket up or down depending on the birds I shoot in a heart beat.
I go left up to two stops for white birds depending of course on how brite it gets to 11/2 stops to the right on dark birds in back lit situations.
Like everything else this is not always fullproof but it gets my job done 90% of the time.
I shoot mainly with the evaluative metering mode, sometimes I switch to partial metering on backlit subjects.
I was shooting with a freind yesterday afternoon, he ws shooting manual I was shooting my ol'e stand by AV, I kept 20% of my shots he kept 5% of his, the lighting was constantly changing and so was he, my camera's computer is way smarter than me thats for sure.....lol
I think that it boils down to the given situation, how much time you have to compose and how artistic you want to be.
Steve
http://froggy.smugmug.com/
You ain't missin' nothin'
Av and Tv are semi-Auto (or semi-manual) modes. You pick one of the 2 parameters (aperture or speed) and the camera picks the other based on metering. Using Manual you pick both of them. Probably based on the meter reading. I don't see much of a difference except you have to manually adjust the settings to adjust exposure (EV Comp) in M mode. This is easy to do in Av or Tv with the main dial.
I find Manual useful for stuff like night shots, or when I know exactly what settings I want to use (like for fireworks). Otherwise, I concur with Bodley and probably Steve above, Av works just fine for birds and sports. You choose the DOF and adjust ISO to get the speeds you need.
Steve