Hitting a Wall on Manual Shooting in Small Studio Setup with Strobes.
MalteseParrot
Registered Users Posts: 20 Big grins
I am having a dilemma; perhaps some of you may have some input?
I'm planning on retiring this summer and want to get some supplemental income from family portrait photography.
I've set up my dining room as a home portrait studio. However, I'm hitting a snag on shooting w/ strobes on manual setting. I'm getting halos, blurry shots and much overexposed shots. When I set the aperture to the metered f/stop; the shutter is WAY too slow!!! WAY too slow! The best results I've had are on the manual mode rather than Aperture or TV/Shutter Priority. (And no where did I read how to set the Shutter Speed on “TV” and then the Aperture on AV then go to Manual to shoot; but that seemed to work. Was that my imagination, or is that how it's done?) I know ONE thing for SURE, I'm going to be doing kids and pets and I need a fast shutter speed which I can’t seem to get in Aperture priority using the metered f/stop.
I'm set up in a 13' x 16' room and shoot from a centered hallway. I sold my Canon 24-70mmL lens and bought a 28-135mm Canon IS lens. I like it much better! I didn't need anything that wide, but I did need longer, for sure! Of course, using a tripod with kid/animal photography is an unreasonable limitation, so I’m hand holding.
My backdrop is Plain White Paper on a 9' roll which I cover the floor with as well to about 11 ft from the backdrop. All of this set up is taught in a course I'm taking from a female photographer in NC who specializes in a natural sort of family portrait. Perhaps you've heard of them, NOT YOUR NORMAL PHOTOGRAPHY .
(See my latest additions to my portfolio here or go to the link here:
http://trishbrown.smugmug.com/gallery/1209889
I have two backdrop lights set up about 2.5 ft from the backdrop on either side; the left backdrop light is lower as that is the side my Main Light is on. I am going to set up my Canon Speedlite over head to light the top and center of the 9' wide white backdrop paper. I have an octagonal soft box MAIN LIGHT set just to my left as close to center as possible. I shoot slightly from behind it (in the hallway opening). I am using a lens hood designed for my lens by Canon also.
I got a training DVD for beginners/intermediates to Digital SLR photography for learning to use the Canon 20D. I'm hoping I can get on the other side of this steep learning curve ASAP! I also have no background in film photography, so no experience on which to reflect. I have been unable to find anything on training to operating a camera per se. I KNOW how to compose, I know when to push the shutter and I can use PhotoShop but if I'm going to do this commercially I can't be spending THIS much time IN PhotoShop. (Or shooting 90 shots to get 1/2 doz keepers either!) I can fix some of the photos, but they are very over exposed and even have glowing edges in some cases. I do get the occasional good shot yet, can't replicate it yet. I am studying the image details as I go along but I don't really know if I'm drawing the correct conclusions. (Can you tell I exasperated?)
No matter how many times I reset my original settings on my camera menu, now using the correct sync speed (1/250 fixed) recommended by the camera manual for strobe shooting, somehow the brightness scale moves away from the "correct exposure" mark. I’m not sure yet if I should adjust the setting inside the menu or what to cure that frequent mal-alignment.
Anyway, if you have suggestions or guidance for shooting with that strobe setup to get me on the right track to begin with and if you have the time, lay it on me!!! Obviously, once I can get the basics internalized, I'll vary on this scheme. But, one step at a time...
Gratefully,
Trish
I'm planning on retiring this summer and want to get some supplemental income from family portrait photography.
I've set up my dining room as a home portrait studio. However, I'm hitting a snag on shooting w/ strobes on manual setting. I'm getting halos, blurry shots and much overexposed shots. When I set the aperture to the metered f/stop; the shutter is WAY too slow!!! WAY too slow! The best results I've had are on the manual mode rather than Aperture or TV/Shutter Priority. (And no where did I read how to set the Shutter Speed on “TV” and then the Aperture on AV then go to Manual to shoot; but that seemed to work. Was that my imagination, or is that how it's done?) I know ONE thing for SURE, I'm going to be doing kids and pets and I need a fast shutter speed which I can’t seem to get in Aperture priority using the metered f/stop.
I'm set up in a 13' x 16' room and shoot from a centered hallway. I sold my Canon 24-70mmL lens and bought a 28-135mm Canon IS lens. I like it much better! I didn't need anything that wide, but I did need longer, for sure! Of course, using a tripod with kid/animal photography is an unreasonable limitation, so I’m hand holding.
My backdrop is Plain White Paper on a 9' roll which I cover the floor with as well to about 11 ft from the backdrop. All of this set up is taught in a course I'm taking from a female photographer in NC who specializes in a natural sort of family portrait. Perhaps you've heard of them, NOT YOUR NORMAL PHOTOGRAPHY .
(See my latest additions to my portfolio here or go to the link here:
http://trishbrown.smugmug.com/gallery/1209889
I have two backdrop lights set up about 2.5 ft from the backdrop on either side; the left backdrop light is lower as that is the side my Main Light is on. I am going to set up my Canon Speedlite over head to light the top and center of the 9' wide white backdrop paper. I have an octagonal soft box MAIN LIGHT set just to my left as close to center as possible. I shoot slightly from behind it (in the hallway opening). I am using a lens hood designed for my lens by Canon also.
I got a training DVD for beginners/intermediates to Digital SLR photography for learning to use the Canon 20D. I'm hoping I can get on the other side of this steep learning curve ASAP! I also have no background in film photography, so no experience on which to reflect. I have been unable to find anything on training to operating a camera per se. I KNOW how to compose, I know when to push the shutter and I can use PhotoShop but if I'm going to do this commercially I can't be spending THIS much time IN PhotoShop. (Or shooting 90 shots to get 1/2 doz keepers either!) I can fix some of the photos, but they are very over exposed and even have glowing edges in some cases. I do get the occasional good shot yet, can't replicate it yet. I am studying the image details as I go along but I don't really know if I'm drawing the correct conclusions. (Can you tell I exasperated?)
No matter how many times I reset my original settings on my camera menu, now using the correct sync speed (1/250 fixed) recommended by the camera manual for strobe shooting, somehow the brightness scale moves away from the "correct exposure" mark. I’m not sure yet if I should adjust the setting inside the menu or what to cure that frequent mal-alignment.
Anyway, if you have suggestions or guidance for shooting with that strobe setup to get me on the right track to begin with and if you have the time, lay it on me!!! Obviously, once I can get the basics internalized, I'll vary on this scheme. But, one step at a time...
Gratefully,
Trish
:rofl ~Trish B~
0
Comments
I am going to cut your post up as I answer....Not being a canon person I will ytry to explain.....Your camera has a Max shutter / flash sync...125, 200, 250....this what you want to find out...(.okay now in manual unless your using a dedicated flash off camera)....now set your aperture to what the meter says for the iso your shooting and it should be good with in 1/2 stop or so.....the fastest you will ever be able to shoot is your cameras max flash sync speed.
End of 1st answer
Thanks Art. I did find out the Canon 20D Max sync speed is 1/250, so I set that up through the menu as indicated in the Manual for the camera. Waiting with baited breath for the rest of your comments. But, one question at this point. Why am I getting such an overexposure when using the metered f/stop?
Okay your flash sync (X sync) is 250/sec....that is great..very fast for a focal plane shutter....Now what type of meter are you using??...why I ask is some meters only want iso input and some need iso and shutter speed.
What is your main light, guide number, how powerful is the main light?
If you set your camera to 250 shutter speed and start with and aperture of say 5.6 or 8 this should be really close unless your flash units are really powerful.
Your setup sounds good to me......
I'm not a portrait photographer per se, I use models with shooting car and motorcycle ads but the basics are similar.
The 20D syncs at 250. Take your flash meter (not light meter) and pop the strobes to see what your exposure is. I try to shoot for F5.6 or F8. If I am not getting that much light, I bump up the strobes. The important thing is to push enough light to keep the aperture high.
Once you have that figured out you should be close. What I end up usually doing is averaging exposures. Find out what your shadows expose at, what your high lights expose at and use the averaging function in your meter or manually figure it out. It is very possible that you are pushing to high of an exposure on shadows blowing them away.
I recommend that you shoot leashed so you can review your images instantly on a large screen. That way if you are still off a 1/3 or a 2/3 you can use negative exposure comp.
The last thing is shoot in RAW and use ACR in photoshop to adjust exposure as needed. It does a really good job up to 1 stop.
Phoenix, AZ
Canon Bodies
Canon and Zeiss Lenses
I am confused a bit - If you are shooting with studio strobes, why do you have the camera - 20D - in Av or Tv mode at all?? Or are you using a Canon electronic flash like the 550ex, 380ex, or the 580ex? Is the Speedlight set to manual mode also or ETTL?
If you are shooting with studio strobe lighting, shoot with the camera in manual mode, and set the shutter speed at 1/200, and the aperture as needed for a correct exposure. You may need to adjust the strobes for more or less light to achieve the desired aperature and exposure match.
You cannot use a reflected light meter ( like in your camera ) against a white background and get an accurate reading with flash. I repeat, you cannot meter this situation with the meter in your 20D. You can shoot and evaluate the exposure on the histogram after the fact - once you know this it should not change.
You need an incident light meter for flash, like a Sekonic 358, capable of reading the incident flash lighting. Once you know this information, the exposure should always be almost the same, since the light is controlled by your studio flashes and does not change.
You said "No matter how many times I reset my original settings on my camera menu, now using the correct sync speed (1/250 fixed) recommended by the camera manual for strobe shooting, somehow the brightness scale moves away from the "correct exposure" mark. I’m not sure yet if I should adjust the setting inside the menu or what to cure that frequent mal-alignment."
This sounds like the camera is saying you will be overexposed by the shutter and aperture chosen in manual mode before the strobe fires - in other words, the modelling lights are too bright before the strobe fires ??
Is the ISO set at 100? If you are at ISO 100, you should not be overexposing with the modelling lights at 1/200th an f5.6 or f8 unless the studio is way too bright. Unless the ISO is higher than 100. How much ambient light is falling on your subjects from windows etc?
You high key shots in your gallery look very nice.
Moderator of the Technique Forum and Finishing School on Dgrin
If you are shooting with just small portable battery-powered strobes, you may need to allow more time for recycle. They may flash before full recycle, giving some under-exposure images. Studio strobe heads are much more consistant overall, and usually recycle much faster too.
Full manual, on the camera, is usually the best way to go, and shoot nothing but RAW. I also recommend the flashes set to manual mode. Slight exposure variations are easily accomodated by the RAW conversion software.
A flash meter is highly recommended, but if your lights are not going to change position or output, you can use your camera to help set the lights. You have to work one by one and study the results on a software histogram. It's kindof a pain, but I've done it. (I did confirm the results with a flash meter however.) Don't try to do this during a session, do it as a test and record your settings and results on a chart, so you can easily return to the same setup situations.
If your subjects move much throughout the session, they may move into lighter or darker regions of the set. RAW images will again help provide more consistant end results.
That's about all I can think of, along with what other's already noted.
Good luck,
ziggy53
Moderator of the Cameras and Accessories forums
Ok...I see I left some holes in my story. (You've all been so kind to answer, by the way.)
I do use an incident flash meter that invariably meters 8.5 1/ to 2/3 or 11. Trouble is: I don't know which is up or down from there..I get confused. So, let me tell you the impression I have gotten. The larger the number, ie 11,13,16 22 etc.the smaller the aperature opening. AM I CORRECT? When I shoot higher than 5.6 the shutter speed is sssssllllloooooowwwww.The incident meter is an Interfit Flash Meter and the only input is ISO, which I keep at 100.
As to my Strobes:
http://webphotosupply.com/flash.htm
Advanced Two Light Package
http://webphotosupply.com/light.htm
2 x Omega 320 AC/DC Lights
2 x 28 inch Octagonal Softboxes with Adapter Rings
2 x 13' Air Cushion Heavy Duty Light Stands
42" Touch of Warmth Reflector Kit
(reflector, arm, stand)
640ws total
So, I have 2 stobes with octagonal Soft Boxes. I took the soft box off the one I'm using as a background light on the right and am using just that little metal shade thingy as I was getting too much light bleed on the left side of the subjects.
I got the studio set up from the Virtural Backgrounds people in San Marcus, TX when I went for a demo and found out their background system costs $8-$10k! That's when I did a 180* and decided less is more when it comes to the background. I figured I'd go ahead and get the lights then though since they were so nice and they'd spent so much time with us.
So, Bob, when you said keep the aperture high...do you mean the numeral high as in 11,13,16 etc or the opening wide? And which is which??? (Sorry to be so stupid!
Oh, and I do shoot in RAW ever since I started using the strobes and learned, to my complete surprise, I'd have to learn to shoot manual as they didn't work on automatic settings of the camera.... (Nobody tells ya nothin!) I never would have gotten the salvage if there hadn't been RAW files to work with, that's for sure!
At this point, having bared my ignorance to you all,
And, sorry Bob, but what is ACR in PhotoShop? I think its the abreviation I'm stuck on there because I know a heck of a lot about PhotoShop; especially fixing crappy shots!
I'm wondering if I'm not over-lit. The walls of my dining room are open from 1/2 way up from the floor to the ceiling into the adjacent rooms, (Living room on one side and kitchen on the other). These problems have all occured at night with all the lights in the other 2 rooms off. I hold the incident meter at the subject's face and face the little white bulb shield dooie towards my main light. I could go lower than 100 ISO on that camera, I believe.
Addressing Pathfinder:
"I am confused a bit - If you are shooting with studio strobes, why do you have the camera - 20D - in Av or Tv mode at all?? Or are you using a Canon electronic flash like the 550ex, 380ex, or the 580ex? Is the Speedlight set to manual mode also or ETTL?"
(I need to check the setting on the Speedlite, but haven't put it in the mix yet.)
I was trying to shoot in Av or Tv because the apparent idiot at Wolfe Camera who was supposedly teaching classes on how to operate cameras said to use either Av or Tv, but mostly Av. He also said forget about shooing in "M" or "A-dep" unless we were just Sadomasochistic! As it turned out, he had people in there with every kind of camera imaginable so there wasn't much concentration on my camera. I went twice and learned he was a "stuck in the film era" type that resented digital and photoshop, so I didn't go back. (The lessons were free...we all know the rest of that tune!)
I am thinking of putting my Canon Speedlite 580 in the mix hanging from the ceiling to illuminate the top and center of my backdrop but I wanted to solve my "your missing something somewheres" problems first)
Oh, I did get a small little backdrop strobe that is about 2 ft high and just flashes with the rest of the lights, but no modeling light. It's is positioned on the left illuminating the left lower side of the backdrop since my Main light is on my left too. The right side regular strobe,(Omega 320 AC/DC) is about 5 high and pointed down a bit and towards the backdrop. Both are about 2.5 ft from the backdrop.
I position my subject about 2 ft closer to the camera than the backdrop lights and that puts the subject about 6 feet to the light bulb of the main light on my left, the subject's right. I have a "Touch of Warmth" reflector that I could use at my right to avoid some of the shadowing I see from the main light.
Questions: What is the sequence of setting the aperture and the shutter speed for when I shoot in manual? Is what I described above, correct? And why all of a sudden does the brightness scale jump from center/proper exposure to the far left or right?
Thanks again guys!
You are doing an awful lot that is right, so I think you need to narrow the problem/cause possibilities.
First, I would take the flash meter, with all lights set as you normally do, and pop everything with the meter where the subject would normally be.
What you want to do is check the overall exposure, from the flashes in unison, to make sure you are getting consistant lighting. Each time you flash, the meter should be reading consistantly the same exposure.
If the meter verifies that the lighting is consistant, you can rule that out as a sourve of problems. That would imply that the problems are more camera related.
If the meter shows inconsistancy from your lights, then you have to get them under control before you can gain control over the system. At this point you can check them one by one for consistant output.
If lighting is consistant, as verified by the meter, then you need to gain control of the camera. Start with only manual "everything", and see if you don't get more consistancy this way. Patient testing, changing only one variable at a time will (should) isolate any persistant problems.
I often use a stuffed animal for a very patient subject.
Best,
ziggy53
Moderator of the Cameras and Accessories forums
ACR is adobe camera raw. Its a free program that supports Canon, Nikon, and other RAW formats. If you have Photoshop CS like I do, version 2.4 is the latest you can use, it supports the 20D and 1DmkII. If you have CS2 get the latest version. There are many Raw programs out there. I think ACR does a good job, but others might be better for you.
That is good your meter gives you stops in thirds. I might have bad technique here but I take the lower aperture if the number is 1/3 and the higher for 2/3 and then use exposure compensation to correct for that 3rd. I have heard some people just ignore the partial stops.
I think the easiest way to learn about meters, exposure, and your strobes is Product Photography. You have a static object that you can meter and take shots for hours. Once you can master the strobes with a static object, moving to people is a smaller step than what you are doing right now. Remember, negative exposure compensation is your friend when shooting whites or light colors.
On the topic of photoshop, photoshop is as evil as it is helpful. 5 years ago you would shoot a roll of chrome and give it to a lab. They would adjust what they could and you get it back. Today you are doing what the Lab was doing in the past in photoshop.
If you take 100 images in 1 hour and charge a $100 an hour for the sitting, in your case, and average 2 minutes per image in post. That's 4.333 hours of work and that works out to $23 an hour and you aren't covering other expensive like equipment, insurance, marketing costs, website, etc...
I hope this helps.
Phoenix, AZ
Canon Bodies
Canon and Zeiss Lenses
Thanks!
I too am in the process of learning photography, so I can't give you any real specific info for your situation, but a quick search turned this up. Amazon.com: Light - Science and Magic, Second Edition : An Introduction to Photographic Lighting: Books: Fil Hunter,Paul Fuqua
I don't have any problem with buying books, or several on a subject I don't understand.
Your portraits look very good. If you hadn't written about your problems I wouln't have guessed.
I am a firm believer in empirical testing. Since you have a pretty static environment in your home studio, perhaps you could set up a doll, find a starting point, and start changing the aperature, and shutter and observe the histogram. Only change one thing at a time! observe, then try a new setting.
I hope Shay jumps in here to really help you out. That said I think the strobes should freeze motion even with a slow shutter speed.
Here is a photo I took at 73mm hand held, 580ex, and a shutter speed of 1/40. The girl on the right couldn't be still if you shot her.
Keep up the good work. Your clients will be pleased with your photos!
Sam
But I bet in a year, when you take a 100 shots, you will have 80-90 keepers.
Product Photography is the act of photographing products for advertising like catalogs, magazines, websites, newspapers, etc...
Phoenix, AZ
Canon Bodies
Canon and Zeiss Lenses
Since you are going to start picking on me, I am going back to editing Great Blue Herons that I photographed at sunrise this morning.
Phoenix, AZ
Canon Bodies
Canon and Zeiss Lenses
Moderator of the Cameras and Accessories forums
one last thing...turn off all the background flashes..darken your studio as much as possible and using only the main flash...fire and meter it at 10 feet from the strobe.....using 100....what is the f stop taht the meter says to use???
That will tell me a lot about your over exposures.
Have a great sunday....
I personally would never use a silver umbrella for portraits...way too harsh.....I still use white shoot thru and a gold bounce umbrella to warm very light skinned people.....but mostly my shoot thru..as I prefer the catchlight they give.....your octaginal soft box should do almost the same.
Here's a link: http://www.virtualbackgrounds.net/home.html
The camera was on a tripod congruent with the scene machine. Not very flexible for shooting kids or pets.
You asked "Questions: What is the sequence of setting the aperture and the shutter speed for when I shoot in manual? Is what I described above, correct? And why all of a sudden does the brightness scale jump from center/proper exposure to the far left or right"
When you put a 20D in Manual Mode, the camera will shoot at the aperture and shutter speed you have selected, regardless what the exposure meter in the viewfinder says.
Turn the big nob on the left side of the top of the camera to M. Set the shutter speed with the little nurled nob right behind the shutter release to 200 on the LCD on the top of the camera. Set the aperture with the big nob on the back of the camera until you see 8.0
Now you are ready to shoot in Manual mode at f8.0 1/200th sec.
You will see the exposure meter varying from over to under exposure as you swing the camera around and through light sources or darker areas. But this has no effect whatsoever on what aperture and shutter speed the camera will shoot when configured in Manual Mode.
In Av or Tv, the exposure will be set by the camera choosing the shutter speed in AV mode ( where you get to set the aperture) and the camera will choose the aperture in Tv (where you choose the shutter speed). Hence in Av at f8 indoors, you will get a very long shutter speed chosen by the camera. But not in manual. The exposure meter is there so you can adjust the shutter speed and the aperture to get a correct exposure yourself, but the camera exposure meter is useless for using studio strobes.
You said"I do use an incident flash meter that invariably meters 8.5 1/ to 2/3 or 11. Trouble is: I don't know which is up or down from there..I get confused. So, let me tell you the impression I have gotten. The larger the number, ie 11,13,16 22 etc.the smaller the aperature opening. AM I CORRECT? When I shoot higher than 5.6 the shutter speed is sssssllllloooooowwwww.The incident meter is an Interfit Flash Meter and the only input is ISO, which I keep at 100."
You are using an Incident meter - Great!! Once you get the exposure setting sorted out, you probably won't need to use it any longer, as the lighting does not change - unless you move the lights around a lot.
Yes, you are correct about aperture ratios. But if your proper exposure with your flash set up is f8 to f11 with the studio strobes, you should not have a slow shutter speed. If you want to shoot at f5.6, do not change yor shutter speed for now - move your lights back 50% farther from your subject - the little toy teddy bear for now - and shoot again. The sloooooow shutter speed must be coming from you camera in Av mode, since in Manual Mode YOU set the shutter speed. Right??!!
Put your camera on Manual Mode f8 and 1/200th and shoot. Your 20D will sync with the strobes at 1/200th.
The aperture ratios - f2.8 f4 f5.6 f8 f11 f16 - are set up so that f2.8 is the larger aperture and f4 allows only 1/2 the amount of light that f2.8 admits. F5.6 allows 1/2 the light that f4 admits. F8 allows 1/2 the light that f5.6 admits - und so weiter. ( and so on ) Shutter speeds are set up in the same ratios 1/30 1/60 1/125/ 1/250 etc. But the shutter speeds should not really matter much for exposure when shooting in a studio with electronic flash since ambient should be so much less than the flash lighting strength.
An excellent source for understanding fstops and shutter speeds can be found here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Photography
One other suggestion that I think ziggy or Art made, was to just try to sort this out with just ONE light source. Don't add lots of other sources, until you really understand exposure with a single primary light source first.
Moderator of the Technique Forum and Finishing School on Dgrin
Bless you, Child, for you have NOT sinned!
Thank you, thank you, thank you!!!
Love,
Trish
But, then I decided to just try and spell it out step-by-step.
I'm glad it helped explain things for you.
I hope it helps solve your difficulties and frustrations.
No, I don't teach photography, except here on dgrin.:):
I like your images in your gallery - you have a good eye.
Don't let folks try to tell you there is a difference between digital cameras and film cameras - the basic theory is the same, whether a film SLR or a DSLR.
Moderator of the Technique Forum and Finishing School on Dgrin
Dear Pathfinder:
You have been the only one who has taken me seriously that I needed help with the most basic of basics.
However well intended and knowledgeable they were and generous with their time, most would skip the very basic of basics, either assuming I already knew and couldn't possibly be that ignorant of the "crawling" phase of learning photography.
Apparently I went from "sitting up" to "walking" and am now having to learn to "crawl" for the first time to fill in the missing pieces. (Human Psychology anagoly).
I am setting up right now as I slept in. I stayed up until 6 this morning reading my course and watching that DVD and re-reading your amazing "bolt of lightening" explaination!
Thanks for taking the time with a DSRL novice. I'll get back to you after the shoot!
Forever grateful,
Trish Brown
Dear Pathfinder:
You have been the only one who has taken me seriously that I needed help with the most basic of basics.
However well intended and knowledgeable they were and generous with their time, most would skip the very basic of basics, either assuming I already knew and couldn't possibly be that ignorant of the "crawling" phase of learning photography.
Apparently I went from "sitting up" to "walking" and am now having to learn to "crawl" for the first time to fill in the missing pieces. (Human Psychology anagoly).
I am setting up right now as I slept in. I stayed up until 6 this morning reading my course and watching that DVD and re-reading your amazing "bolt of lightening" explaination!
Thanks for taking the time with a DSRL novice. I'll get back to you after the shoot!
Forever grateful,
Trish Brown
Did JUST what you said. Here's a sample...Cropped a bit, barely tweeked...in PS and here it is. (Of course I had to crop and downsize a lot, the tif file is mucho more vivid!)
Check this out: http://trishbrown.smugmug.com/gallery/1209889/1/63141850
One minor suggestion of the gentlest sort - If you have the room, you might move them forward from the background a few more feet - you will get a better out of focus bokeh I think. If you prefer the background as it is, go with it, don't listen to me.
I enjoyed helping clear things up for you, but I think you would have figured it out yourself before long anyway, Trish.
Moderator of the Technique Forum and Finishing School on Dgrin
Correct again, but I wasn't caring about bokeh today...Just so tickled to be able to shoot! My webpage has a larger version of this:
http://trishbrown.smugmug.com/gallery/1209889
I'll be adding some of the others that are even better shots there in a while. (That sounded conceited, didn't it? Oh well, it's due to you all anyway)