Some dSLR questions

Red Bull

As of now, I am currently using a Powershot A80. I would really like to get a dSLR and the Rebel is what I have my eye on. Now I am only 15 and I don't have money for anything like a 10D or anything like that, and I was wondering how much a Rebel with a wide angle and telephoto lens would cost. I would probably start out with just the normal lens, just so I can practice and get used to shotting with a dSLR. This is all based on the fact that I can earn enough money to buy the camera. I'm thinking of buying it through costco, since they have a deal with the body, lens, and battery included for a total of $950. I wouldn't need any huge memory cards (yet) since I have a 512, a 256, and a 32 MB CF card.

How much would something like this cost in the long run? I am looking into getting a job holding one of those signs that you often see people flipping around at intersections for mobile phone companies, model houses, etc. It sounds lame, but it's tax free money and some places pay up to $10/hr. Pretty good for something like that. I need all the money I can get. I'll be saving up for quite a while, though. I might also work for my dad this summer.

So I'm asking the pros:

1. How much would this cost in the long run?
2. Would there be any accessories (besides lenses) that I would need?
3. How long does it take to get used to the Rebel?

I really want to get more into photography, and I want to get more experience so I can hopefully expand my hobby and possibly make some money from it. (Yes, I still have a loooong way to go:nod)

jwear

reply
I would think with the 20d on the market you wait and watch the rebels ect will come on used and bid low.The experts will have better advice on where and what but I have seen ads for used cameras. good look

Red Bull

I'm sure by the time I have enough money, a newer, better model will come out and the other will get cheaper. Of course, knowing me, I might just keep saving and get the newer model...:D

jwear

xmas
never forget Santa have you been a good boy????????????

lynnesite

Red Bull wrote:

So I'm asking the pros:

1. How much would this cost in the long run?
2. Would there be any accessories (besides lenses) that I would need?
3. How long does it take to get used to the Rebel?)

I would look for a used 10D instead! On eBay (be careful that the seller has a decent amount of feedback)

You'll want a decent UV Haze filter to leave on all the time. It takes no time at all to get used to the dSLR--you'll probably start off in program mode and explore the creative modes from there.

Lynne

wxwax

Hey Red,

If I might suggest buying a used camera from the Buy/Sell Forum on www.fredmiranda.com.... if you're careful, you can get a 300D for a little over $600, with the kit lens. There's quite a bit of activity right now as people sell their Rebels to get a 20D.

I assume you already have a card reader. If not, that's another $20-$30.

I suspect you'll end up wanting to buy more Flash memory. Let's say a 1GB card at around $70.

If you don't have a bag, you may end up wanting one of those. Say another $20.

A tripod really is something you should have. Say about $100... and be ready to upgrade many times, if you get into this hobby. $100 does not buy a sturdy tripod, just an affordable one.

Then we get to the lenses. That's where the real money comes into it, of course. Once again, I think it's a good idea to hunt around on Fred Miranda and buy used. That's how I got almost all of my lenses, all but one like new. If you get a Rebel with the kit lens, you'll have 18-55mm covered. So logically, your next purchase would be a longer lens, maybe a zoom in the 70-200 range.

For example, this guy has an Image Stabilized 70-300 for $334. And this guy has a 100-300 for $200. Folks will argue about lens quality, but I'd think that right now, you're looking to get started, so price is a bigger issue than the niceties of glass performance.

I would strongly suggest that you *do not* buy from E-bay, if you choose to buy used equipment. There are lots of scams there, and it takes a more practiced eye than mine to detect them all. Spend a few weeks perusing Fred Miranda and you'll get sense of how it works and whether you're comfortable. And remember, you can always ask us for advice.

Good luck, and keep us up to date as you decide whether or not to move forward.

Oh, and as for "gettting used" to the Rebel... well, that depends entirely upon how often you use it!

Red Bull

I've been reading tons of reviews and I have some more questions...

1. I keep hearing about the image buffer being only 4 images. What exactly is an image buffer and what does it do?

2. I've read some complaints about it having no mirror lockup. What is it and does it really affect the camera that much?

3. I heard about no AF mode control. So I ask again, does it really effect the camera that much?

4. "No Al Servo mode" What is Al Servo mode and how often would one use it?

5. What does "No aperature or shutter bracketing" mean?

I actually spent the whole day yesterday comparing this camera to the 10D and thiking of which one I should go for. I'm leaning towards the 300D. I will probably go to a photography shop that has both of these cameras so I can look at each one of them in person and compare them. Now by the time I have gotten enough money to buy either one of these cameras, I'm thinking that there will be an "upped" version of the 300D which will have more features. I guess I will have to wait and see.

miketaylor01

I disagree on EBay
Sid, I have to disagree with you on staying away from ebay. I have bought alot of stuff through ebay, including my SD9 and my Sigma 70-200 both within the last month. There are always great deals to be had on there. But I do have to agree on there being alot of scams on ebay. And yes I will also agree that a practiced eye is needed to sort the legitimate sales from the scams. but that is what this forum is for. If you see something you want to buy but arent sure about the value of the deal or the legitimacy just post here and let us all help you try to figure it out. Thats the great thing about this place. Maybe I have just been lucky but I have never been burned on ebay. I will say that I do my research on everything that I buy there.
Good luck with your search for a new cam redbull. Like I said we are all here to help and will do our best to help you make an informed decision. And to keep you all from getting worried im not even going to bring up the Sigma possibilities, oops I think I just did... I know how hard the decision is cause I just went through the same thing

Red Bull

Can anybody please answer some of the questions I've asked in my above post? It would be really helpful.

Also, today I picked up a job permit today at school. Now I just have to go and look around and find a place that has any spots open.

cletus

Red Bull wrote:

1. I keep hearing about the image buffer being only 4 images. What exactly is an image buffer and what does it do?

The image buffer is the memory built into the camera that holds your pictures while they are being written to the Compact Flash card. The camera can take pictures faster than it can write to the Compact Flash cards (a limitation of the card not the camera) so there is some buffer memory built into the camera. That way you can snap off several images in a row. Otherwise you'd have to wait for a couple seconds between pictures while each picture was written to CF. Unless you're planning on doing a lot of sports or wildlife shooting, I wouldn't wory about the image buffer being limited to 4 pictures.

Red Bull wrote:

2. I've read some complaints about it having no mirror lockup. What is it and does it really affect the camera that much?

SLR cameras have mirror that takes image from the lens and bounces it up into the viewfinder. One of the things that happens when you press the shutter release is the mirror swings up out of the way so the image from the lens will strike the CCD (or film).

The motion of the mirror can introduce small vibrations into the camera which can blur pictures taken with long exposure times. Mirror lock-up lets you swing the mirror up out of the way before you press the shutter release, reducing the vibrations. - This is another feature that is nice, but it is not critical.

Red Bull wrote:

3. I heard about no AF mode control. So I ask again, does it really effect the camera that much?

I'm not a Canon guy so I'm unable to comment on this one.

Red Bull wrote:

4. "No Al Servo mode" What is Al Servo mode and how often would one use it?

I'll leave this one up for the Canon folks also.

Red Bull wrote:

5. What does "No aperature or shutter bracketing" mean?

This might mean a couple different (but closely related) things. It probably means that when in Aperature Priority Mode (where you pick the aperature and the camera picks the shutter speed) or Shutter Priority Mode (you pick the shutter speed, the camera picks the aperature) you do not have bracketing ability. Bracketing in this sense would be making a series of different exposures of the same image. For example a three shot bracket might underexpose one shot, normally expose one shot, and overexpose the third shot. Bracketing is a tool for trying to deal with a scenes with complex lighting. Again, it's a feature you can live without.

landrum

If you go with the Rebel, DEFINATELY buy from Costco!!! They return anything, anytime. Just keep your box and receipt to make sure you get what you paid for it. I have purchased 5 cameras thru them, returning each one to upgrade to the next! It's the safest way to try out cameras because there is absolutely NO RISK! I have had a couple that I thought would be great just to find out that they sucked. Plus you can start out with what you can afford, and then just bump up a step as you save more money. That is basically what I have been doing...creating a working camera fund.

If only they carried the 20D... Oh well, maybe by the time I can afford it they will.

tmlphoto

AI servo mode is an automatic focusing mode that basically tracks the subject once it has locked onto it. It is useful for moving subjects. This is also not critical. A Canon camera without an AF mode control would be one with only one Auto Focus mode that isn't selectable. The 10D has three AF modes, but I tend to use the basic AF mode almost exclusively. I haven't really done any action shots though.

FreeUps

Landrum
I really like your technique Landrum. How long do you hold the camera for before returning? Thats really cool.

I've always thought of doing that, but in Manhattan I can't find places with such simple return policies like wal-mart/sams/costco.

Lucky lucky!

cmr164

FreeUps wrote:

I really like your technique Landrum. How long do you hold the camera for before returning? Thats really cool.

I've always thought of doing that, but in Manhattan I can't find places with such simple return policies like wal-mart/sams/costco.

Lucky lucky!

You don't find it abusive or dishonest? I took the post as a joke. If it is real then I am somewhat horrified. Yes I will return things that don't work as expected or are unexpectedly unsuitable but you know that in a few days use. Abusing a vendor in the way stated is theft. Certainly morally and likely criminally also.

FreeUps

Hahaaaa. I dunno charles. Sounds like a fine plan to me, but as I said, I could never pull it off around this area, so I've got not moral issues to worry about.

I guess you could call it theft, it kinda depends on what your excuse is for returning it. If it goes back to the manufacturer cause its "defective" then thats not cool, if its 29 days old and goes right back out to another customer, then thats not very cool either. So yea, I guess you're right, not a very nice strategy either way. hehe.

landrum

cmr164 wrote:

You don't find it abusive or dishonest? I took the post as a joke. If it is real then I am somewhat horrified. Yes I will return things that don't work as expected or are unexpectedly unsuitable but you know that in a few days use. Abusing a vendor in the way stated is theft. Certainly morally and likely criminally also.

No, I am not dishonest or a thief!!! How DARE you call me such!!!!!

If you are a member of Costco, then you know that they have a great return policy. It is the safest way to buy anything, because you can always return it (they even tell you so!!!) Of all the cameras I had, only one was to really upgrade, the others I was not happy with due to performance anyway. They don't care what the reason is. The merchandise is NOT resold. Don't you start judging me before you know what you are talking about!!! :nono

And Freeups...Walmart and Sams do not return anything..even with a reciept!

mercphoto

Wow

landrum wrote:

No, I am not dishonest or a thief!!! How DARE you call me such!!!!! Don't you start judging me before you know what you are talking about!!! :nono

I dunno. Still sounds like you are getting and using a product and not paying for it in the end. Just because they let you do that, does it mean its morally right to do so? SOMEBODY has to pay for that camera, correct? If its not you, then its Costco. And if its them, where do you think that money comes from? It comes from extra built-in profit in the cost of goods sold, of course.

There is no such thing as a free lunch, or in this case a free camera.

Sorry, I feel very strongly about this.

cmr164

landrum wrote:

No, I am not dishonest or a thief!!! How DARE you call me such!!!!!

If you are a member of Costco, then you know that they have a great return policy. It is the safest way to buy anything, because you can always return it (they even tell you so!!!) Of all the cameras I had, only one was to really upgrade, the others I was not happy with due to performance anyway. They don't care what the reason is. The merchandise is NOT resold. Don't you start judging me before you know what you are talking about!!! :nono

And Freeups...Walmart and Sams do not return anything..even with a reciept!

Tell you what, let me tell Costco your real name and address and a list of the cameras that you have done this with and we will let them decide if you are a thief. I already decided.

mercphoto

Hard to phathom
Tell you what, lets say I buy a photograph from you. A 4x6 of a waterfall you took. I hang it proudly on my living room wall. After 2 months I decide I want the 8x10 instead. Nothing wrong with the 4x6 at all, but I ask you to take it back, for a full refund, and sell me an 8x10. A few months later you have a picture of a different waterfall and I want a change of decor. Nothing wrong with the 8x10, but I ask you to take it back and sell me the other one. A few months later I decide I'm tired of photographs and want an oil painting instead, so I ask you to take it back and I go buy a painting from someone else.

In that time I have had three of your photographs in my possession and you have lost money in the process. I simply wanted a free lunch.

I'll ask, who was it that paid for all those cameras you used, because it wasn't you. But it was someone. Someone had to pay for them.

Sam

cmr164 wrote:

Tell you what, let me tell Costco your real name and address and a list of the cameras that you have done this with and we will let them decide if you are a thief. I already decided.

Costco has a very liberal return policy, which it is well thought out. This is part of their marketing stratagy. They sell in huge quantities, in part due to this policy. From a statistical view point Costco is way ahead.

As an example, Landrum may have returned several cameras, but she has probably purchased a lot of other items not returned. This policy gives the Costco customer the confidence to buy anything, and most items are not returned.

Landrum has done nothing illegal, and Costco already has her name, adress and a list of all puchases made. They know exactly what she has purchased, when it was purchased, and if is was returned.

You need to know what your talking about before you call someone a thief.

Sam

mercphoto

Geez

Sam wrote:

Costco has a very liberal return policy, which it is well thought out. This is part of their marketing stratagy.

As an example, Landrum may have returned several cameras, but she has probably purchased a lot of other items not returned. This policy gives the Costco customer the confidence to buy anything, and most items are not returned.

Landrum has done nothing illegal... You need to know what your talking about before you call someone a thief.

Well, I didn't call her a thief, but I'll address the other issues. I still contend that SOMEONE needs to have paid for those cameras. Correct?

I also never said she did anything illegal, just unethical. Taking advantage of a return policy that makes it easy to return defective items is no excuse to basically "rent" items for free. To simply say "most items are not returned" is no excuse to be "one of the few".

Red Bull

Well also think of this. The camera gets bought, Costco gets the money. Then when it is returned, Costco loses that money, but it is sent back, re-packaged, and re-sold. (if it isn't defective). When they re-sell it, more than likely SOMEONE will buy it and not return it, and Costco gets their money. If it isn't sold in the store then it is put online where tons of people buy their stuff from. So technically, it isn't stealing since Costco does get their money.

So back on topic, can anybody tell me how their Rebel has performed? So far I have $920 more to go! Maybe I can think of other creative ways to make money.:rollI've been wanting to go up to the shopping center to find out about sign holding jobs, but it's been raining here (rain...in San Diego! *gasp!*) I'll find out about it as soon as possible because I want to start saving up!

mercphoto

Rebels

Red Bull wrote:

Well also think of this. The camera gets bought, Costco gets the money. Then when it is returned, Costco loses that money, but it is sent back, re-packaged, and re-sold. (if it isn't defective). When they re-sell it, more than likely SOMEONE will buy it and not return it, and Costco gets their money. If it isn't sold in the store then it is put online where tons of people buy their stuff from. So technically, it isn't stealing since Costco does get their money.

This is called rationalization. The description above is also not accurate from an economic standpoint. I'm giving up on trying to instill some ethics and morals in those lacking. Next thing someone will try to tell me that Napster was not stealing either.

So back on topic, can anybody tell me how their Rebel has performed?

Very good image quality when used within its limitations. Doesn't like to track moving objects very well with auto focus. Auto-white-balance doesn't work reliably. Small burst buffer and writes to cards slowly. If this doesn't matter to you, or if you can work around them, the camera is quite nice.

Sam

mercphoto wrote:

Well, I didn't call her a thief, but I'll address the other issues. I still contend that SOMEONE needs to have paid for those cameras. Correct?

YES! We pay for all the returns, we pay for all the warranties, we pay for all shoplifting, and loss. We pay for all the adds, we pay for all the taxes, we pay for everything! Returns are only a small part of the overall cost.

I also never said she did anything illegal, just unethical. Taking advantage of a return policy that makes it easy to return defective items is no excuse to basically "rent" items for free. To simply say "most items are not returned" is no excuse to be "one of the few".

Costco offers this return policy. They will tell you flat out...you can return it for any (ANY!) reason. (period)

They know there will some who (abuse / push / maximize) this policy. They don't care, it's factored in. Having this policy is good for their business.

While I, and you, may not take full advantage of this return policy, they know, and expect others will. How then if the seller states the return policy, and the buyer acts in accordance with this policy is it unethical?

Sam

mercphoto

Returns

Sam wrote:

While I, and you, may not take full advantage of this return policy, they know, and expect others will. How then if the seller states the return policy, and the buyer acts in accordance with this policy is it unethical?

So what you are tyring to say is that the return policy is not meant as an easy, painless way for people to return defective merchandise, but also as a means for people to rent items for free. I simply do not believe that to be the case. (and I am a CostCo member) Just because the policy ALLOWS someone to do so does not mean they WANT people to do so, and is not an excuse to take advantage of that policy in this manner. "I'm doing this because I can". Sounds like Bill Clinton...

ian408

REI has a similar policy. They want you to be happy with your purchase.
Whatever the reason. This is an admirable policy but I don't think they
intend it as a rent-to-own type of a deal.

Eventually, this has to cost someone money. Fry's Electronics used to simply
re-wrap it (with shrink wrap too) and put it back on the shelves as "new". That
is until customers figured it out and now they mark everything that's been
returned.

Same warranty as the new stuff--but I usually take the large number of returns
as some measure of the products worthiness I also will not knowingly buy
something that's been returned unless there is some markdown (preferring
not to make a second trip to return something).

It is for this reason that I do buy from REI and Fry's. Because if something's
wrong, they will take the item back--no questions asked. By the same token,
I try not to take advantage (over and above defective item/not meeting the
need) of that policy.


ian

MazerRakhm

Red Bull wrote:

So back on topic, can anybody tell me how their Rebel has performed? So far I have $920 more to go! Maybe I can think of other creative ways to make money.:rollI've been wanting to go up to the shopping center to find out about sign holding jobs, but it's been raining here (rain...in San Diego! *gasp!*) I'll find out about it as soon as possible because I want to start saving up!

I've had my DRebel since may, taken just over 3,000 pictures with it so far. I recently stared using it to shoot HS football games in addition to wildlife/zoo/still pictures and have had no problems with it at all and find it adequate for my needs thus far. It may not have the same features of say the new 20D, but it also doesn't have the price tag of the bigger camera also.

I think the best part since I am still a beginning amateur is that I can use all of the EOS lenses on the camera, still take quality pictures and be able keep and use the same lenses if and when I do decide to upgrade camera bodies.

Remember, a better camera does not guarantee better pictures just makes it easier for an experienced photographer to take them. Relatively speaking, a good photographer will walk away with a good picture no matter what camera you give them.

Red Bull

Well I just got a job for holding the sign for T-Mobile. THe guy at CIngular said he would call me once he knows what his other 2 people are doing. Time to save up! Only $910 to go...

wxwax

Red Bull wrote:

Well I just got a job for holding the sign for T-Mobile. THe guy at CIngular said he would call me once he knows what his other 2 people are doing. Time to save up! Only $910 to go...

Way to go, Red Bull. Good luck saving up the cash.

wxwax

cmr164 wrote:

Tell you what, let me tell Costco your real name and address and a list of the cameras that you have done this with and we will let them decide if you are a thief. I already decided.

:nono Waaay out of bounds. Cut it out.

cmr164

wxwax wrote:

:nono Waaay out of bounds. Cut it out.

Sid. We differ here. I think the behavior described is extremely reprehensible and probably illegal. If I am wrong what I suggest would do no harm. If I am right then you are out of line to discourage reporting it.