Photography business ethics

Sask2005

Do you think it's ethical for anyone to photograph a sports event which is being covered by an offical photographer paid by the organiser?

This post was edited since it was first displayed because the post was badly worded and did not intend to be taken in the manner it was. I apologise publically for this.

Firstly I was referring to a photography company other than the one quoted in these replies. Secondly, I do not and have not copied anyone's web site but was impressed by the style of a site referred to and was interested in where and how it was made. Finally, as I explained to the photographer named within the replies, the point of my initial post was to discuss ethical arguements related to real life situation which I was using for a university paper.

Richard

Golden rule?
I don't know that there's a "one size fits all" answer to your question, but one way to approach it is to ask yourself how you would feel if you were the one with the contract and someone else tried to do what you are doing.

Regards,

flyingdutchie

rsinmadrid wrote:

I don't know that there's a "one size fits all" answer to your question, but one way to approach it is to ask yourself how you would feel if you were the one with the contract and someone else tried to do what you are doing.

Regards,

You have a point there, but then again:
"Often I get more sales than he does"
The other photographer then needs to do a better job so he'll get more sales (plain and simple competition). It depends on the contract the other photographer has. Maybe he has some access to sites and people that Sask2005 does not have. Maybe that's all the contract promises...

mercphoto

Sask2005 wrote:

Consider - these are public events, many other freelance photographers are there too, the contracted photographer attends other events I am contracted to and takes pics in the same way I do at his events (purely coincedentally.

I think the fact that it is a public place is all that matters.

dragon300zx

[disclaimer]This may seem alittle harsh but thats the mood im in right now [/disclaimer]

Ethics don't exist in business anymore. Companies like smugmug are a rarity, Companies like Enron have proved it's all about the bottom line.

You are doing better at sales than the other guy, you are prolly a better photographer.

So screw him. Make your money and do your thing. If he has a problem with that then he should look at whether or not he is in the right line of work.

mercphoto

dragon300zx wrote:

Ethics don't exist in business anymore.

What is unethical about photographing a public event in a public place? Or to turn it around, what is ethical about keeping someone else from photographing a public event in a public place?

Companies like smugmug are a rarity, Companies like Enron have proved it's all about the bottom line.

Which is worse, what they do, or the fact that people continue to buy their products even given what they do?

So screw him. Make your money and do your thing. If he has a problem with that then he should look at whether or not he is in the right line of work.

EXACTLY! If he isn't good at what he does then why in the world is his job being "protected" for him?

Bodley

Ya'll are way off base!!!

The organizer of the event - be it little league baseball or horseshoes - has the rights to the event. Many times they must pay for the use of the facility to hold the event. One of the ways to recoup the cost is through selling photo's. Part of the proceeds, generally a percentage, go to the organizer.

You are not competing on a level playing field with the contract photog - His pricing must reflect the additional overhead. Everyone there benefits from his shots - only you benefit from yours.

The ethical solution is to work with the other photog. If he/she isn't shooting that day a win/win deal should be out there somewhere.

This has been discussed at length on FM. I surprised that bunch is more ethical than the dgrin group.

dragon300zx wrote:

Ethics don't exist in business anymore. Companies like smugmug are a rarity, Companies like Enron have proved it's all about the bottom line.

So screw him. Make your money and do your thing. If he has a problem with that then he should look at whether or not he is in the right line of work.

Just because another company is a bottom feeder does not excuse or justify your actions if you become a bottom feeder. The screw'em mentality is what's wrong with the world today - your really just screwing yourself in the long run.

If we continue to screw each other then we deserve to be treated like inbreads.

mercphoto

Bodley wrote:

Ya'll are way off base!!!

The organizer of the event - be it little league baseball or horseshoes - has the rights to the event.

Which to me no longer sounds like a public event on public property.

dragon300zx

Bodley wrote:

If we continue to screw each other then we deserve to be treated like inbreads.

I agree but thats what the world wants. I'm not one of the screw each other people myself. But if his question is whether or not the world accepts it and thinks it's ok. Then I have to say yup. In todays world it is ok. It may not be right and it would leave a bad taste in my mouth. But todays world has no concept of ethics and morals. Just look at who are most revered celebrities are.

Paris hilton for example.

JimM

dragon300zx wrote:

Paris hilton for example.

This thread could go down the wrong road if we go there.

As for the topic itself. We need to know more about the "public place". If there is a contract with another photographer, I am surprised they (the people running the event) have not asked you to leave. How pubic is the place. Putting flyers on cars, even in a public place, might be against an ordinance? Same with soliciting?

This is a tough issue to fully grasp.

Angelo

Raises an interesting question about "public"

Let's say I own a business and choose to hold an event for my employees in a public park. I visit the Parks Department and pay a fee for a day permit to use a portion of the park for the event. Is my event "public"? No!
I've paid for the right to use that portion of the park, for stated purpose, for a specific timeframe. As such I would expect, and I am, guaranteed some level of control and protection against trespassing.

Is this not the same with sports? Every softball team/league I know has to pay for a park permit to use the diamond. Same with tennis on public courts and golf on public links.

JimM

Another question, kind of a side note: If you think your photos are better, why do you undercut the contracted photographer?

Bodley

mercphoto wrote:

Which to me no longer sounds like a public event on public property.

Quote from the initial post - "More often than not the organiser of the event has contracted another photographer to shoot the event." Seems to be asking about shooting at controlled events with organizers.

dragon300zx

Also a good thing for us to remember is most of us are coming from the american view point, and familiar with the general american laws. This question is coming from a photographer not in america. Laws there are different.

Richard

dragon300zx wrote:

Also a good thing for us to remember is most of us are coming from the american view point, and familiar with the general american laws. This question is coming from a photographer not in america. Laws there are different.

I think the original question concerned ethics, not law. Sadly, the two are not necessarily the same.

mercphoto

JimM wrote:

Another question, kind of a side note: If you think your photos are better, why do you undercut the contracted photographer?

Might be a variety of reasons to do so, some good and some bad. But the fundamental issue is what says the contracted photographer's rates are current market rates?

dragon300zx

rsinmadrid wrote:

I think the original question concerned ethics, not law. Sadly, the two are not necessarily the same.

Yes but ethics are not exactly the same everywhere either.

JimM

mercphoto wrote:

Might be a variety of reasons to do so, some good and some bad. But the fundamental issue is what says the contracted photographer's rates are current market rates?

I am just thinking as supply and demand dictate, if he has better work, he should charge the same as the contracted guy... just a thought.

mercphoto

JimM wrote:

I am just thinking as supply and demand dictate, if he has better work, he should charge the same as the contracted guy... just a thought.

Which is my point: supply and demand. That dictates prices. What someone else charges does not. He could be off the map with respect to his asking price.

Sask2005

This post has been removed by the author.

Sask2005

This post was edited since first posted to avoid further confusion over the intention of the original post which unclearly suggested something was wasn't intended.

Sask2005

Thanks
Thanks

Bodley

Sask2005 wrote:

Because he charges excessively and I don't think that its right to overcharge people.

How much are you paying the organizer, how about (if applicable in your country) sales taxes, insurance, business licenses, equipment cost?

If the answer to the above is zero then when you factor in the cost his prices might not seem so high.

Not trying to argue - just food for thought.

mercphoto

Sask2005 wrote:

Because he charges excessively and I don't think that its right to overcharge people.

Bodley makes good points. More food for thought, consider this -- what defines "over-charging"? People are voluntarily paying him his asking price for his photos. Nobody is forcing them to buy from him. He asks a price, some people pay it. What is not "right" about that?

Rhetorical question, and I'm hoping I don't start something I'm going to regret by posting this.

JimM

mercphoto wrote:

Bodley makes good points. More food for thought, consider this -- what defines "over-charging"? People are voluntarily paying him his asking price for his photos. Nobody is forcing them to buy from him. He asks a price, some people pay it. What is not "right" about that?

I think you are dead-on here.

As for the "ethical" question, if the use of the venue is free and there is not written contract between the organizer and the "contract" photographer, I don't think I have an ethical problem with what you are doing.

Jamoke

JimM wrote:

As for the "ethical" question, if the use of the venue is free and there is not written contract between the organizer and the "contract" photographer, I don't think I have an ethical problem with what you are doing.

Free venue - Word of mouth Agreement - Doesn't sound like the organizers are getting a cut. So It's just a photographer who's been asked to take some pictures - and (Again assuming) wants to make some profit off his friends event.

I think a win - win situation would be to discuss it with the other photographer. You've depicted him slightly lazy, and perhaps he only wants pictures of the main event, or the heart of the action. So you could both discuss and agree on a set price for product, link to each others sites, and lead your customers to both sets of pictures, and then agree to shoot seperate topics/or areas of interest. Then both of you get profit, both of you have the same price (no undercuting) and everybody benefits from a wider variety of pictures. Plus in the long run the better photographer wins, and as you've stated you sell more, perhaps you would continue to sell more (even agreeing not to photograph the primary subject/location)

- if he doesn't show up - there's no debate, cover for him, and become a friend with the organizer.... If he doesn't want to link to your set, or agree to shoot seperate areas, or agree on a price - then who's being un-ethical. Un-Civil at least and in New Zealand that might go for Un-Ethical... Sounds like a pretty civil place though
"Can't ask anyone to leave"
Wow....

- just my thoughts -

LeDude

Clarification
[self-delete]

Catto

Elvis has the answer:

Sask2005 wrote:

Because he charges excessively and I don't think that its right to overcharge people.

In the words of the immortal Elvis Presley;
'Before you abuse, criticise and accuse,
Walk a mile in my shoes.'

Apart from the whole ethical question, which I'll come to in a moment, I really don't understand how you've decided that I overcharge people for my professional photography, or that I have a 'word of mouth' contract, whatever that is, with these event organisers.

As a member of the AIPA (http://www.aipa.org.nz), I use the contractual documents they have created to license my work to my clients, retaining copyright in all my images and licensing their use for commercial purposes -such as promoting the event in question. I do this, and have done this, on a number of events for these organisers; and they have been pleased with the results, and the service levels I deliver (as I guarantee to do in the AIPA contract) - and I must say, at the price for which I deliver them.

I have also used the AIPA's CODB (Cost Of Doing Business) calculator, and factored in all my routine expenses - standard business costs such as premises, communication, transport, marketing, as well as my cameras, lenses & computer equipment, which practically speaking needs to be replaced every second year. (If you're not budgeting now for new equipment, you're going to be in trouble when you need to upgrade or replace things - where will that money come from if you haven't been pricing for it all along?)

All of these documents are freely available - even to non-members of the Association - and may be of help to you, Bruce, in working out why other photographers do charge more than you. I would suggest that none of us are ripping people off; in fact, I'd be surprised if many are drawing a very serious salary out of our businesses after the full costs are considered, especially in a small market such as Wellington where so many people are competing for work - often by undercutting each other.

I would also strongly suggest that you consider joining such a professional organisation; the benefits of membership do certainly include a lot of discussion with other professional photographers - PRIVATELY - about topics such as why we price the way we do, and how to manage client relationships.

I'd suggest that making public postings like this is not the best way to get known...and my general rule of thumb in life is that if I'm not sure about the ethics of something, that's probably a hint that I shouldn't be doing it that way. Try contacting the event coordinator in advance and offering your help; if you're turned down, take it gracefully, and move on.
R

Bodwick

Catto wrote:

In the words of the immortal Elvis Presley;
'Before you abuse, criticise and accuse,
Walk a mile in my shoes.'

A very mild response from Mr Catto. Welcome.

I'm not keen on people stealing others idea's and business plans and then claiming to be the best with nothing to back up their claims. I thought you might have posted a 'sorry' Sask2005.

I was surprised to read Sask, that your 41 years old? I'd got you down as a teen and agreed with Waxy in finding the first response from Mr Catto funny. It's not so funny when you put these two posts together and read back your early posts.

I could go on about this for age's but will not.

Your new to this, learn what your doing and don't be so rude to people that you should be speaking to and trying to learn from rather than copying and trying to take business from.

A few (of many) of your learning curve posts over a year.

09-05-2005
I have a nice digital camera and I take lots of photos. But all my photos are dull, boring and quite normal. What am I doing wrong?

09-25-2005
Yesterday I took 640 photos of a mountain marathon even in wellington. new zealand. It was the first serious use of my E300. Some photos I used the "sports" program and for others I used the Scenes - sports" program.
I got mixed results.

05-12-2005
I'm new to this and can't get my mind into photographing anything. Is there a set of steps you follow to create a photo.

02-04-2006
I have a digital SLR and for a year now I have been trying to find someone to give me some good help on how to take photos using it's manual functions.
For example taking a pic of a beach at first light - I'm guessing the aperture needs to be as open as possible but how do I work out the speed? Is there charts somewhere that I could download or buy? How does one learn this stuff.




This sort of thing can lead to people not wanting to share information, tricks and tips for fear of simply being copied and undercut.

Bod.

Angelo

I'm a bit confused

Is it indeed Mr. Catto you're "competing" with? If so, I would seriously consider rethinking your argument.

I don't mean to be harsh but really.... first off, in my mind there is no competition. A cursory look at both websites and the bodies of work tell me you'd have a very difficult time standing against him in an interview with an event organizer.

Additionally, what in the world are you talking about relative to pricing? You actually charge more than he on certain print sizes.

R Johns

Jim's right.

This thread could go down the wrong road if we go there.

But I can't resist. I stand with Bodley, who says...

Just because another company is a bottom feeder does not excuse or justify your actions if you become a bottom feeder. The screw'em mentality is what's wrong with the world today - your really just screwing yourself in the long run.

So I say, you can't bless yourself. You can only fool yourself. If you are looking to be blessed, try being a blessing, first. :sweet

I'd find out more details (on whatever event), and if then you're conscience is still unsure, leave it alone.