Related keywords not updating?

pat.kane

I seem to have a problem with keywords not working as expected.

Here's an example:

be sure you're in smugmug view

go to http://kanefamily.smugmug.com/keyword/

find 2006 usyvl and click on it, which gives you
http://kanefamily.smugmug.com/keyword/2006+usyvl

Look at the related keywords at the top of the page for the first picture. Appears to be OK, matching the keywords below for this image, e.g., Sydney.

Pick the 11th picture (girl in yellow sweatshirt). Look at the related keywords at the top of the page. The related keywords at the top of the page haven't changed. They should now reflect the keywords that relate to this image. In fact, Sydney is shown as a related keyword and Sydney isn't even listed as a keyword in the keyword list below the image.

Any ideas?

dmc

pat.kane wrote:

Pick the 11th picture (girl in yellow sweatshirt). Look at the related keywords at the top of the page. The related keywords at the top of the page haven't changed. They should now reflect the keywords that relate to this image. In fact, Sydney is shown as a related keyword and Sydney isn't even listed as a keyword in the keyword list below the image.

Any ideas?

You used keywords to select a set of pictures, it also displays other keywords "related" to the keywords you used, and also list keywords which can be "combined" (added) to your original keyword search.

The smugmug style (Smugmug in your example) merely allows you to view all the pictures retrieved from your keyword search.. only when you change the keyword search will the "related" and "combine with" list change.

Also, even though you get a list of "related" keywords, it doesn't mean ALL the pictures originally retrieved are "related" to every keyword in the "related" list

pat.kane

Understand about smugmug style. I just didn't want anyone trying all thumbs as that doesn't show related keywords.

The related list isn't complete for the keyword selected. It only listed one person's name when in fact there are quite a few other names associated with this keyword.

I'm fairly certain from past experience that the related list isn't behaving properly.

I'm off to my son's baseball game, so I'll dig into this a little more when I return. Thanks for the input.

ivar

pat.kane wrote:

Understand about smugmug style. I just didn't want anyone trying all thumbs as that doesn't show related keywords.

The related list isn't complete for the keyword selected. It only listed one person's name when in fact there are quite a few other names associated with this keyword.

I'm fairly certain from past experience that the related list isn't behaving properly.

I'm off to my son's baseball game, so I'll dig into this a little more when I return. Thanks for the input.

Are you sure 'related keywords' have to match the keywords from the picture? i always thought they were the keywords that were associated with pictures other than the one being viewed which had the same keywords as the one showing. (Are you with me on this? i barely am with myself here ) But i could be wrong, i don't use them in that way alot.

Sheaf

ivar wrote:

Are you sure 'related keywords' have to match the keywords from the picture? i always thought they were the keywords that were associated with pictures other than the one being viewed which had the same keywords as the one showing. (Are you with me on this? i barely am with myself here ) But i could be wrong, i don't use them in that way alot.

Ivar is correct. When you have related keywords at the top of your page, you're browsing all the photos that have those keywords. So for example, if I wanted to see all the photos with "boy" and "soccer," then selected both of those would return every photo with those two keywords.

Sheaf

pat.kane wrote:

Understand about smugmug style. I just didn't want anyone trying all thumbs as that doesn't show related keywords.

The related list isn't complete for the keyword selected. It only listed one person's name when in fact there are quite a few other names associated with this keyword.

I'm fairly certain from past experience that the related list isn't behaving properly.

I'm off to my son's baseball game, so I'll dig into this a little more when I return. Thanks for the input.

Right now, the functionality is that it shows the main related keywords. If there are only a few related keywords, it will show them. But if there are a lot, it will only show the ones that will return the most photos.

You can, however, easily get around that limitation. Simply manipulate the URL to be whatever you want. Separate spaces in keywords by '%20' and separate keywords by '-'.

So for example, http://sheaf.smugmug.com/keyword/2006%20cruise-mark will bring up all of my photos that have the keywords "2006 cruise" and "mark." If I wanted to add additional keywords, I would just tack them on at the end with more '-'s. For example, keyword/2006%cruise-mark-meghan-colton

dmc

yeah, I was just gonna say that too... it appears you get the "top five" related keywords.... i.e. of all the pictures retrieved, these are the top five keywords that you didn't search on, but are assigned to one or more of the pictures.

Clicking on a "related" keyword replaces the current keyword search whereas clicking on "combine with" tacks it on the current keyword search. If the keyword you are expecting is not displayed, it is not in the top five, but as sheaf said, you can tack in on manually.


There is also a bug that I don't think is fixed yet either... if you have a combined keyword search (i.e. more than 1 keyword) and it returns more pictures than fit on page 1 of smugmug style (>15) then you are stuck, going to the next page doesn't work. You have to use "all thumbs" to see all the pictures returned.

ivar

dmc wrote:

There is also a bug that I don't think is fixed yet either... if you have a combined keyword search (i.e. more than 1 keyword) and it returns more pictures than fit on page 1 of smugmug style (>15) then you are stuck, going to the next page doesn't work. You have to use "all thumbs" to see all the pictures returned.

Hey, interesting, i'm getting the same thing on my pages aswell......

for those of you who want to try it http://ivar.smugmug.com/keyword/vinea-bramel produces 142 matches, but only the first 15 can be accessed

rainforest1155

ivar wrote:

Hey, interesting, i'm getting the same thing on my pages aswell......

for those of you who want to try it http://ivar.smugmug.com/keyword/vinea-bramel produces 142 matches, but only the first 15 can be accessed

In traditional view I can access all pages, but they show no different content from the first page - all the same.

Sebastian

ivar

rainforest1155 wrote:

In traditional view I can access all pages, but they show no different content from the first page - all the same.

Sebastian

Yes, but not in smugmug style. I removed the style selector, but i can't force the popular gallery to smugmug i think. Go to any other smugmug site first, and then select smugmug view, and then go back to my page again. It's the only workaround for now i think....

Sheaf

dmc wrote:

There is also a bug that I don't think is fixed yet either... if you have a combined keyword search (i.e. more than 1 keyword) and it returns more pictures than fit on page 1 of smugmug style (>15) then you are stuck, going to the next page doesn't work. You have to use "all thumbs" to see all the pictures returned.

Yeah, we've known about this one for a little while, but our engineer (as well as most of the rest of the company) is out of town.

pat.kane

Looks like DMC hit it on the head

dmc wrote:

yeah, I was just gonna say that too... it appears you get the "top five" related keywords.... i.e. of all the pictures retrieved, these are the top five keywords that you didn't search on, but are assigned to one or more of the pictures.

Clicking on a "related" keyword replaces the current keyword search whereas clicking on "combine with" tacks it on the current keyword search. If the keyword you are expecting is not displayed, it is not in the top five, but as sheaf said, you can tack in on manually.

Thanks to the above explanation, now I understand what is going on. I guess I hadn't run into this "top five" limitation before.

I've got to say that I don't like it. :cry Here's why

I send a friend a link to see some VOLLEYBALL pics.

She finds one with her daughter and under the pic she sees her daughter's name as a keyword. She clicks on her DAUGHTER's name and as expected sees pictures with her daughter (pages and pages of them).

She would now like to narrow the search by combining VOLLEYBALL with her DAUGHTER's name. It's not an option because VOLLEYBALL apparently isn't in the top five keywords.

I know that you can edit the url to create a better search (url...DAUGHTER-VOLLEYBALL), but that's not a reasonable expectation for joe average user.

I could be wrong, but I seem to recall that we weren't limited to the top five keywords at some point in the past. It was the handling of keywords (reading directly from the IPTC data and the +/- ability) and Dgrin that really sold me on smugmug.

Oh well, another limitation I'll have to figure out a workaround for.

Regards,
Pat

pat.kane

Sheaf wrote:

Right now, the functionality is that it shows the main related keywords. If there are only a few related keywords, it will show them. But if there are a lot, it will only show the ones that will return the most photos.

Thanks Sheaf. Was this a recent change (w/in last six months)?

Sheaf wrote:

Yeah, we've known about this [the bug] one for a little while, but our engineer (as well as most of the rest of the company) is out of town.

I assume this is also recent misbehaviour because I don't remember this being a problem either.

Sheaf

pat.kane wrote:

Thanks Sheaf. Was this a recent change (w/in last six months)?

To be honest, I don't know.

pat.kane wrote:

I assume this is also recent misbehaviour because I don't remember this being a problem either.

We just found out about earlier this week. We're not sure how long it's been around.

Sheaf

pat.kane wrote:

I could be wrong, but I seem to recall that we weren't limited to the top five keywords at some point in the past.

That may be true. I wasn't personally responsible for the current implementation, but I'm inclined to believe it was partly due to the sheer number of keywords some people have. The page would look terrible if someone had, say, 80 related keywords.

Perhaps it would be possible for us to add a "see more" type thing.

pat.kane

Sheaf wrote:

... The page would look terrible if someone had, say, 80 related keywords.

Understand. Obviously there has to be a compromise. My opinion is that five is too few and that 10-15 would be just right (IMHO, others will of course have their own opinion). I put a lot of work into keywording and I hate to see that lost for the average user.

Sheaf wrote:

Perhaps it would be possible for us to add a "see more" type thing.

That would help as well, at the end of the list of 10-15 keywords

Thanks for taking the time to respond.

DesptachesGallery

dmc wrote: »

...Clicking on a "related" keyword replaces the current keyword search whereas clicking on "combine with" tacks it on the current keyword search...

Sorry for dragging this one up - but for usability requirements, could anyone recommend if/how I could create a hover over the "related" and "combine" text where we can enter our own text in the baloon to explain what's going on.

It's not ideal - we all hate balloons/hovers but we feel it might be better to at least have this functionality.

Thanks in advance for any suggestions! Pete

rainforest1155

DesptachesGallery wrote: »

Sorry for dragging this one up - but for usability requirements, could anyone recommend if/how I could create a hover over the "related" and "combine" text where we can enter our own text in the baloon to explain what's going on.

It's not ideal - we all hate balloons/hovers but we feel it might be better to at least have this functionality.

Thanks in advance for any suggestions! Pete

Pete,
I'm not aware of a way to do this. You could post in the customizations forum to see if one of the customization experts might be able to help:
http://www.dgrin.com/forumdisplay.php?f=31

DesptachesGallery

Dragging this one up again...

Could the SmugMug engineers please advise exactly, EXACTLY how the related keywords get built?

Our site will be making extensive use of smartgalleries, some with pre-canned searches, but we need to understand how the related keywords get built and maintained.

Heresay is no longer enough for us, sorry.

Also, has the bug for multiple entries not being accessable (as sheaf highlighted in this thread) has been fixed?

rainforest1155

You can find a description of the related keywords feature in the "unleash the power of related keywords" here.

Related keywords include other keywords that are also tagged for the current keyword gallery you're viewing.

Please note that related keywords have nothing to do with smart galleries - they only appear when you browse a keyword gallery, like this one for example.

I don't see that bug happening anymore. It was likely fixed many years ago.

DesptachesGallery

rainforest1155 wrote: »

You can find a description of the related keywords feature in the "unleash the power of related keywords" here.

Related keywords include other keywords that are also tagged for the current keyword gallery you're viewing.

Please note that related keywords have nothing to do with smart galleries - they only appear when you browse a keyword gallery, like this one for example.

I don't see that bug happening anymore. It was likely fixed many years ago.

Thanks Sebastian!

DesptachesGallery

DesptachesGallery wrote: »

Thanks Sebastian!

rainforest1155 wrote: »

...

Related keywords include other keywords that are also tagged for the current keyword gallery you're viewing...

Current Keyword Gallery - ok I am having difficulty understanding this concept.

As an example, SM uploads the first 30 keywords from EXIF/ITPC (or a subscriber enters them through the SM interface).

Say a series of 100 photos each have 30 keywords. Let's say 50 photos have 30 of the same keywords (I know doesn't make sense but bear with me), and the other 50 photos have a mix of 25 of the first keywords and the other 50 have have NONE of the keywords in the first 50 photos.

Given that the related keywords list provides only 5 related keywords, then how would the related and combine with keywords work/i.e. get built? From what I am seeing is the maximum number of keywords a user could ever drill down for is 1 x 5 x 5 x 5 x 5 =25 - far short of the 30 available per photo, and far short of the permutation sin my above example ( 30 ! 25 x 50!30 ).

Or am I missing something big time here?

rainforest1155

If there are more keywords than there's room for related keywords, the system would obvioulsy have to make a selection. To my knowledge, there are no details available on how this system works exactly.

That said, looked at our sample gallery and the related keywords that show are the ones that are most used in the keyword gallery. So I think it's save to say that the system goes by quantity when selecting the related keywords to show.

DesptachesGallery

Yeah that would be a logical assumption, Sebastian. I don't suppose someone could look at the source code and provide us all with a primer as to how it works and if it's possible to make a change to the number can be increased from the current 5. I ask about the latter because once we know the former, then we can all go through the usual suggestion voting on the topic.

Please appreciate the concern here. If someone builds a KW taxonomy using, say US State, as a high-level keyword, and tags each photo with a state, and maybe a country or city, then pretty soon the current architecture would max out the lower-level keywords as the higher level ones will have a greater quantity. In fact, if I've done the math correctly, it's in the mid-order keywords of such a taxonomy - something like "landscape", "river", "desert", where those three mid-levels would be used quite often for say, New Mexico or Utah.

So the more info we can get helps us refine not just how we use SM, but what we can do to help our own SEO initiatives.

Anyone else care to weight in here?

Thanks/Pete

rainforest1155

Pete,

There's no option to increase the number of related keywords. You could only put in a suggestion on the SmugMug feedback page. That said, keep in mind that we're still working full steam on this as Don outlined in his recent post here. Therefore I don't think it makes sense for us to effort into adding new features to the current style.

DesptachesGallery

Sebastian, yep OK fair enough. Thanks for your help. We'll push ahead anyway.