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Desperately Seeking Help
Greetings. Please help. I've been using a 10-D for a couple of years, and about six months ago bought a 430ex. I've been photographing for over thirty years. I went into the digital age kicking and screaming, but there's no going back at this point. I have mostly embraced it. I Love many things about it, but I am getting inconsistent results with my 10-D, especially with flash. Oy vay. And in my opinion, no matter how good the images look on the screen (to see my work, go to www.sarapiazza.com), if I can't get a good print--get this stuff out of the computer and into frames and books--it's all useless. I don't know if it's in the shooting or in post-production, or perhaps even my monitor settings,but here's what's happening: I am using a soft box on the 430; Large, fine, usually shooting on P, or AV or TV. Indoors, at a recent bat mitzvah, and at a party the other night, the unprocessed images look dull and lifeless, on the dark side (more so on my Edgartown computer, brighter on my Brookline lap top). I hit autolevels and sometimes they clear up into a fine looking image, but sometimes they become harsh with a green tinge, in these cases I go to levels to lighten, then boost the contrast. On the bat mitzvah images I used levels to lighten--alot!--and added contrast. The prints for the girl's album were acceptable, not great. At a recent outdoor wedding (see Erica and Scott), the flash fill was inadequate, imo. Many of the prints were on the dark side.
The frustrating thing for me is, the results are inconsistent. Sometimes the results are gorgeous, other times very disappointing. And with people counting on me, I'm basically freaking out. I never had these problems with my old Elan, 540ez, and Fuji Reala--always gorgeous results! Sorry to be so long, any help is gratefully appreciated. Thank you.
The frustrating thing for me is, the results are inconsistent. Sometimes the results are gorgeous, other times very disappointing. And with people counting on me, I'm basically freaking out. I never had these problems with my old Elan, 540ez, and Fuji Reala--always gorgeous results! Sorry to be so long, any help is gratefully appreciated. Thank you.
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My first recommendation is to move away from autoexposure when you are using flash. The camera can't properly keep things looking good when using flash, no matter what they say about E-TTL
This is typical of unprocessed images taken with auto exposure. The cameras system looks for middle gray (not exactly an exciting shade or color now is it
As with auto exposure, auto levels is not any better at making things right. My recommendation here is to move away from auto levels. Start using just regular levels. Why you may ask? Auto levels simply adjusts each channel (red, green, and blue) to not have empty histogram areas on the ends. This sometimes results in eliminating a color cast, but often times results in introducing one.
When using levels, you can edit each channel if you deem it needed to change the color balance, or you can stick to editing the RGB channel only which adjusts all the channels equally, brightening the image without changing the current color balance.
Are you using the cameras histogram to review the shots? This will give you a much better idea of the true nature of the photo. You cannot trust the LCD to accurately portray that. The LCD lies based on what kind of lighting it happens to be in. The histogram does not. So my recommendation here, if you are not already, is to learn to use the cameras histogram.
My other recommendation, if you don't already have and use a flash meter, get one, and start learning how to use it. A flash meter can tell you how much flash you are actually getting (usually as a percentage) in fill. It is much easier to dial in the right amount of flash power when you know how much you are working with. The meter I am currently using is the Sekonic L-358. Full featured, small, and light weight, it is a good value and a stout performer. It is the baseline meter I judge others by. It's not a magic wand, but it does give you a better shot at good consistant results than anything else provides.
You are getting bit by the auto bug. Kill it with a "can" of manual exposure, the histogram "fly swatter", and a flash meter "roach motel"
With film you had others doing the editing. With digital, you are the lab and have to deal now with what they dealt with. But fear not. Realizing that the lure of "auto" anything is a fools hope, so to speak, will let you jump to the next level
You now have to learn how to master the entire work flow, from capture, lighting, to processing, and prints. It is a new way of working. It is not the same as when using film, yes the camera and other tools are the same or similar, but you have to deal with the actual output now, instead of shipping that off to the lab to deal with.
It is an unpleasant awakening, but it will serve to make you a better photographer. Just as you learned to pay attention to things in the background when composing a shot, now you have other things to consider and master. We can of course help where we can, but your progress and results will of course continue to depend on you
"Failure is feedback. And feedback is the breakfast of champions." - fortune cookie
welcome to the forum-
I'm not sure if you could get better advice here on the forum and what you just got specifically than if you paid for it-
I'm sure you'll have some great before and afters to post in the near future-
george
Shay Stephens will come and give you a hand. Very well. Thank you.
To sara505
I began to shhot with flash and I am no pro.
Today I shoot a baptism and the results were not too good.
I could rescue some 50 photos out of 100. The half then.
Some are not that good ...
I have learned a lot and I still do from too sites I have been reading for 2 weeks now (in the shread http://www.dgrin.com/showthread.php?t=33703):
1. http://photonotes.org/articles/eos-flash/ and
2. http://www.planetneil.com/faq/flash-techniques.html this one beeing rather simple and pragmatic.
I shot today with Manual mode and - because the light was varying very much - a blew some pictures.
They are too white, burned.
Inside the chirch I shot Manual as the light was constant. But - because of my lack of practice in these matters - I tremble/shake some photos which irritastes me.
I was with 1/50 but with the attention of shooting the moment I spoiled it.
I am going to try to post here some pictures which I thing are good, not photoshoped yet. and others which are a shame...
If I can't succed posting in the same post please be patient and look at the various posts.
Thank you.
There is a window with light from the right side.
I was in Manual.
And here is the last I want to show you where the flash did marvelous job.
All pictures straight from CR2 unphotoshoped.
So start shooting manual exposure as soon as you can.
So, iow, go back to my early days when I was shooting with a retina IIa and no light meter, using diagrams on tri-x box. Well, maybe not exactly that primitive. But if I could learn it then (the most important things I ever learned about photography were in those days), I'll relearn manual again. I have no idea how to use a flash meter, or what to do with histogram info. I'm embarrassed with how little I suddenly know.
I'm off to shoot a newspaper assignment--an outdoor event with nary a cloud in the sky--will give manual a go.
I am already heartened by the responses. Thank you. Will be in touch.
www.SaraPiazza.com - Edgartown News - Trad Diary - Facebook
For me, and I am a newbe in this and I am like you (I learned a lot about photography about 40/45 uears ago, when you shoot with white skies this is what I do:
1. Shoot raw (CR2)
2. Read the light half for the sky and half for the scenario.
3. Lock the exposure.
4. Shoot.
5. Whatch the histogram.
Google about histograms. www.luminouslandscape.com is very good. There are others as good.
http://www.cambridgeincolour.com/tutorials.htm is also very good.
If anything I wronte is wroge, please Shay feel free to cryticize.
Thank you.
Herewith a shot for the sky and for the scenario as example.
Thanks for all your great advice. Yesterday I shot a job outdoors in bright sunlight and using manual camera and manual flash--I don't have a flash meter, I used distance method--I got the results I was looking for, good flash fill. But I found it slow going. Perhaps a flash meter will make this process easier?
Later in the day I shot an indoor job, also all in manual, but there wasn't enough light. I guess I don't understand how the whole manual thing works. I couldn't get a good exposure at all unless I cranked up the ISO, but isn't that what flash is for? To make up for low light?
I guess I am not quite getting this.
www.SaraPiazza.com - Edgartown News - Trad Diary - Facebook
Thank you for sharing your images and information. I feel as though I am going back to first grade, and I have been taking pictures for many many years. I used manual mode outdoors yesterday and got good results, good flash fill in bright sunlight. But very slow! I tried shooting indoors and have no idea how to do this--could not get an exposure. I think I need a flash meter, but have no idea how to use one. Perhaps the flash meter will tell me everything I need to know, but still, this seems so slow to me after doing everything automatically. Any experience you want to share with me will be very helpful. Thank you!
www.SaraPiazza.com - Edgartown News - Trad Diary - Facebook
Is this your name ?
Do not panic.
(Me saying this as if I were an expert !...:D)
My advise - Shay can confirm if he wishes - is to repeat the same situation over and over untill you dominate it.
Shoot - see the results - shoot corrected - see the results - shoot better - see the results - shoot and bingo.
To begin with do not work with flash.
It is more difficult to work with.
Read the f... manual.
Shoot doesn't matter what. Just to shoot. This way you will learn to control the camera and feel it.
Read the f... manual again. You will discover other things you could not understand the 1.st time.
This is the way I felt and feel about photography. Be humble. We will never know enough. There is so much to learn ...:):
Well, just a tip from a pretencious portuguese amateur photographer...:):
Let us see your work.
Learn to post. It's incredibly simple.
You do have a huge advanged over me: you speak english 1.256,67 times better than I do ...
Regards.
I have just been at your site.
I feel embaraced now because I was trying to teach you when you are a professional and I am an amateur...
I just meant to try to help.
You do have many pictures of great quality.
Of course, I do not like them all but I do the most part of it...
I do have a daughter which name is Sara. She will be 28 in August.
The photo is by my wife.
Regards
At least I used to think I was a professional, but now I have lost control. I also prefer no flash, but there are times when it is necessary. I need to master shooting manually. I think the key may be in the flash meter?
Is this what you use? Thank you for your help--very much needed.
Sara
PS I also have a 28 year old daughter, named Maria. She studied at the U of Lisbon one year.
www.SaraPiazza.com - Edgartown News - Trad Diary - Facebook
I do not use lightmeters at all.
Have to go now...
Regards.
Okay, now I think I see how to include quotes in my reply. I am learning there is an answer to everything, but finding the answer often involves a lot of questioning and searching and exploring.
You don't use light meters or flash meters and you shoot manually? Please explain this to me.
Yes, small world!
www.SaraPiazza.com - Edgartown News - Trad Diary - Facebook
You could use your built-in meter to take a reading of the overall shot or spot from whatever you want a reading from.
Turn to manual and turn on your fash.
Dial in the settings you just read into the camera and also turn the flash to manual.
Set fash ouput to 1/4 or 1/8 or whatever is needed/wanted for your subject and fire away. Fine tune via histogram.
At least thats my lazy way:uhoh
Bod.
Jerry Lodriguss - Sports Photographer
Reporters sans frontières
How do I determine the manual flash settings? On my outdoor job I took a reading with camera, exposed normally, then set the flash according to the distance scale.
Indoors I could not get a good reading with my camera, there wasn't enough light. I just ordered a sekonic flash meter from b&h, I think this will help. I'm figuring out that a flash meter will tell me all the settings I need--aperture, shutter, flash output, correct?
This is crazy. I've been a photographer for 35 years, and I have to relearn all this stuff. Haven't used manual since my old Spotmatic F days (I loved that camera!).
Sara
www.SaraPiazza.com - Edgartown News - Trad Diary - Facebook
Dear Bodwick, this is my next project, how to use the histogram. Any explanation will be gratefully appreciated.
Sara
www.SaraPiazza.com - Edgartown News - Trad Diary - Facebook
The first thing I would suggest to do is to determine the "working" Guide Number for your equipment.
Choose the lens and body you will use most often, set the camera to ISO 100, set the shutter to 1/200sec, set up an 18% gray target at 10 feet, set the flash at full power, and then set your aperture according to the following:
At 24mm the guide number is 25m, 81ft.
At 28mm the guide number is 27m, 88ft.
At 35mm the guide number is 31m, 101ft.
At 50mm the guide number is 34m, 110ft.
At 70mm the guide number is 37m, 120ft.
At 80mm the guide number is 40m, 130ft.
At 105mm the guide number is 43m, 141 ft.
Your aperture f number should be using the appropriate GN for the "effective" lens focal length, divided by 10 (the distance in feet for this test.)
For instance, if you are using a lens of focal length 50mm, on a Canon crop camera with a 1.6 crop factor (your 10D), that becomes around 80mm. Since the camera can relay information about the focal length, and because the 430EX flash will understand that this is a crop factor camera, it will adjust the flash's zoom to around 80mm, so you use the 80mm GN. Dividing that by 10 yields an aperture of f13, so that's what you would set for the manual lens opening at ISO 100.
Now bracket the shot 1 full stop over and under f13.
Using PhotoShop or the GIMP, crop to the gray target, and see if the histogram in the Levels shows the peak centered for any of the exposures. If it is centered for the base exposure of f13, the manufacturer's rating of GN agrees with your empirical test. Otherwise you are in disagreement, but now you know how the flash is working with "your" equipment. Just take the correct f number and multiply by 10, because the test is at 10 feet. The resulting GN is correct and accurate for your system.
Let's say that the manufacturer's GN matches your test, you can now make simple caculations where:
GN/distance = f-stop
GN/ f-stop = distance
Incidentally, for ISO 200, increase the GN by 1.4 times, and for ISO 400 increase by 2 times.
BTW, if you don't have an 18% gray card, a human palm is about 1 stop more reflective, so it makes a "handy" reference when needed.
ziggy53
Moderator of the Cameras and Accessories forums
With a 10D and a 430ex, shooting flash outdoors should be duck soup.
I agree with Shay's advice, but sometimes there is an easier way to get started.
Put your camera in Av mode - you choose the aperture in Av mode - SO make sure there is enough light that the shutter speed is acceptable, because in Av mode the camera can choose a very slow shutter speed if it is dark. But if you are outdoors this is should be rare - just keep an eye on the shutter speed with your chosen aperture in Av mode. Set the 430ex for ETTL, and let the strobe add light to the foreground - you can then fine tune by dialing a little +/- Flash Expsoure Compensation on the back of the 430ex with the dial/buttons there.
OR shoot the camera in Manual mode entirely, with the strobe in ETTL. This will look more like a flash shot.
In Av mode the basic exposure chosen by the camera via the shutter speed is for the background, and the light emmitted by the flash is for the subject at the point of focus. This is very easy to do - I do it a lot when shooting in sunlight. Give it a try and see if you like the look. You should not see any flash shadow at all.
And a hearty welcome to dgrin. I liked you essay about the bicyclists in the dirt. Lovely website.
Moderator of the Technique Forum and Finishing School on Dgrin
Sara,
I find it easier to use Av mode when I am using fill. Otherwise the flash will try to light the entire scene, rather than only filling the shadows. The other good part about this is that E-TTL seems to work nicely with a minimum of FEC (flash exposure compensation).
I am getting much better with indoor and night time flash shots. You will need to bump the ISO to get decent handholding speeds (above 1/60). I usually use F5.6 (for decent DOF), 1/100, ISO400, M mode and set the flash for E-TTL. When bouncing I usually need to add some + FEC, but for direct flash, even with the diffuser pulled down I usually do not need to use any FEC.
Shooting RAW will also help. The downside is that you may wind up with hundreds of images to convert and post process :uhoh But it will help with those blownout or heavily shadowed areas. Using higher ISOs makes getting a good exposure even more critical. Noisy skin looks real bad
Look here and here for some excellent info on using flashes with Canon cameras. If these were already posted, excuse me
Hope this helps some,
Steve
I even did not know about them !...
If I told you the way I photo it would creat a confusion ...
You have enought to absorb by now ...
Regards.
Thanks everyone--yes, much to absorb! I am printing this stuff out to read slowly. I look forward to trying some of these techniques.
This is a great forum, glad I signed on with smugmug (and thanks for the comments about my web site and my "boys on bikes" gallery)
I haven't gotten around to posting my profile yet, but will tell you that I divide my time between Edgartown on Martha's Vineyard, where I grew up and raised my family; and Brookline, MA where I am in school, pursuing my post-childrearing career, studying to be a cantor. I'm on the edge of my learning curve every minute of my life--musically, digitally, technologically--my head spins most of the time.
I went into digital photography kicking and screaming--I came up through the darkroom days, oh, the hours spent in those make-shift, stuffy, smelly, dark spaces, but it was magic, wasn't it? But I'm glad to be back out in the light. But so much to learn. Thanks!
And btw, I was a surfer in my younger days! Now I stick to my bongo-board, hanging ten four stories above Beacon St.
Thanks, everyone, will be in touch.
Sara
www.SaraPiazza.com - Edgartown News - Trad Diary - Facebook