I didn't expect this discussion to go THIS far. We all do things different, and we all learn as we go. Though I've been shooting for ~18 years, I'm new to the "business" and I still do it for fun, rather than money. If I made all the previous comments as a hobbiest, rather than a business, I doubt it would have gone this far.
But, I do appreciate all your comments, disagreements, and concerns. Thank you.
It's good conversation, makes us all take a better look at what we are doing and how we do it....which is good. Only thing missing was us being in the same room with our favorite beverages, while we talked.....:slurp :slosh
Pretty good response for ~18 hrs. Very well spoken opinions by all. :
Obviously a debate that could continue endlessly...so I'll put a little of what I've learned here to some use by thanking everyone for their contributions and giving a credit to each of you
A sincere thank-you to all those who read but did not post and a special appreciative thank-you to: (in order of appearance)
Jeffro
The Touch
KC Action
Birdman Photographer
Mercphoto
Seefutlung
Maczippy
Elf1
Xtnomad
Now as pointed out by Maczippy, maybe this should have been posted in the Business section (I should have throught of that initially) so lets wrapp this up sooner than later and get out there and make our next photoshoots the best we've ever done!! :photo
It's good conversation, makes us all take a better look at what we are doing and how we do it....which is good. Only thing missing was us being in the same room with our favorite beverages, while we talked.....:slurp :slosh
That sounds much better - I'll need a cold one after this thread!!! :slosh (okay, maybe a few!)
It's very difficult to have this type of conversation by text - thank goodness for Smilies!
Insanity: Doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. - Albert Einstein :bash
I just finished reading a rather long thread on SportsShooter regarding spec photographers hurting the industry (undercutting the market) http://www.sportsshooter.com/message_display.html?tid=19300
and I was very disappointed to arrive at the end and still not know what any pro considers to be fair market value.
As I'm not able to post on that site I thought I would pose the question here (forgive me for asking yet another pricing question but I think this is important).
How much do you ask for when covering a professional racing event and if you submit work after the fact, what is a fair market price for a published image??
In my limited experience I have not seen mags offering any more than $800.00 for a cover (depending on circulation of course) so inside images have to be less...which means unless you're nailing multiple covers and a dozen inside shots every month, how does a pro cover all the expenses of being a professional?
Most full time pros were annoid at the fact that some people shoot local races or events on spec and then try to sell images for $25 or $50 because these low prices are hurting the photography industry as a whole. My feeling is that a quality photogapher offering a quality service is not negatively affecting the industry with this business (be it part time or full time). I do understand however, that offering your images to publications for nothing more than gate access or a few bucks and your name in print is hurting the industry...so what should the minimum price be?
I'd like to be considered by others as a positive asset to the community/industry but in order to play by the rules I need to know what they are
Thanks for reading and all opinions are welcomed!
So did we answer your question? HAHA!!! :lol4
Insanity: Doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. - Albert Einstein :bash
It's good conversation, makes us all take a better look at what we are doing and how we do it....which is good. Only thing missing was us being in the same room with our favorite beverages, while we talked.....:slurp :slosh
I have a Cappuccino
I'll share some more thoughts tomorrow - I'm trying to walk away from my work for a week or two (pre-USGP) to "regenerate" but I think this discussion is very healthy. That said Touch dude...If you were an amateur I'd say the same thing (oh I know i'm annoying...), but why should you do *anything* for free? After all this is America...
Andrew
AutoMotoPhoto® Motorcycle Racing Photography Next Race - MotoGP Donington
:ivar
Sure, I guess it was answered in different ways. All of which I'll give careful condsideration to while continuing to offer only my best efforts and taking every opportunity to improve anything I can, anytime I get the chance.
My motto has always been "perfect is not good enough".
In other words the minute I'm satisfied with any aspect of my photography/business is the minute I stop improving.
As for specifics...here's what I'm taking away from this conversation:
1) Offer only my best efforts
2) Produce professional quality images and accept only professional quality compensation
3) Hard work is only the begininng...but hard work without a little professional consideration and etiquette is the begininng of the end!
Things I've always felt anyway, but nice to have a little confirmation now and again
My motto has always been "perfect is not good enough".
...snip...
As for specifics...here's what I'm taking away from this conversation:
1) Offer only my best efforts
2) Produce professional quality images and accept only professional quality compensation
3) Hard work is only the begininng...but hard work without a little professional consideration and etiquette is the begininng of the end!
The other thing I'll throw out is that creating perfect images makes for great art but does not "make" the business. In other words, building a better mouse trap does not guarantee sales. The business end of any business is at least as important as the product end of any business. I've found it much, much easier to learn the photography side of things. I find it much harder to learn the business side of things.
As my old camera salesman told me just before he quit his job at the camera store to start his own photography business, "my college degree taught me everything I needed to know about photography, but they didn't require me to take a single business course, and that is disappointing".
The other thing I'll throw out is that creating perfect images makes for great art but does not "make" the business. In other words, building a better mouse trap does not guarantee sales. The business end of any business is at least as important as the product end of any business.
As my old camera salesman told me just before he quit his job at the camera store to start his own photography business, "my college degree taught me everything I needed to know about photography, but they didn't require me to take a single business course, and that is disappointing.
Nice quote but a business man might say ( you sell a service ) not just photos! I am having first hand experence in this. I am a career mechanic and racer and the new racers are a new breed to deal with and have found that selling you self to the track owners as a asset to thier business is as important as artistic value.
Very interesting discussion. And yes, this probably could go to the business
section
If I said I was going to give my mkII w/500mm away, would most of you
thing I was crazy? If you'd think I was nuts, then think about what you
charge for a photo. Cause if it's not enough, that's what you are doing.
Giving your valuable time and equipment away.
Ian
Moderator Journeys/Sports/Big Picture :: Need some help with dgrin?
This my saying, if a spec photographer can take a photo better then a pro photographer then they deserve it more then them. But if the magazine is buying crappy product and putting into their magazine then there not worth the time of the pro photographer, I'm sure he could sell his images to a magazine with more class.
Nice quote but a business man might say ( you sell a service ) not just photos!
You mis-read me. Whether you are a business selling a service or a business selling a photo you are still a business. And if you are trying to run a photography business you do not learn how to run the business by taking nothing but photography classes.
I am a career mechanic and racer and the new racers are a new breed to deal with and have found that selling you self to the track owners as a asset to thier business is as important as artistic value.
I'm finding people simply put less monetary value on things altogether. Kids these days, they expect to get music for free. Movies for free. They expect photos for free. I've also grown to learn the track owners think they are providing us photographers something of far more value than it really turns out to be.
Yes I'm getting cynical. Especially about the kids thinking its silly to actually pay for anything. Especially when they come up to me and ask how they can get their photos without the word "proof" splashed across it. As if "buying it from the very website you screen-grabbed it from" is not an obvious enough answer. Sigh.
Not sure if I hi-jakced this or not, but it does seem to fall under the "Important Questions" banner. How to convince a generation that believes things on the web are free to actually pay for something? The only solution I have found thus far is simply never post anything on the web, period. Offer day-of-race sales only, and as prints only. Which of course requires equipment, a small staff, etc....
You mis-read me. Whether you are a business selling a service or a business selling a photo you are still a business. And if you are trying to run a photography business you do not learn how to run the business by taking nothing but photography classes.
I'm finding people simply put less monetary value on things altogether. Kids these days, they expect to get music for free. Movies for free. They expect photos for free. I've also grown to learn the track owners think they are providing us photographers something of far more value than it really turns out to be.
Yes I'm getting cynical. Especially about the kids thinking its silly to actually pay for anything. Especially when they come up to me and ask how they can get their photos without the word "proof" splashed across it. As if "buying it from the very website you screen-grabbed it from" is not an obvious enough answer. Sigh.
Not sure if I hi-jakced this or not, but it does seem to fall under the "Important Questions" banner. How to convince a generation that believes things on the web are free to actually pay for something? The only solution I have found thus far is simply never post anything on the web, period. Offer day-of-race sales only, and as prints only. Which of course requires equipment, a small staff, etc....
Nicely said. I agree 100%. This I why I stopped shooting MX. And plan in the future just to learn whos posting what and stop shootng them, even considering doing private shoots of a rider or two for a fee and only dealing with thier guardians.
You know, when you have the manager of one of the AMA top racers tell you that they get xxx pictures for free from xxx so we've never had to pay for pictures, and then go onto say, we just can't afford it..
Uh huh..right.
AutoMotoPhoto® Motorcycle Racing Photography Next Race - MotoGP Donington
:ivar
Comments
It's good conversation, makes us all take a better look at what we are doing and how we do it....which is good. Only thing missing was us being in the same room with our favorite beverages, while we talked.....:slurp
Pretty good response for ~18 hrs. Very well spoken opinions by all.
Obviously a debate that could continue endlessly...so I'll put a little of what I've learned here to some use by thanking everyone for their contributions and giving a credit to each of you
A sincere thank-you to all those who read but did not post and a special appreciative thank-you to: (in order of appearance)
Jeffro
The Touch
KC Action
Birdman Photographer
Mercphoto
Seefutlung
Maczippy
Elf1
Xtnomad
Now as pointed out by Maczippy, maybe this should have been posted in the Business section (I should have throught of that initially) so lets wrapp this up sooner than later and get out there and make our next photoshoots the best we've ever done!! :photo
Chris Sedg. :cool
www.christophersedgwick.com
That sounds much better - I'll need a cold one after this thread!!! :slosh (okay, maybe a few!)
It's very difficult to have this type of conversation by text - thank goodness for Smilies!
- Kevin
So did we answer your question? HAHA!!!
- Kevin
I have a Cappuccino
I'll share some more thoughts tomorrow - I'm trying to walk away from my work for a week or two (pre-USGP) to "regenerate" but I think this discussion is very healthy. That said Touch dude...If you were an amateur I'd say the same thing (oh I know i'm annoying...), but why should you do *anything* for free? After all this is America...
Andrew
Next Race - MotoGP Donington
:ivar
Sure, I guess it was answered in different ways. All of which I'll give careful condsideration to while continuing to offer only my best efforts and taking every opportunity to improve anything I can, anytime I get the chance.
My motto has always been "perfect is not good enough".
In other words the minute I'm satisfied with any aspect of my photography/business is the minute I stop improving.
As for specifics...here's what I'm taking away from this conversation:
1) Offer only my best efforts
2) Produce professional quality images and accept only professional quality compensation
3) Hard work is only the begininng...but hard work without a little professional consideration and etiquette is the begininng of the end!
Things I've always felt anyway, but nice to have a little confirmation now and again
Chris Sedg. :cool
www.christophersedgwick.com
As my old camera salesman told me just before he quit his job at the camera store to start his own photography business, "my college degree taught me everything I needed to know about photography, but they didn't require me to take a single business course, and that is disappointing".
A former sports shooter
Follow me at: https://www.flickr.com/photos/bjurasz/
My Etsy store: https://www.etsy.com/shop/mercphoto?ref=hdr_shop_menu
Chris Sedg. :cool
www.christophersedgwick.com
section
If I said I was going to give my mkII w/500mm away, would most of you
thing I was crazy? If you'd think I was nuts, then think about what you
charge for a photo. Cause if it's not enough, that's what you are doing.
Giving your valuable time and equipment away.
Ian
Setup: One camera, one lens, and one roll of film.
I'm finding people simply put less monetary value on things altogether. Kids these days, they expect to get music for free. Movies for free. They expect photos for free. I've also grown to learn the track owners think they are providing us photographers something of far more value than it really turns out to be.
Yes I'm getting cynical. Especially about the kids thinking its silly to actually pay for anything. Especially when they come up to me and ask how they can get their photos without the word "proof" splashed across it. As if "buying it from the very website you screen-grabbed it from" is not an obvious enough answer. Sigh.
Not sure if I hi-jakced this or not, but it does seem to fall under the "Important Questions" banner. How to convince a generation that believes things on the web are free to actually pay for something? The only solution I have found thus far is simply never post anything on the web, period. Offer day-of-race sales only, and as prints only. Which of course requires equipment, a small staff, etc....
A former sports shooter
Follow me at: https://www.flickr.com/photos/bjurasz/
My Etsy store: https://www.etsy.com/shop/mercphoto?ref=hdr_shop_menu
Nicely said. I agree 100%. This I why I stopped shooting MX. And plan in the future just to learn whos posting what and stop shootng them, even considering doing private shoots of a rider or two for a fee and only dealing with thier guardians.
You know, when you have the manager of one of the AMA top racers tell you that they get xxx pictures for free from xxx so we've never had to pay for pictures, and then go onto say, we just can't afford it..
Uh huh..right.
Next Race - MotoGP Donington
:ivar