A Serious Problem We are Facing

dragon300zx

Let me add that this is a problem facing our posts and our Private Messaging and Email systems.

It is a problem I have noticed here more and more on dgrin lately and many many many of my car club forums. I feel it is time I finally call attention to this serious problem.

Dgrin.com has really blown up recently and become very popular and this only grows with each passing day. And with popularity comes the swarm of the "Help Vampires". They may mean well but without being put in check in a nice friendly way they will zap our strength.

They don't know what they are doing, they are not trying to cause harm but they zap the life out of every internet community and in order to stay strong we need to get a handle on them. What is a "Help Vampire" you ask? Well let me explain.

This quick guide to spotting and working with HV's is provided by http://www.slash7.com/pages/vampires

Identifying Help Vampires can be tricky, because they look like any ordinary person (or internet user, whichever is lesser). But by closely observing an individual's behavior using this handy checklist, you too can identify Help Vampires in the field:

• Does he ask the same, tired questions others ask (at a rate of once or more per minute)?
• Does he clearly lack the ability or inclination to ask the almighty Google?
• Does he refuse to take the time to ask coherent, specific questions?
• Does he think helping him must be the high point of your day?
• Does he get offensive, as if you need to prove to him why he should use Ruby on Rails?
• Is he obviously just waiting for some poor, well-intentioned person to do all his thinking for him?
• Can you tell he really isn't interested in having his question answered, so much as getting someone else to do his work?

Another key indicator for Help Vampires is the clearly stated but "impossible" question. These questions look reasonable on the surface, but in fact they are impossible to answer for a number of reasons. These questions include, for example, "How do I build a forum?" or "How can I make a chat site?" Their purpose is threefold:

• First, to identify a victim foolish enough to attempt to answer the impossible question
• Second, to distract the victim long enough to separate him from his fellows; and
• Lastly, to befuddle the victim's brain while their soul is being removed through the abdominal cavity by way of a standard-issue Bendy Straw.

But there is good news people. We beleive the HV can be saved.

Before we become infested and loose our energy, willingness to help, and generally friendly feeling to the community I would ask that everyone, AND I MEAN EVERYONE EVEN YOU, read this article and learn from it. Bookmark it, refference it, live by it.

again you can simply click here to check it out http://www.slash7.com/pages/vampires

Please Save DGRIN from the HV.

wxwax

I once felt a straw being inserted into my abdominal cavity.

Try everything once, that's what I say.

ultravox

Oops...

wxwax wrote:

I once felt a straw being inserted into my abdominal cavity.

Try everything once, that's what I say.

Where are the help vampire slayer's....
Is it a club or something like that?
Where can I pay my membership?
Can some one plese HELP me?
So many questions...
I am HV infected?

DJ-S1

Are you being funny or serious? Just ignore the newbie posts if they bother you, what's the big deal? It's not difficult.

I learned a lot when I started here; I asked a lot of dumb questions that were answered by patient Grinners. And I did a lot of searching and reading on my own too. The helpful atmosphere here is the whole reason it is getting more and more popular.

If you don't want to answer beginner questions, then don't answer beginner questions. Nobody will take offense.

dragon300zx

DJ-S1 wrote:

Are you being funny or serious? Just ignore the newbie posts if they bother you, what's the big deal? It's not difficult.

I learned a lot when I started here; I asked a lot of dumb questions that were answered by patient Grinners. And I did a lot of searching and reading on my own too. The helpful atmosphere here is the whole reason it is getting more and more popular.

If you don't want to answer beginner questions, then don't answer beginner questions. Nobody will take offense.

Serious.

It's not so much just newbies, etc. There is alot of this going on and its cluttering things up. People are posting in wrong categories, posting the same question over and over again, posting questions they could have answered in 30 seconds if they did some searching and reading, etc.... Also I did not just post this on a whim. Several other members of the forum's who know me to be the outspoken one have been discussing this with me for awhile and it was a rather large group that suggested I post this. It is not a matter of not wanting new members. It's not a matter of not wanting to help new members either. But alot of questions that are being asked could easily be answered by doing a search. People can't learn if all you do is hand feed them stuff (give a man a fish and he can eat lunch, teach a man to fish and he can eat for life). This is the biggest problem with american society and it shows on the internet too. People expect stuff to be spoon fed to them and THAT IS NOT HOW LIFE WORKS. It's not just a matter of keeping it off the forum, it's also a matter of teaching people how to think for themselves. Real problems can't be addressed when everyone is answering the same question over and over and over again. Also READ THE ARTICLE. It's not about ignoring questions it's about teaching people how to find answers.

wxwax

I sort the help questions into two categories: those willing to help themselves but who need a helping hand, and those who pretty clearly haven't made much of an effort.

Frankly, I give the same advice to both. Knowing full well that only one will be able/willing to use it.

dragon300zx

wxwax wrote:

I sort the help questions into two categories: those willing to help themselves but who need a helping hand, and those who pretty clearly haven't made much of an effort.

Frankly, I give the same advice to both. Knowing full well that only one will be able/willing to use it.

Which is exactly what the article talks about. Don't give the answer, give the answer on how to find the answer. Help them help themselves. Teach them to fend for themselves. THATS WHY PEOPLE HAVE TO READ THE ARTICLE.

arroyoshark

dragon300zx wrote:

Serious.

It's not so much just newbies, etc. There is alot of this going on and its cluttering things up. People are posting in wrong categories, posting the same question over and over again, posting questions they could have answered in 30 seconds if they did some searching and reading, etc.... Also I did not just post this on a whim. Several other members of the forum's who know me to be the outspoken one have been discussing this with me for awhile and it was a rather large group that suggested I post this. It is not a matter of not wanting new members. It's not a matter of not wanting to help new members either. But alot of questions that are being asked could easily be answered by doing a search. People can't learn if all you do is hand feed them stuff (give a man a fish and he can eat lunch, teach a man to fish and he can eat for life). This is the biggest problem with american society and it shows on the internet too. People expect stuff to be spoon fed to them and THAT IS NOT HOW LIFE WORKS. It's not just a matter of keeping it off the forum, it's also a matter of teaching people how to think for themselves. Real problems can't be addressed when everyone is answering the same question over and over and over again. Also READ THE ARTICLE. It's not about ignoring questions it's about teaching people how to find answers.

Dood, pardon my own brashness here, but you are either a boorish nerd, as your profile suggests...or you have leanings towards a wannabe elitest butthat (to sort of borrow a term from a motorcycle website).

There are many, as myself, who are attmpting to make transition from film to digital. We drop into the mix at various intervals and, from what I can determine, most ask questions that are pertinent to their learning from you all who are much more experienced and accomplished in this digital thing. Yeah we could exhaustively use search engines, but sometimes we also enjoy the social aspects of current advice too. I have made new friends this way on other sites of common interest. I thought this was much the purpose of this site...to exchange info, get to know some folks. If I have mistakenly come to this conclusion, and this is just the smoking room for digital topguns, then kindly direct me to a more suitable site.

I am probably one of those HV's you so much despise, at least to a degree. I try other avenues, such as the manuals, before asking here, also. Wrong forum category...thankfully patient mods will redirect. I am truly sorry I intrude in your special space, but if you are so damn smart as you think you are, then as another option, you can surely figure out how to ignore my stupid and mundane, to you, questions.


Whoa....welcome to Jo Mama :uhoh

dragon300zx

arroyoshark wrote:

Whoa....welcome to Jo Mama :uhoh

Dude chill. Did you read the article? Sounds to me like you didn't. You said that you read the manuals and try to find answers for yourself before asking a question here. Do you also use the search feature to see if the question has been asked before?

No where at all did I say people should stop asking questions. No where did I say helping people is bad. If you paid any attention over even the last week you would notice I have no problem helping people and answering questions I know the answers to.

Do you have kids? Family members, or clients who continually ask you the same question over and over again. Has it ever exhausted you to the point you didn't feel like answering them anymore.... Do you get sick of Are we there yet? Are we there yet? Are we there yet?

The point is simply for people to take 1 minute and do a search to see if the question has been asked and answered already. The point is to ask questions that are more directional. A question like "How do I get my 20D to take black and white photo's or sepia photo's in the camera so I don't have to do as much work in photoshop?" vs. "How do I get black and white photos from digital?". It's alot easier to help the first question than it is to have to ask 15 more questions like what kinda camera are you using, what software are you using, do you want to convert them or take them in the camera, etc....... All points which are made in the article and valid points. Think how you feel when you have to answer the same question 15 times, or have to ask 15 questions to find out what the person even is looking for.

See if you had taken the time to read the article I would hope you would have understood from it that it's about making forums more productive and healthy vs people get sick of the same ole same ole all the time. It's not an attack on people asking questions.

Awais Yaqub

:tough
You mean they will send me private message and asking stupid question ?
i should ignore them ?

dragon300zx

arroyoshark wrote:

Dood, pardon my own brashness here, but you are either a boorish nerd, as your profile suggests...or you have leanings towards a wannabe elitest butthat (to sort of borrow a term from a motorcycle website).

Oh and Arroyoshark. My post doesn't personally attack anyone. Actually it doesn't attack anyone at all. Dgrin.com is a civil forum and personal attacks are not what we do here. Thats what dpreview.com is for.

Andy

So, this article and thread here brings up an interesing topic.

Dgrin's different from most online forums, I think - we have a community that is endlessly patient with the n00best of n00bs. Folks here will answer any question no matter how small or insignificant, or how many times it's been covered, etc. And that's great. It's important for n00bs to feel non threatened.

I don't think Dragon's post of this was directed at anyone in particular, nor is it a bitch fest. Rather, it's some good public service, if it gets folks to poke around a bit, search a bit, before posting, that's great. But if they don't - so what - we'll answer any and all questions, this community has a lot going for it and I'm thankful for everyone here, who contributes their time and knowledge.

dragon300zx

Andy wrote:

I don't think Dragon's post of this was directed at anyone in particular, nor is it a bitch fest.

nod

Hence the comical tone to both the post and the article. Hence why I can't stress actually reading the whole article enough. It clearly explains everything, including the benifits of making sure a questions hasn't been asked and answered many times before. Even good ways to phrase questions. The whole point of the article is to make forums even more productive.

wxwax

Anybody who asks me for advice gets what they deserve!

Richard

dragon300zx wrote:

Think how you feel when you have to answer the same question 15 times, or have to ask 15 questions to find out what the person even is looking for.

See if you had taken the time to read the article I would hope you would have understood from it that it's about making forums more productive and healthy vs people get sick of the same ole same ole all the time. It's not an attack on people asking questions.

The world would certainly be more pleasant if people were smarter and more self-reliant. Until that happens, it seems to me that nobody is forcing you or anybody else to answer questions. I think pointing the clueless to existing threads is fine. The search feature on Dgrin is weak, so I generally use Google to search Drgin. But I realize that, sadly, not many people understand how to do this.

I am very grateful for the stuff I have learned here from you and many others. I also try to pass on what little I know to others who may know even less. But when someone is asking something I find stupid or annoying, I certainly have no problem ignoring the post and moving on. Sorry, Dragon, I just can't take this as a serious problem. Global warming, genocide in Sudan, runaway deficit spending. Those are serious issues. Yet another "which lens should I get" post (I am among the guilty here), well, my sense is that quite a few people here rather enjoy participating in those, and the ones who don't have no obligation to join in.


Regards,

dragon300zx

Ya know I'm glad I posted this cause it has made my day entertaining to say the least.

rsinmadrid dude trust me has nothing to do with "What lense to buy" posts. And the fact that you tactfully point out the answer to people who ask a question that has already been answered is one of the things this article suggests doing. And just like you said the world would be a much better place if people were smarter and more self relient.

But no where does my post say to not answer people's questions, and no where does it say to cut people off who don't do a search. Facts is I am a member of several forums who have started banning members for asking the same question over and over again. The article and the post are about learning how to get people to ask better questions and look stuff up for themselves just as much as it is about getting people to ask better questions themselves and them learning to look stuff up themselves.

Where does anyone see me suggesting a totalitarian approach to dealing with people asking questions.

Shay Stephens

So many windmills

dragon300zx wrote:

Let me add that this is a problem facing our posts and our Private Messaging and Email systems.

Raising awareness - good :
Thinking it will work - quixotic

dragon300zx

Shay Stephens wrote:

Raising awareness - good :
Thinking it will work - quixotic

who said I thought it will work. But hey it's already raising awareness, and if I can save some of the mods and other guys time and frusteration not having to answer the same question as often I'm all for it.

Afterall lord knows I have way more patience than you do for answering the same thing multiple times so I know you would have posted this if you had seen it.

DJ-S1

dragon300zx wrote:

Which is exactly what the article talks about. Don't give the answer, give the answer on how to find the answer. Help them help themselves. Teach them to fend for themselves. THATS WHY PEOPLE HAVE TO READ THE ARTICLE.

...which I didn't do. Sorry, my bad!

dragon300zx

DJ-S1 wrote:

...which I didn't do. Sorry, my bad!

Lol no worries I already figured as much.

arroyoshark

Andy wrote:

So, this article and thread here brings up an interesing topic.

Dgrin's different from most online forums, I think - we have a community that is endlessly patient with the n00best of n00bs. Folks here will answer any question no matter how small or insignificant, or how many times it's been covered, etc. And that's great. It's important for n00bs to feel non threatened.

That has been my experience on this site and I am most appreciative of that. I got many answers to questions posed by others that I wish I had asked earlier. Repeated questions, i.e. "What lenes", " What camera" or "How do I do this in CS2" or whatever, get varied responses each time they are raised. Gives me a broader perspective, then.

Andy wrote:

I don't think Dragon's post of this was directed at anyone in particular, nor is it a bitch fest. Rather, it's some good public service, if it gets folks to poke around a bit, search a bit, before posting, that's great. But if they don't - so what - we'll answer any and all questions, this community has a lot going for it and I'm thankful for everyone here, who contributes their time and knowledge.

Whether you found it enlightening or whether Dragon found his post entertaining I found something in his demeanor less attractive. There is that old saw about perception is reality....

Dragon, along the lines of perception, my personal remarks were unnecessary at best. I offer an apology for making those references in your thread. I for one would just wish threads like this were withdrawn. I read your article and found you repeated most of it in your thread. I still find some offense in your assertions, whether you find it humorous or not.

Nikolai

Hey Gary,
While I generally can see where you're coming from, the thing is - that's how life works.
A n00b does not know better...
He/she has no idea what to ask, let alone how to do it properly. Take one of my rather close and relatively old relative for instance. All he can tell me over the phone is that his email does not work. It's my responsibility to ask/know whether he is on PC/Mac, what OS it is, what his email client is, what kind of the internet connection he's on, who his ISP is, or, plain and simple, if there is a power outage in his house, or he maybe forgot to turn the monitor on.
Same with the n00bs. They don't know terms. They don't know slang and TLAs. Sometimes they simply don't know English that well. They came here to learn. And they often need help...

Of course, those Help Vampires do exist, no questions about it. As do Trolls. However, one thing about dgrin is a very active moderator squad.

So I personally would not worry that much. I do not see any sign of whole dgrin being swamped by the n00bs. And if I get tired of answering questions - guess what: I simply give it a break...:-). Besides, if I don't think that the he/she did his/her homework - I won't answer either. So it kinda works out by itself.

Cheers, mate!

dragon300zx

arroyoshark wrote:

I still find some offense in your assertions, whether you find it humorous or not.

Thats what makes being an american great. Thats whats great about this forum. We can express our own views and as long as we aren't attacking other people we have that freedom. No one says you have to agree with me. If the post makes you think about the topic at hand then it accomplished it's goal. You may not agree with it but others will. Nothing makes everyone happy so as long as it helps some people then thats all that matters.

dragon300zx

Nikolai,

Like you said Help Vampires do exist. And no one said they are specifically n00b's. And n00b's don't know it all thats why they are here. But with a little bit of time reading previous posts like the article in this post that explains good ways to form questions, or posts like

Before your first post http://www.dgrin.com/showthread.php?t=14046
How to use the search tool http://www.dgrin.com/showthread.php?t=16127
and many other threads in the Dgrin-How to do most anything thread http://www.dgrin.com/showthread.php?t=18703

they can learn alot and answer many of their questions in just a few minutes. No this thread won't solve the whole problem but as has been said many times here by me and others no one expects it to. But if it raises awareness and helps even a few people out thats all that really matters.

If a person truly doesn't know what to ask then part of their question is what to ask, if a person doesn't understand cause they are not fluent in english then yeah they need to ask for clarification, etc. The article nor my post say that those posts are bad. It just shows ways to help then learn the answers. And it shows ways to help correct people who already do know better but for some reason or another forgot. Where is everyone getting that I'm saying not to help. Why do people read things in to stuff that simply isnt there.

claudermilk

Entertaining article & thread. I've seen the phenomenon on other boards myself; I'll make the gentle RTFM or "Google is your friend" post and leave it at that. I think dgrin is a very good example of a board that has taken some of the steps noted; in the very-recent past when I was a total n00b here, I found the FAQ links and spent hours sifthing through them--I don't think I've seen another board with as extensive an archive of relatively easily-found answers to common questions. With that, and the old hands here, I don't think a HV has much chance of remaining one here.

dragon300zx

claudermilk wrote:

Entertaining article & thread. I've seen the phenomenon on other boards myself; I'll make the gentle RTFM or "Google is your friend" post and leave it at that. I think dgrin is a very good example of a board that has taken some of the steps noted; in the very-recent past when I was a total n00b here, I found the FAQ links and spent hours sifthing through them--I don't think I've seen another board with as extensive an archive of relatively easily-found answers to common questions. With that, and the old hands here, I don't think a HV has much chance of remaining one here.

Tis the hope

Stan

wxwax wrote:

Anybody who asks me for advice gets what they deserve!

Number 5 you must be nearly as old as the site... sir

Thanks for all your input

Stan
lowly 500 and some
I still know nothing

wxwax

Stan wrote:

Number 5 you must be nearly as old as the site... sir

Thanks for all your input

Stan
lowly 500 and some
I still know nothing

I'm a very mature 3 year old.

Sam

DragonZX,

Ok I have read all,..... (most)..... ok, ok some of the posts, and the artical (Ok I didin't actually read it, but I might)

I have two very important questions.

1. Why should he use Ruby on Rails?

2. What the H##L is ruby on rails?

Sam

ian408

You know that some people come looking for help. Perhaps it is their
first time with a board or maybe they didn't lurk to see what's what
because they need an answer. Sometimes it's just instant gratification.
Who knows?

It's ok to give the answer or at least most of it. But the goal is to teach
them to fish and not feed them.

dragon300zx

ian408 wrote:

You know that some people come looking for help. Perhaps it is their
first time with a board or maybe they didn't lurk to see what's what
because they need an answer. Sometimes it's just instant gratification.
Who knows?

It's ok to give the answer or at least most of it. But the goal is to teach
them to fish and not feed them.

Which is exactly what the article is talking about. It's not saying not to help, just to teach people how to help themselves at the same time and not expect instant gratification.