Photographing glass

PNR815PNR815 Registered Users Posts: 12 Big grins
edited July 18, 2006 in Technique
Hi everyone this is my first post, yay!! Anyway a company has asked me to shoot some product shots for them. I've attached a picture that I shot today, I used a white background and 3 lights. The problem I'm having is getting a perfectly white background and still keep the detail in the product. Any help is greatly appreciate, thanks!!!

Paulimg1665small9ou.jpg

Comments

  • spudjerspudjer Registered Users Posts: 42 Big grins
    edited July 6, 2006
    PNR815 wrote:
    Hi everyone this is my first post, yay!! Anyway a company has asked me to shoot some product shots for them. I've attached a picture that I shot today, I used a white background and 3 lights. The problem I'm having is getting a perfectly white background and still keep the detail in the product. Any help is greatly appreciate, thanks!!!


    If your shooting on reflective (paper/formica) background material....
    You'll need to use some black reflector cards positioned to show edges in glass. Position them on both sides and laying on surface out of viewfinder and above as needed. Then meter to get nice clean white background.

    That's my $.02. You'll just have to experiment. Try different shapes and/or colors too. (I don't know what client parameters arene_nau.gif ). Sounds like challenging fun.

    Do they want a white background?

    If you shoot on translucent (plexi/milkglass) background material.......
    You could also try lighting only the background to silohette the glass, however your foreground would go dark... unless you shoot on white plexi/milkglass and light from below as well as behind for white background. You then use white card reflectors to highlite the glass.

    OK... make that $.04... hope that helps :photo

    spudjer
    I'm worried about Gort. I'm afraid of what he might do, if anything should happen to me.:dood

    Gort! Klaatu barada nikto!
  • PNR815PNR815 Registered Users Posts: 12 Big grins
    edited July 6, 2006
    I shot this on white seamless background. I also have jet black background paper, do you think I'd be able to use that as a reflector? Yes I find this product to be quite challenging and I hope to learn a lot from this experience =). Sorry to sound like a noob but how do i meter for a white background? I have a Canon 30d, should i use spot metering?
  • wxwaxwxwax Registered Users Posts: 15,471 Major grins
    edited July 6, 2006
    Interesting problem.

    Ya know, this is in the wrong forum. You really want to be in the Technique forum.

    With luck, folks there will be able to give you some feedback.
    Sid.
    Catapultam habeo. Nisi pecuniam omnem mihi dabis, ad caput tuum saxum immane mittam
    http://www.mcneel.com/users/jb/foghorn/ill_shut_up.au
  • Art ScottArt Scott Registered Users Posts: 8,959 Major grins
    edited July 6, 2006
    My post is in color.....mixed into your posts.
    PNR815 wrote:
    Hi everyone this is my first post, yay!! Anyway a company has asked me to shoot some product shots for them. I've attached a picture that I shot today, I used a white background and 3 lights.
    What type of lights...strobes or incandescent reflector lamps???

    What format are you shooting in (format maybe wrong term....Hmmm) raw or jpg......shoot in Raw all the time.....gives the most control for post processing......


    The problem I'm having is getting a perfectly white background and still keep the detail in the product.
    Your seamless is graying out due to not enuff light hitting it, or wrong exposure or wrong white balance in post.......
    What is the distance from subject to background.
    You might want to go to your nearest DAV, GoodWill or Salvation Army Store and pick up a pure white kingsized flat sheet (preferably muslin) and make an extremely inexpensive light tent, using pvc pipe....this gets eve lighting all around your subject....make it to fit the largest piece this company wants you to shoot......if there is room in your studio area the sheet could be suspended by clothesline rope like a pup tent.......



    Any help is greatly appreciate, thanks!!!

    Paulimg1665small9ou.jpg


    PNR815 wrote:
    I shot this on white seamless background. I also have jet black background paper, do you think I'd be able to use that as a reflector? Yes I find this product to be quite challenging and I hope to learn a lot from this experience =). Sorry to sound like a noob but how do i meter for a white background?

    Do you have a handheld meter so that you can take incident readings rather than reflected...if you do not...see if a local camera store has a used one that they will rent you.....once you get your set up for this job shoot the set up for future reference with all pertinent infor for future commerical work of small subjects.....diagrams and notes can be your bestest friends in the future.




    I have a Canon 30d, should i use spot metering?
    If you are stuck with the relected in camera meter...then invest in an 18% grey card to meter off of for everything.....light meters try really hard to render all light at 18% grey, that is why a lot of photogs always bracketed or if their were really good they could look at a scene and tell if they needed to compensate for what the meter was going to show as the correct meter reading........

    For this kind of work an incident meter is almost mandatory especially if shooting on a schedule or you will spend tons of time guessing with in camera reflected metering.
    "Genuine Fractals was, is and will always be the best solution for enlarging digital photos." ....Vincent Versace ... ... COPYRIGHT YOUR WORK ONLINE ... ... My Website

  • JeffroJeffro Registered Users Posts: 1,941 Major grins
    edited July 6, 2006
    PNR815 wrote:
    Sorry to sound like a noob but how do i meter for a white background? I have a Canon 30d, should i use spot metering?

    It's gonna be like shooting snow. Your camera will want to make it 18% gray. I'd meter off a 18% gray card if you have it. That's also where a hand held light meter comes in handy. Otherwise use manual settings, take a shot, check it, adjust it...repeat.

    You can also shoot the white background and set your custom white balance to that.

    May not be the perfect answer, but it should help! :D

    Wow..art posted while I was typing...sort of the same track...
    Always lurking, sometimes participating. :D
  • mercphotomercphoto Registered Users Posts: 4,550 Major grins
    edited July 6, 2006
    PNR815 wrote:
    Hi everyone this is my first post, yay!! Anyway a company has asked me to shoot some product shots for them. I've attached a picture that I shot today, I used a white background and 3 lights. The problem I'm having is getting a perfectly white background and still keep the detail in the product. Any help is greatly appreciate, thanks!!!
    Clear glass and white backgrounds are not my favorite. Try black background. I think you will be surprised.

    See: http://mercphoto.smugmug.com/gallery/290218/1/11596572
    Bill Jurasz - Mercury Photography - Cedar Park, TX
    A former sports shooter
    Follow me at: https://www.flickr.com/photos/bjurasz/
    My Etsy store: https://www.etsy.com/shop/mercphoto?ref=hdr_shop_menu
  • PNR815PNR815 Registered Users Posts: 12 Big grins
    edited July 7, 2006
    Hi everyone, thank you for your posts. I bought some desk lamps at Home Depot, and bough white lights for them. Nothing special just 3 small desk lamps with hoods so i can direct the light. Also, I am shooting in manual mode using raw format. What is a 18% gray card? I don't know how to meter can someone please explain? I'm not sure if my local store rents out light meters, would I be better off buying one? If so which is a good brand? The point of using the white background is because these photos will go in a catalog that has white pages so to cut down on editing time I'm trying to get the background to be as white as the page.
  • JeffroJeffro Registered Users Posts: 1,941 Major grins
    edited July 7, 2006
    PNR815 wrote:
    What is a 18% gray card? I don't know how to meter can someone please explain?

    Just what it sounds like...it's a piece of card board that is 18% gray...which is what a camera tries to base it's metering off of. Usually the other side is white, which can be used for setting your white balance.

    If you don't know how to meter, in manual mode, I suggest reading your manual. Set shutter speed or set aperature, put gray card in your sets lighting, focus on card, fill the view finder with said card, adjust speed or aperature until your meter shows you have the right exposure. Leave settings like that, even once you put your subject in said lighting. Your meter will more than likely move, but since you metered off of the gray card you will be fine...try it you'll see.
    Always lurking, sometimes participating. :D
  • PNR815PNR815 Registered Users Posts: 12 Big grins
    edited July 7, 2006
    Thanks Jeffro, I understand what you mean now. I placed an order for the 18% gray cards, I should have them next week. I'm going to try shooting using the gray card first before investing in renting/buying a meter. I'll post the results next week.

    Paul
  • SamSam Registered Users Posts: 7,419 Major grins
    edited July 8, 2006
    Here is a photo I took a few years ago using a black background. While it's not great it may give you an idea of how a black backgrounf will look.

    No gray card, light meter, etc. Just two lights, RAW, shoot.

    Sam
  • mercphotomercphoto Registered Users Posts: 4,550 Major grins
    edited July 8, 2006
    PNR815 wrote:
    Hi everyone, thank you for your posts. I bought some desk lamps at Home Depot, and bough white lights for them. Nothing special just 3 small desk lamps with hoods so i can direct the light.
    Are you using anything to difuse the light? How about something to control the reflections you are going to get from the environment you are photographing in? (you don't want a reflection of the lights themselves on the glass, or of your camera, or of...)

    I have a feeling that photographing glass is a bit more involved than you believe it is going to be. This is a difficult subject to photograph properly.
    Bill Jurasz - Mercury Photography - Cedar Park, TX
    A former sports shooter
    Follow me at: https://www.flickr.com/photos/bjurasz/
    My Etsy store: https://www.etsy.com/shop/mercphoto?ref=hdr_shop_menu
  • ziggy53ziggy53 Super Moderators Posts: 24,128 moderator
    edited July 8, 2006
    Photographing transparent and shiny (reflective) objects is tremendously difficult.

    You are correct in shooting RAW. You need all the exposure latitude possible to massage the subtle tones and values from the piece.

    You are correct in using lights that run continuously. That's a very good way to pre-judge the shot.

    Try putting your head where the camera is going to be. Move the lights and reflectors and absorbers while you keep your head still. (This may require assistance. Use a video camera and large monitor if it helps to visualize.)

    Start with a single light, trying for a single element of the shot, and work with it until it is doing what you want. Layer in additional lights, watching how they coordinate or confuse the image.

    Learn to understand how the light works with the piece. Use a piece of paper to block your view of too much of the image area at one time until you get comfortable "seeing" the different image parts.

    Tenting the object can be extremely valuable in controlling reflections and avoiding hot spots. "Flag" is the name used to describe dark panels and sheets which are used to provide light control and add depth to the image.

    Take your time and don't photograph except to verify what you already see and to validate the exposure.

    You can use the palm of your hand in lieu of a gray-card. Your palm is about 1 stop more reflective than an 18% gray card so just compensate the exposure by adding 1 stop either via the aperture or the exposure duration. (You can do this because the lights are burning continuously. With flash you would control either the aperture or adjust the flash ouput at the flash head.)

    ziggy53
    ziggy53
    Moderator of the Cameras and Accessories forums
  • PNR815PNR815 Registered Users Posts: 12 Big grins
    edited July 10, 2006
    Hi everyone, thank you for all your replies! Here's what I'm doing about the lighting. I have the 3 desk lamps with homemade diffusers on them. There an no reflections that I have to worry about at this point so that's a relief. The only reason I need the pure white background is because they will be used in a catalog and I don't want to do any editing, I'm looking at over 100 photos. My gray card should be arriving soon so hopefully that will solve my background issues =).
  • DeeDee Registered Users Posts: 2,981 Major grins
    edited July 10, 2006
    This will help
    http://www.tabletopstudio.com/documents/glass_photography.htm#background

    My favoarite how-to site. Of course they are trying to sell their products, but for the light tent, as someone else already mentioned, a white sheet (or I use ripstop nylon) and the lights outside the tent will give you the best light.

    I have a makeshift "studio" I use. It's a folding card table.

    Unfold the legs and make the table. Lift the table and place it on a platform. I use my dining room table. Instead of putting the table the "right" way on the table, turn it on it's side so the solid table part is resting on the dining room table. The extended legs then form a place to drape your sheet or fabric. This leaves an open area for you to reach inside the tent to place your object.

    You can use the underside of the card table top to tape seamless paper, cloth or plastic to form a seamless background.

    This is the same idea as the light tents the site referenced above is selling. A lot less elegant, for sure, but since it's not my job to do this kind of photography, but only something I do once in awhile, I find this easier and more economical.

    I have some halogen work shop lights that come on a stand. They go outside the fabric on either side of my dining room table and provide the light I need. I use a tripod and a cable release to take the photos.

    You can get more elaborate with flashes instead of hot lights, but I like to see what the light is doing.

    If you read through all the "how to photograph glass" tutorials, you'll see the trick with the black pieces of cardboard.

    Since I use hot lights, I just take a lot of different manual exposures to get the correct exposure. One I see what is working, then I take the "real" photos.

    Sometimes I angle the work lights up toward the ceiling, or move them away more from the table, or lower them to get the light I want. I also sometimes use a small halogen desk lamp directly on the object inside the tent, I couldn't do this for glass, however, as it would reflect.

    I hope this helps a little... please show us your results.
  • ziggy53ziggy53 Super Moderators Posts: 24,128 moderator
    edited July 10, 2006
    Dee,

    That link is an excellent short tutorial on photographing glass objects! Good find!

    Thanks,

    ziggy53
    ziggy53
    Moderator of the Cameras and Accessories forums
  • SamSam Registered Users Posts: 7,419 Major grins
    edited July 11, 2006
    Dee,

    Thanks for the link. I like the tecnique with the bottom lighting and hole in the paper.

    Sam
  • PNR815PNR815 Registered Users Posts: 12 Big grins
    edited July 13, 2006
    Here's my newest shot taken with using the gray card. Is this better than ths first?

    img1842copy2jf.jpg
  • wxwaxwxwax Registered Users Posts: 15,471 Major grins
    edited July 13, 2006
    Still needs work. The right side is very hard to make out. It also looks like it has a tilt.
    Sid.
    Catapultam habeo. Nisi pecuniam omnem mihi dabis, ad caput tuum saxum immane mittam
    http://www.mcneel.com/users/jb/foghorn/ill_shut_up.au
  • JeffroJeffro Registered Users Posts: 1,941 Major grins
    edited July 13, 2006
    PNR815 wrote:
    Here's my newest shot taken with using the gray card. Is this better than ths first?

    img1842copy2jf.jpg

    You have a whiter white! Not sure I like that black thing underneath, or what it's purpose is. And it does look like it's about to fall over....
    Always lurking, sometimes participating. :D
  • Art ScottArt Scott Registered Users Posts: 8,959 Major grins
    edited July 13, 2006
    PNR815 wrote:
    Here's my newest shot taken with using the gray card. Is this better than ths first?
    yes better...but.......
    It looks a tad over exposed....are you in full manual when you shoot.....I will a lot of times have camera set up on tridod, place 18% greycard directly in from of subject fill frame with card only ...jot down meter reading...move from Aperature priority to full manual and set camera meter settings as they were in AP and shoot......and it maybe that for thei extremely clear glass you might need to under expose it...but that can be fixed in post with photoshop or what ever image editor you have.
    "Genuine Fractals was, is and will always be the best solution for enlarging digital photos." ....Vincent Versace ... ... COPYRIGHT YOUR WORK ONLINE ... ... My Website

  • PNR815PNR815 Registered Users Posts: 12 Big grins
    edited July 14, 2006
    Thanks for the feedback everyone. To clarify a few things, yes the product is tipping a bit, I was going to straighten it when I was finished. The point of the black paper is to give the base some definition. Since the entire object is clear, it's really hard to get good detail in the outline. I've tried using black paper as reflectors but I just can't seem to get it to work. Any suggestions?
  • ziggy53ziggy53 Super Moderators Posts: 24,128 moderator
    edited July 17, 2006
    PNR815 wrote:
    Here's my newest shot taken with using the gray card. Is this better than ths first?

    img1842copy2jf.jpg

    You are getting good control over the lighting, now just add some drama.

    The angle is a little too low to get a real feel about the shape of the object, so just raise the camera and shoot down a bit more.

    The edges of the object need a few more hints that they are edges. You may need a slit in the diffusor or add a strip of smooth aluminum foil (mounted on something like a strip of corrugated cardboard or a paint stir-stick) in the foreground and to the right. (Maybe also try aluminum foild wrapped around a tube, or just a really shiny tube instead.) Play around until you find something that works, kind of a "glint".

    Similarly, a dark strip, positioned to the back and left, just off camera. might yield a nice subtractive element. Again, try stuff 'till it works.

    A graduated backdrop can be simulated with a dark base, a light background, and a translucent "sweep". That will also make for easier cropping later.

    If you are shooting RAW, like I recommended, do rough processing with the RAW conversion, but stay in 16 bit as long as possible and save a 16 bit TIFF, or PhotoShop format, for additional processing. You will probably want to play with the "Curves" to enhance certain tones and demote others. You want to develope the "personality" of each image, which is hard to explain with words or even images, as every piece has its own attributes. Experience is best here.

    ziggy53
    ziggy53
    Moderator of the Cameras and Accessories forums
  • mercphotomercphoto Registered Users Posts: 4,550 Major grins
    edited July 17, 2006
    PNR815 wrote:
    Here's my newest shot taken with using the gray card. Is this better than ths first?
    Sorry, but no. I will re-iterate: do not photograph clear glass on a white background. Yes I know your reason for it, but it just doens't "work". Have their graphic designer design a black page layout for the shots of clear glass.

    Clear glass on white backgrounds are boring photos that show no detail. That is not the type of photograph you want in a catalog designed to sell that piece of glass. In my opinion, the problem here is you are attempting to give the customer what they say they want, but they don't realize what they are asking for is not what they really want to get.

    Show them a photo on white, show them a photo on black. That should change their mind.
    Bill Jurasz - Mercury Photography - Cedar Park, TX
    A former sports shooter
    Follow me at: https://www.flickr.com/photos/bjurasz/
    My Etsy store: https://www.etsy.com/shop/mercphoto?ref=hdr_shop_menu
  • PNR815PNR815 Registered Users Posts: 12 Big grins
    edited July 18, 2006
    Hey Merc, thanks for your feedback. What is happening is that their competitors are somehow shooting these products on a white background and the shots look great. Here's an example. How are they doing this?

    101qs10vq6.jpg
  • spudjerspudjer Registered Users Posts: 42 Big grins
    edited July 18, 2006
    PNR815 wrote:
    Hey Merc, thanks for your feedback. What is happening is that their competitors are somehow shooting these products on a white background and the shots look great. Here's an example. How are they doing this?

    101qs10vq6.jpg

    That looks like it is backlit on white plexiglass with black fill cards in tight and probably tweaked in post production.
    I'm worried about Gort. I'm afraid of what he might do, if anything should happen to me.:dood

    Gort! Klaatu barada nikto!
  • mercphotomercphoto Registered Users Posts: 4,550 Major grins
    edited July 18, 2006
    spudjer wrote:
    That looks like it is backlit on white plexiglass with black fill cards in tight and probably tweaked in post production.
    Interesting. I'd have to agree. Move all your lighting to the back and try that. I stand corrected, you can photograph clear on white. :)
    Bill Jurasz - Mercury Photography - Cedar Park, TX
    A former sports shooter
    Follow me at: https://www.flickr.com/photos/bjurasz/
    My Etsy store: https://www.etsy.com/shop/mercphoto?ref=hdr_shop_menu
  • PNR815PNR815 Registered Users Posts: 12 Big grins
    edited July 18, 2006
    I think I might buy these sheets of plexi for this project, what do you guys think?

    http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=150006671676&ssPageName=MERC_VIC_RSCC_Pr12_PcY_BIN_Stores_IT

    What are black fill cards, and how do I set them up to get those nice detailed edges? Thanks again for all the help and input.

    Paul
  • DeeDee Registered Users Posts: 2,981 Major grins
    edited July 18, 2006
    It looks to me...
    like the product has been "isolated" in photoshop or some other editing program.

    If this is going straight to web (not being offset printed) then you will have to mask out the background.

    The black fill cards look like pieces of black plastic, black thin cardboard, etc. They are placed rather close to the object, and then masked out in photoshop.

    If you look closely, there is color in the glass on the sides -- sort of a bluish gray and the back of the glass looks whiter.

    The black fill cards are vertical -- you'll need something to rest them against, perhaps a tall drinking glass would work.

    http://www.tabletopstudio.com/documents/glass_photography.htm#background

    Scroll down this page (linked above) and look at the Waterford Glass -- they have simply taken some black paper (looks like construction paper) and taped it to make a soft roll. They then placed the rolls very close to the glass to get the reflections.

    You could also stand the rolled paper on edge if you don't want to get black cardboard. Notice how close the black paper is to the clear glass object? After you take the photo you have to crop those black rolls or fill cards, or whatever out of the frame.

    I strongly suspect you will have to mask out your background to get close to the photo you showed us.

    You will also have to use curves to bring up the contrast to give the image some "snap."
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