Freaking out the Wedding photographer
Justiceiro
Registered Users Posts: 1,177 Major grins
So, this Friday some of my friends got married at the Hudson River Hyatt in Jersey City. Nice place, with an pier that faces lower mid-town manhattan. Good possibilities of Bride and Groom shots with the Empire State building, etc.
Apparently I seriously pissed of the pro working the wedding, and wanted to ask some of you wedding photographer's if you think the pro was being unreasonable (I think she was).
I showed up with my Lowepro full of lenses, my tripod, and my 20d. They had hired a pro wedding photographer, a lady working alone sporting an old Nikon and huge "sidecar" type flash for candids, as well as a hassy for the set shots of the ceremony.
I certainly didn't want to get in the pro photog's way, so I set up my tripod in the corner about 50 ft away, behind the pro, and used my 35-135, as well as my 300mm telephoto.
I wasn't the only person taking photos, but I was the only one with anything other than a point and shoot, mind you, the people with the point and shoots practically crawled up on stage, whereas I stayed the "furthest out" at all times (further out than the person that they hired to shoot, so there was no possibility of me entering her frame).
Incident #1
while I am sitting there, set up, waiting for the show to start, the photog comes up and says rather icily, "so, you're the backup photographer, huh?" I could tell she was getting territorial, so I said something self-deprecating about how I "just like to take pictures." she noticed my massive lens and said "you can take the close ups, and I can stick with the wide angle lens." I said "Ha ha, I wouldn't rely on any of my photos to turn out, ha ha." She responded quite bitchily "I was joking." sort of a snarl, really. Then she made some sort of snide comment about film vs. digital. Keep in mind that I am exuding maximum buddhaness at this point. I am totally chill and friendly.
So I figured, maybe she thinks I am going to ruch in and hog the shooting space during the whole deal, and she'll chill out after the ceremony is over. Or maybe I am imagining her hostility, and she's just sort of a Jersey kind of person. So I do my thing, and she does her thing
Incident # 2
After that we go up to the ballroom for the dinner, dancing, and general post-wedding gig. I put my camera away fro most of it, and remain at the table with my party, except when I am getting food or drinks. At some point I whip out the camera at my table and take a few shots of my friends. Strictly "holiday snap" kind of BS. the Pro photog IMMEDIATELY rushes over and says "have you managed to take anything good yet?" All of my friends, who didn't witness confrontation number one, look at her like she's a tool. She then snaps all of our photos, so I put my camera away. After she leaves there is a general discussion that she's super aggro, so I am convinced it's not just my spin on the situation.
Incident #3.
The ballroom has a balcony that overlooks the hudson and manhattan. The lady gettign married askes if I can take a photo of her and my wife, as well as some other girls (they have a sort of grrl power pack they run around in, like dangerous and sexy wolves). It's 11 pm at this point, so I take a photo of them, with my flash.
The photog, who is apparently omnipresent, literally RUNS up and asks me, (snidely, if I need to add it) if I got the skyline in the shot with the ladies. As am using my flash, and the empire state building is something like 1/2 a mile away, I answer (getting a tad snarky for the first time) "I don't think so, New York State is a little out of my flash's range."
She says, "let me see if I can do better" and takes a few shots. BTW, her flash is apparently malfunctioning, so she has to ask the girls if it went off.
So what's the deal? If you are a wedding photographer, do you find other folks with cameras threatening? Was I crossing some kind of line here? Or (since I was a guest at the wedding) was the photographer crossing a line?
Apparently I seriously pissed of the pro working the wedding, and wanted to ask some of you wedding photographer's if you think the pro was being unreasonable (I think she was).
I showed up with my Lowepro full of lenses, my tripod, and my 20d. They had hired a pro wedding photographer, a lady working alone sporting an old Nikon and huge "sidecar" type flash for candids, as well as a hassy for the set shots of the ceremony.
I certainly didn't want to get in the pro photog's way, so I set up my tripod in the corner about 50 ft away, behind the pro, and used my 35-135, as well as my 300mm telephoto.
I wasn't the only person taking photos, but I was the only one with anything other than a point and shoot, mind you, the people with the point and shoots practically crawled up on stage, whereas I stayed the "furthest out" at all times (further out than the person that they hired to shoot, so there was no possibility of me entering her frame).
Incident #1
while I am sitting there, set up, waiting for the show to start, the photog comes up and says rather icily, "so, you're the backup photographer, huh?" I could tell she was getting territorial, so I said something self-deprecating about how I "just like to take pictures." she noticed my massive lens and said "you can take the close ups, and I can stick with the wide angle lens." I said "Ha ha, I wouldn't rely on any of my photos to turn out, ha ha." She responded quite bitchily "I was joking." sort of a snarl, really. Then she made some sort of snide comment about film vs. digital. Keep in mind that I am exuding maximum buddhaness at this point. I am totally chill and friendly.
So I figured, maybe she thinks I am going to ruch in and hog the shooting space during the whole deal, and she'll chill out after the ceremony is over. Or maybe I am imagining her hostility, and she's just sort of a Jersey kind of person. So I do my thing, and she does her thing
Incident # 2
After that we go up to the ballroom for the dinner, dancing, and general post-wedding gig. I put my camera away fro most of it, and remain at the table with my party, except when I am getting food or drinks. At some point I whip out the camera at my table and take a few shots of my friends. Strictly "holiday snap" kind of BS. the Pro photog IMMEDIATELY rushes over and says "have you managed to take anything good yet?" All of my friends, who didn't witness confrontation number one, look at her like she's a tool. She then snaps all of our photos, so I put my camera away. After she leaves there is a general discussion that she's super aggro, so I am convinced it's not just my spin on the situation.
Incident #3.
The ballroom has a balcony that overlooks the hudson and manhattan. The lady gettign married askes if I can take a photo of her and my wife, as well as some other girls (they have a sort of grrl power pack they run around in, like dangerous and sexy wolves). It's 11 pm at this point, so I take a photo of them, with my flash.
The photog, who is apparently omnipresent, literally RUNS up and asks me, (snidely, if I need to add it) if I got the skyline in the shot with the ladies. As am using my flash, and the empire state building is something like 1/2 a mile away, I answer (getting a tad snarky for the first time) "I don't think so, New York State is a little out of my flash's range."
She says, "let me see if I can do better" and takes a few shots. BTW, her flash is apparently malfunctioning, so she has to ask the girls if it went off.
So what's the deal? If you are a wedding photographer, do you find other folks with cameras threatening? Was I crossing some kind of line here? Or (since I was a guest at the wedding) was the photographer crossing a line?
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That being said, what you describe is totally benign, and it would appear that she felt threatened for some reason.
Catapultam habeo. Nisi pecuniam omnem mihi dabis, ad caput tuum saxum immane mittam
http://www.mcneel.com/users/jb/foghorn/ill_shut_up.au
Sounds like an insecurity problem to me, what CAN you do in a situation like that??
I volunteered to do my upstairs neighbors wedding, and the shots turned out well, but I will never do it again.
The whole thing was rather amusing. This lady was REALLY almost having tics she was so torqued up. Had I been a less virtuosu person, we could have had some real fun (but hey, it's not my wedding)
We have to understand that digital took much work from professionals and this is what they do for a living... To have soup at home.
Life is not easy and it's what happens in Portugal as well, where the market is far smaller ...
The other day I have been shooting a baptism but I think I woun't do it again because it takes work from profs.
Of course it does not mean that they are rude.
On the contrary.
They should be polite and gentle to capture the fugitive client...
Saúde.
But the pro and her assistant totally ignored me and my daughter.
I guess our Sony F707 and F828 didn't worry her at all!
After the last event we shot (Rayna and I) we've sworn off weddings and events of that sort. We are just physically not up to all the hard work, the pressure, and the "lack of control." I think people are more polite at a wedding, but at this other event they all rushed in (and I do mean rushed in) to get at the food! We were supposed to take photos of them coming in the door! Well, that didn't happen. My flash couldn't recycle that fast!!!!
I think she saw your "professional" camera gear and freaked out.
It is also, almost impossible to be everywhere at once at a wedding. She probably saw you getting a table shot and realized she hadn't taken your table yet, and stuff like that. She was probably afraid that your pro gear would shoot better photos than any of the point and shoot cams, and that there might be some comments like, "Oh my friend got this really great photo." (and you, the professional, didn't)
My theory is (ego maniac that I am
I think you were more than polite and considerate and I wouldn't worry about it.
Where are your photos?
http://www.twitter.com/deegolden
I am not a wedding photog and have no desire to be one. I took photos at my adopted sisters wedding a few months ago and they came out well. But, I asked permission and the other semi-pro actually wanted me there as backup.
This weekends wedding was different. I had not asked permission even though I knew it would be given easily. My fiance only knew one person there, the bride. So I knew she would be left alone if I was off taking pictures. When I arrived I saw what looked like a pro running round taking pictures of the setup and guests as they arrived. He had 2 cameras around his neck snapping away. I enjoyed the festivities and being able to relax.
I saw tons of P&S shooters, mostly Canon. Not that there is anything wrong with that.
I look over and he has a scowl and starts fiddling with buttons and looking through the viewfinder. I asked him if everything was ok. He said "do you remember how to change the autofocus area selector on the D70?" It has been a while since I played with a D70 so I asked if he had the focus selector lock on. He was not sure what I was asking so I pointed to the lock and said now use the rocker switch to select your focus area. He did and mumbled thanks and walked off taking photos.
I did not talk to him again the rest of the wedding. I am interested to see the photos from the wedding. I do not doubt his skill at all. I just found it interesting that he did not know his equipment that well. It may have been new or simply a backup.
I am now in the process of teaching my dad how to use my camera. He taught me how to use his Minolta years ago. Now he gets to shoot my wedding with my camera. I will make sure that he knows how it works before sending him off. I will have a pro there. The pro and his wife are dear friends. I will be talking to them this week to decide on how our wedding will be shot.
The pro friend does have a love/hate relationship with me. He drools over my gear everytime we are together.
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if i were you i'd just disregard her and did whatever i wanted.
after all, the only thing that differenciate the "pros" and the "not pros" is that the pros shoot for a living (at least that's what it looks to me)
Unsharp at any Speed
People getting in the shot all the time
Friends of the family who think they are pro who try to take control of everything
Other People's flash going off out of sync with our shot and ruining the shot (I have had this happen)
Etc.
But as long as the person stays out of my way I could care less who is shooting. I already got paid after all or I wouldn't be shooting. Also my contract carry's verbage letting the client know that these things can cause problems and ruin shots, and if they do that's not my fault. I am a photographer after all not crowd control and that way I don't have to get snippy with people.
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Anyway, from what you have described ...
She was working for bread and butter. You were having fun. She had an outdated, way less effective gear compared to yours. Of course she felt threatened...
Of course, if she's in the business then she has to stay on top of the game, have a best gear, best skills, etc.. But.. life can make some adjustments, you know...
My current approach: do not bring any heavy photographic equipment to the wedding (or a similar event) you are attending as a guest - unless you're specifically asked to do so by the organizers. After all, why not relax when you have a chance...
When asked, make sure they tell the primary photog about it and OK it with him/her in advance.
Finally, when you arrive - approach him or her first, explain the situation and make a point that you're not selling your pictures and not threatening his/her business.
This approach worked for me in a few cases I had a potential head-on-collision. We had friendly discussions, talked shop, shared chimping moments - it was rather nice actually..
HTH
A former sports shooter
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Most likely, she is already hip deep in the failure of her business model and she is hyper sensitive and lashes out with *no* provocation.
Your description of your behaviour is the perfect example of a guest shooting photos. Staying out of the way and not trying to control the event will allow the main photographer to do their job with little distraction or hassle. And at the same time, all enjoy being able to get photos.
I strongly disagree with the photographers (or any vendor, hello dictatorial officiants, I'm talking to you!!!) who try to monopolize the event and forbid others from taking *any* photos. What happens if the main photographer loses all the photos for some reason (it happens). If no one else has taken a single meaningful photo, then poof, the bride and groom are left out in the cold. So yes, guests should be allowed to take photos. But not to the point where they impeed the main photographer.
The perfect guest would take photos of stuff the main photographer won't be shooting. Personal photos, photos of stuff going on in the corners, outside, before and after the wedding. But don't try to mirror everything the main photographer is shooting.
What good is 100 photos from all the different guests of the bride and groom walking up the aisle? Shoot from your seat if you feel you must, but don't block the aisleway or the main photographer, your photos are not going to be as good (most likely) due to a number of factors, and if you ruin the chance for the main photographer, you are in fact harming the bride and groom!
So it's a matter of balance, both from the photographer and the guest. You both have the right to shoot, you don't have the right to deny that to anyone, photographer or guest.
"Failure is feedback. And feedback is the breakfast of champions." - fortune cookie
Jamie
Just sayin'
shooter over on FM. Actually, I've probably put a link to it here somewhere
too (by now, it's probably archived in the bit bucket though).
Regardless. One shooter placed great restrictions on the bride and groom
with respect to other photographers. Going so far as to say that if someone
got in the way or brought the big guns, he'd leave (and leave the B&G with
the bill and no pictures). In his replies, he seemed pretty arogant and really
felt that he was in charge. Another chimed in that he liked to make sure
that all the guests had some opportunity to get the posed shots too. His only
request was that they not shoot until he'd gotten his shot. Then it was
open season for the guests. What he found was (and again, I'm paraphrasing
from memory) this part of his job went a lot easier because he was able
keep things moving and because he could spend a bit of time interacting with
the guests which might generate some business down the road.
Seems to me, the later would probably be the easier and less stressful
way to operate. Not to mention that the B&G would appreciate your
kindness and thoughtfulness toward their guests.
Ian
And in fact some of the shots that I got were as good as any wedding photos I have seen, its just that I wanted to tkae a few, when I wanted to. Wedding photography is work, hard work, and I wanted to have fun. I don't doubt that the photog earned her keep.
Crazily enough, she could probably sell ehr current gear and buy what I have- I don't have any L glass, after all. I guess she's just committed to film.
For wedding stuff, I think this is a guarantee of less and less employment.
Being a nice guy is always good for business...
I agree that cameras do not take pictures. Guns do not shoot people. Pots and pans do not make food. Software does not process images and computers do not create software. The list goes on and on.
Having said that...
There are certain limits what a tool can do. You can't possibly hit a target two miles aways with a handgun. You can't prepare pate de foie gras if all you have is a bonfire and a skillet. You'd be hard pressed to create PS CS2 in one lifetime if all you had was bare CPU codes and no OS or libraries to use. And you plain can not take a portrait of a person from 200 yards with a cellphone camera.
I'm not saying that it ain't possible to take a good picture with a bad camera or a bad lens (all those babylenses or holga lense piccies are bright examples of imaginative usage of a very bad lens). However, some - good and even excellent - pictures are taken with, uh, technically superior equipment and they would not be as good (or taken at all) otherwise. It would be a different picture. Better or worse - but different.
I highly doubt somebody with a disposable camera can take as good BIF as Harry does with his 600mm. I doubt even more that somebody with a cellphone can take such beautiful insects/flowers closeups as Skippy or Lord Vetinary do with their macro lenses and tubes. I totally can't believe that somebody even with a good camera in hands can snap as stunning wedding portrait as Shay does, simply because he would not have a few grand of lighting equipment sitting just outside the frame.
My point? Cameras don't take pictures, we all agree on this. But you''ll be fairly limited with what you can take if you don't have a good one...
PS
Of course I didn't mean "you" personally, it was just a figure of speech.
My rhetoric was mostly towards Ken's
Cheers!
My reply was a bit terse.
I guess what you're missing from the article is that YOU CAN do so much
with so little. You just need to do it differently. Good tools obviously make
the job easier but they can never make up for talent and creativity and a
thorough understanding of how the tool works.
So true. I always try and work with the B&G and guests. I will allow the guests to take pics most anytime and long as their don't interfere. If I have to ask them to move out of the pic they are interfering. The only other tiny issue is that sometimes with big groups or the wedding party there are people behind me taking pics. I will usually wait until all the guests, family are done taking pics so I can get everybody in the pic to look at me and the camera and not look at someone trying to find their camera for them or looking at their camera that someone is using.
I have yet to have a bad experience with a guest or family member taking pics. I want people to remember how cooperative and easy going I was to deal with. Trust me, I have had a few people that I knew who had to use another photographer because I was booked and they sure told me about their attitude or grumpiness. They didn't mention one thing about the quality of the work to me. I saw the images, good work. But the main thing the couple remembers about him was his personality and attitude.
Also about the original photographer that sounds like she was still using film, it maybe a lack of computer skills that keep this person from going digital. I worked with a photographer who did nice work, but in his older age wasn't continuing to learn photoshop on the computer and his whole attitude was starting to sour because his studio business was going away (he would say" its all due to the digital camera") and his attitude was starting to show to customers and potential customers. Poor guy still want use more than 1 layer when editing photos. I tried to show him but he won't have any of it. For most of his wedding stuff he uses a medium format film camera and some smaller wedding he shoots digital. He has a website but it was done by someone else and he has no clue how to update it. Most of the pics on the site, you can tell are dated. His show albums are also dated, he has been doing wedding for 20 years. He now has had to start working during the week as a handyman and carpenter. His business has dried up. Its sad, and I know every time he sees a digital camera that is better than his (cost a good bit of money to upgrade year after year, he is barely eating) in the hands of a guest (point and shooter skill wise, who probably gets some great candids) it reminds him that he no longer can support himself with photography.
But in the end the reason he is failing in business is he is not adapting to change!!! And his attitude and personality. He lives in the city but sometimes when he talks he sounds so hick. Hes a nice person, but sometimes I wonder how he ran a business for so long by himself.
Ok the above rambling probably isn't coherent, but oh well its late.
I was not missing that:-) And I agree that people often try to compensate with "tools" (cameras, cars, homes, clothes, etc.) what they lack in themselves.
However, if this [+++++] is a range of pictures one can possibly take with a cellphone, then [==============++++++===============] is a range of pictures one can take with a better camera.
Tools do not substitue for talent, that's for sure. However, reverse statement is also somewhat true.
Cheers!
I asked her how the other photog would feel about this arrangement, her response "I'm paying him to do one job and paying you to do another." I suggested that it might be the most advantageous thing to tell him that I'm a girlfriend with a camera and to just blow off my role when he's around. As an artist (from a family of artists) I know that any artists mood effects their work and if he's pissed off, her wedding photos could be hurt.
Hopefully he will be more emotionally balanced and professional than the woman at your friends wedding was.
Keep your fingers crossed for me!
Kat
Bill Brandt
I think you all stand a better chance of having a smooth day if the other photographer knows straight up what is going on ahead of time. Sneaking around behind his back (if you will pardon the phrase) to me just seems like a recipe for tension on the day.
I know I can spot the difference between someone taking happy snaps and someone who is "covering the day". I have come across it before. It's part of my job to observe, so I know just about everyone with a camera and what kind of photographer they are. I would know what you were up to within the first few minutes. So there is no hiding, honesty is the best policy here I think.
The sooner they know the better they will come to terms with the arrangement. At least that is the way I see it. You have to do what you know is best of course. But I do hope the best for all involved :-)
"Failure is feedback. And feedback is the breakfast of champions." - fortune cookie
I don't think you were out of line, but I -can- see why she would have reacted as she did. This has already been covered by previous posters: her business model, her style of selling, etc. None of that excuses her poor behavior and lack of professionalism.
She could have produced better images (for the B&G remember) by cooperating with you. Is it possible you take 'happy' pictures if you are in that state?
You're so damn right. While having a pretty good gear (Nikon D200, nikkor 17-55 f2.8, SB800, etc.) to cover my "casual" pro-stuffs, film pictures I've done with my Blad are the one I prefer ! Well, not always, but there's "something".
I won't come again on the issues raised by previous poster but, to my opinion, the first photog lady we talked about was not pissed because of the gear. She could easily buy a mid-range digital camera like a D200 or a 30D with optics.
As a young photographer, I sometimes shoot weddings, because I like it (...and because it pays, too
But being nice ALL the time... well, I think this is the whole point of being a pro.
I agree that these stories show a lot of arrogance from wedding photographers.
I'm just starting to get into the wedding photography business. I just graduated from a business-oriented trade school (Western Academy of Photography) where we were taught about wedding contracts, the ins and outs of running a business, etc.
My main philosophy is "whomever wants to shoot can shoot" during all the activities EXCEPT the group and romantic portraits (basically the posed portraits). I figure the more the merrier. It should really be up the the bride and groom about how much photography they want at their wedding.
I"m not at all threatened by other photographers. In fact, I really sincerely believe someone close to the couple can probably take better shots since they know who is who, the real emotions/stories behind things, etc. It can only work out better for the bride and groom -- and it's the bride and groom I'm trying to make happy.
The *only* thing I ask is that guests don't shoot over my shoulder while I'm taking posed portraits. What happens is everyone starts looking at granny adn not at me. I was warned by teachers that this would happen and it did and ruined two group portrait sessions at two different weddings.
The thing with the group portraits is that you take all this time to set up the poses, make sure everything's perfect, etc., it's extremely stressful directing things and it's awful when someone is shooting over your shoulder and everyone is looking every which way. It's true that eyes follow movement and any extra movement behind me is a distraction to the people being photographed.
That said, if a nice photographer came up to me and asked if they could take a shot of the group poses, I'd be happy to say yes. I'd ask that he/she wait till I'm done with my three or four pics of each grouping adn then I'll back away and he/she can shoot.
I do also appreciate it when other photogs come up and introduce themeselves. I'm genuinely interested in their interest, obviously since we're both photographers. And it's always great to chat it up with other photogs.
Also, I think it's worth saying that people should respect the fact that the wedding photographer is probably the busiest person at the wedding (next to the bride), isn't getting breaks to go pee, has to do a ton of work after the wedding, etc., and earns every penny he/she makes. I can spend sometimes 30 extra hours of computer work after a wedding, and I've been using PS for 10 years and used to work for software companies. It's the wedding photog's business, after all. I'm sure office workers would get kind of testy it if someone came into their workplace and started to type into their keyboard when they were away from their desk.
Also, when it comes to the really creative posed romantic portraits this can be the creative hallmark of the photographer's portfolio -- something the photog can use to sell his/her work down the line. It would be awful to think someone else stole the shot over the photog's shoulder when it was the photog who set the whole thing up. Always respect the photographer and I'm sure the same respect will come back to you.
That said, the photog stories in these threads sound dreadful and definitely give a bad name to wedding photography. It's a shame weddings are such stressful things.
Cheers!
Christina
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