?Lighting outdoor group portrait? (10 people)

photobug · July 17, 2006

[FONT=Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif]In a couple of weeks, I'm tasked with taking a family portrait. Not just any portrait, but since my father is 80 and lives 2000 miles away, and my sister & her family live 5000 miles away, we never know but this "could" be the last chance ever for a portrait of my parents & all their progeny. ...So the onus is on me to really "get it right".

I plan on shooting it in our back yard, with landscaping/trees for a background, with the mid-evening light filtered through the trees (no direct overhead light). My first question is, for a group of 10 people, probably arranged in a couple of rows, what type of lighting setup will I need for nice even frontal group-portrait lighting? I currently have a 580EX Speedlite, a 420EX Canon Speedlite, Sto-Fen OmniBounce diffusers for both, a 2' dedicated flash shoe extension cord, and a couple of extra lightweight tripods that I can use as 5-1/2' flash stands. I don't yet have umbrellas, tall flash stands, or studio flash(es).

The options I see are:
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[FONT=Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif]Use the existing flashes, with the 420EX on a stand, probably with an umbrella. I'd have to put the 580EX on or near the camera since it is the only wireless flash "master" unit.

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[FONT=Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif]Use the existing flashes, with the 420EX on a stand + umbrella. Buy an ST-E2 infrared remote transmitter or a second 580EX so I can run both flashes off-camera, on stands, probably with umbrellas.

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[FONT=Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif]Buy one or two studio-type flashes (perhaps this one or this one?) with stands & umbrellas, and fire them as slaves from an on-camera flash (dialed down to low power, I'm guessing). (if I bought studio strobes I could use them occasionally for other shots, but if I don't need them for this shot I'll delay buying them until another time.)
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[FONT=Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif]Can anyone comment on a recommended method to light this shot? #1? #2? #3? Or am I off-track and need to do something different?

Second question -- if I use umbrellas, how large would they need to be to adequately light a group like this?

Third question, indirectly related to the above (I also posted this question in the Gear forum) -- I understand flash guide numbers, but am not sure how to compare guide numbers between my Speedlites and the studio strobe options, since the studio strobes don't specify at what angle of light coverage their light output was tested. Without that, all comparisons between Speedlites and studio strobes seem to be totally "apples and oranges". Anyone have experience with studio strobes and can tell me how to compare their light output with that of Speedlites? Even a rough rule-of-thumb would be helpful.

thanks for any & all advice!
= Dave [/FONT]

Shay Stephens · July 17, 2006

Think simple!
Just because you have the lights, doesn't mean you have to use them

Will the group be in open shade? If so, why do you need flash? What problem are you trying to solve by using the flash?

If you need flash for something, I would tend to try using just a single flash to start with, and you are going to need to get it higher than 5.5 feet too. 8 to 10 feet (depending on distance) would be better so that shadows point down instead of travelling parallel to the ground or worse. You don't want one persons head casting a big shadow on another.

pathfinder · July 17, 2006

Photobug,

I would be very careful using light passing through trees. If you get dappled shadows from the leaves on people's faces it will not be pleasing at all and is all but impossible to fix after the fact in Photoshop. I speak from experience.

Use shade or not, but be very observant about shadows from light passing through trees.

It sounds like it is going to be fairly dark outside if it is late in the evening near sundown. A 580ex and a 420ex should be able to handle this group nicely. As Shay said, make sure they are high enough that they do not cast shadows from one person's face to individual next to them. Make a trial run of a few frames with your spouse a few days ahead of time so you KNOW where you want the lights to be and what the exposure settings to be.

AC powered studio strobes are much more powerful than a 580ex, but they are useually used a larger distance from the subjects also.

ziggy53 · July 17, 2006

photobug wrote:

[FONT=Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif]... my father is 80 and lives 2000 miles away, and my sister & her family live 5000 miles away, we never know but this "could" be the last chance ever for a portrait of my parents & all their progeny. ...So the onus is on me to really "get it right".
...[/FONT][FONT=Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif]= Dave [/FONT]

Dave,

Considering what is at stake, I really think this is one of those times when you, as in the whole family, really "need" to get a professional to do the family portrait.

This is not the best opportunity to learn that bitter lesson of "penny saved and pound foolish".

There is no practical way for you to set up the shot and also appear in the shot. My family used to do stuff like that, and it was never pleasant or practical.

If there are young children involved, timing is everything. It takes a real live person to know when to capture the right moment. A self timer just won't do it.

An experienced wedding photographer should have all that is needed for the shot, plus the experience and photographic proof of their capabilities.

You only have two weeks to prepare, and I really wouldn't expect you to achieve the same results as somone who has years of experience with the situation and the equipment. That wouldn't be a fair expectation of anyone.

I know that's not the advice you were looking for. I know you want to do what you can for the family, and that's admirable. I just can't advise you to do something that asks this much.

Best,

ziggy53

pathfinder · July 17, 2006

Ziggy's suggestion is excellent. Takes the responsibility off your shoulders also:):

photobug · July 18, 2006

Just because you have the lights, doesn't mean you have to use them

Good point. It seems that whenever I don't use them, I end up with uneven or harsh (high-contrast) lighting. Plus there will be a bit of backlighting in this situation, so I expect to need supplementary light to compensate for that.

Will the group be in open shade? If so, why do you need flash? What problem are you trying to solve by using the flash?

I guess I'm going for some degree of lighting control here, and I don't have much control over Mother Nature's lighting (except to wait until we're out of high-contrast direct sunlight). The group won't exactly be in open shade, in that there will be nothing "above" them to shade them from the sun. The sun by then will be getting lower in the sky, sidelighting or slightly backlighting the subjects -- but there will be (pine) trees behind them (between them and the sun).

If you need flash for something, I would tend to try using just a single flash to start with

OK, but I'll have to test it all ahead of time.

... and you are going to need to get it higher than 5.5 feet too. 8 to 10 feet (depending on distance) would be better so that shadows point down instead of travelling parallel to the ground or worse. You don't want one person's head casting a big shadow on another.

OK, that tells me that at the very least, I need a much taller light stand.

photobug · July 18, 2006

I would be very careful using light passing through trees. If you get dappled shadows from the leaves on people's faces it will not be pleasing at all and is all but impossible to fix after the fact in Photoshop. I speak from experience.

Absolutely I want to avoid that. In this case, the trees are behind the subjects, not above them, so any "dappled" sunlight passing through the pine trees will spill on their backs and not affect the shot. (The sun will be far enough off to the side that it won't cause lens flare, even if the trees weren't present) I've now added a photo to this posting of the approx area where the group may be posed, taken at about the same time of day (6:30pm) -- note light filtering through the trees from the left, from slightly behind the trees

It sounds like it is going to be fairly dark outside if it is late in the evening near sundown.

About 2 hours before sunset, so not really dark -- but the sun won't be anywhere near "overhead", either. It will still be just above the low Santa Cruz mountains out here ;-).

A 580ex and a 420ex should be able to handle this group nicely. As Shay said, make sure they are high enough that they do not cast shadows from one person's face to individual next to them. Make a trial run of a few frames with your spouse a few days ahead of time so you KNOW where you want the lights to be and what the exposure settings to be.

OK, thanks, will do.

AC powered studio strobes are much more powerful than a 580ex, but they are usually used a larger distance from the subjects also.

Thanks for confirming this -- that's what I would expect, but I didn't want to take the risk of assuming that.

photobug · July 18, 2006

Ziggy's suggestion is excellent. Takes the responsibility off your shoulders also:):

I guess I overplayed the "onus on me" part a little much ... yes, we need to get a reasonable photo, and I have no doubt at all that I can do that. It doesn't "have" to be pro-quality -- it's my own pride that wants to make it as good as I can.

I think the really, really important thing is going to be setting this up ahead of time and run some tests until I'm satisfied.

photobug · July 18, 2006

There is no practical way for you to set up the shot and also appear in the shot.

I have a wireless RF remote, so that should handle most of that problem. I agree that self-timers are lousy for "putting yourself in the shot".

Another option is that my father-in-law (who will not be in the photo) may be present. So perhaps I could have him watch everyone and trip a (wired) remote shutter release at the camera. He won't have as good an eye for expressions as a pro, but he used to be a pretty serious amateur photographer so might time it as well as I could.

If there are young children involved, timing is everything. It takes a real live person to know when to capture the right moment.

You have a very good point, Ziggy. The kids involved range from 5 to 16 so yes, this could be an issue. We'll have to take as many shots as the younger kids can handle (2? 5? 6? shots), but yes, it would be even better to have someone by the camera judge when to trip the shutter.

You only have two weeks to prepare, and I really wouldn't expect you to achieve the same results as somone who has years of experience with the situation and the equipment.

I wouldn't expect that, either. Your advice is excellent and this is undoubtedly a case where we would get what we pay for (i.e. a pro would clearly add value, on multiple levels). I'm just trying to get the best results I can, given the financial constraints we have to work with. All the advice here is very helpful.

ziggy53 · July 18, 2006

Dave,

I found this reply from Chuck Gardner on DPReview. (I don't always agree with him, but in this case I think he's giving great advice.)

"For outdoor fill flash which doesn't look artificial the best tools are a flash unit with HS flash capablility, camera bracket and a reflection diffuser.
HS flash allows you to use the camera in Av mode, controlling DOF for creative effect without the need to worry about the x-sync shutter speed limit in brightly lit areas. In Av mode the camera will adapt the overall ambient exposure to changing lighting conditions via shutter speed, but will not affect the flash component. You can override the default ambient exposure with -/+ EV control the amount of fill with FEC.
A camera bracket which keeps the flash head 12 or more inches above the lens in landscape and portrait mode will give the fill a slight downward angle which will hide any shadows behind the subjects. This is more important indoors where the flash provides all the light, but it also helps reduce head-on glare you get outdoors when the flash is on the camera or the built-in flash is used in portrait mode.
There are no ceilings outdoors so LightSphere and StoFen style diffusers are not effective. A mini softbox or reflection style diffuser which increases the apparent size of the light source are much more effective, but at distances past about 10 feet direct flash on a bracket works just as well. You can make a very effective reflection diffuser in about 30 min from any piece of white cardboard you can find. See http://super.nova.org/DPR/DIY01 for a illustrated construction guide.
As for the flash, if you plan to get a second flash at some point a 580ex would be an ideal choice as it will serve as the master unit for a second 580ex in slave mode, or a 430ex in slave mode. The 430ex can also be used as single flash, but not as a master unit in a mulitple flash set-up. Sigma 500 DG or 500 super are lower cost alternatives to the Canons.
CG "

ziggy53 · July 18, 2006

BTW, here is a similar thread from last year, although Mongrel wasn't part of the family.

http://www.dgrin.com/showthread.php?t=13671

ziggy53

photobug · July 18, 2006

ziggy53 wrote:

I found this reply from Chuck Gardner on DPReview. (I don't always agree with him, but in this case I think he's giving great advice.)

"For outdoor fill flash which doesn't look artificial the best tools are a flash unit with HS flash capablility, camera bracket and a reflection diffuser
<etc>
There are no ceilings outdoors so LightSphere and StoFen style diffusers are not effective. A mini softbox or reflection style diffuser which increases the apparent size of the light source are much more effective, but at distances past about 10 feet direct flash on a bracket works just as well.
You can make a very effective reflection diffuser in about 30 min from any piece of white cardboard you can find. See http://super.nova.org/DPR/DIY01 for a illustrated construction guide.
As for the flash, if you plan to get a second flash at some point a 580ex would be an ideal choice as it will serve as the master unit for a second 580ex in slave mode, or a 430ex in slave mode. The 430ex can also be used as single flash, but not as a master unit in a mulitple flash set-up.
CG "

This is good stuff; very helpful.

Ziggy, I really appreciate the time & effort you've put into all your responses to my question(s)!

If we ever meet up, I definitely owe you lunch!

"Sigma 500 DG or 500 super are lower cost alternatives to the Canons."

I'd expect them to work as dedicated flashes on the Canon, but [rhetorical question!] are they actually fully-compatible (and capable) as masters or slaves in the Canon wireless system? (I guess I could always use the 580ex as a master, so anything else I got would only have to function correctly in slave mode.) ... this question doesn't have to be answered in this forum; I can research this on my own.

photobug · July 18, 2006

BTW, here is a similar thread from last year, although Mongrel wasn't part of the family.
http://www.dgrin.com/showthread.php?t=13671

Thanks yet AGAIN. Wow, that thread is an extremely similar situation, down to the equipment list (other than in my case, I also need to be in the photo); I'm going to print out the whole thread and read it over lunch today.

= Dave

ziggy53 · July 18, 2006

photobug wrote:

... I'd expect them to work as dedicated flashes on the Canon, but [rhetorical question!] are they actually fully-compatible (and capable) as masters or slaves in the Canon wireless system? (I guess I could always use the 580ex as a master, so anything else I got would only have to function correctly in slave mode.) ...

Dave,

I just have the one Sigma 500 DG Super, but if I were to buy another flash for automated ratio lighting, master/slave situation, I would go for the Sigma again.

The Canon 580EX has a little more power and maybe better recycle speed, but the power of the Sigma is about the same as the Canon 550EX, which is also a very good flash, with most of the feature set of the 580EX. Overall, I think the Sigma is just a better value. I do find that I have to adjust the FEC sometimes, but it's just a matter of some button pushing, and not too much at that.

The Canons are simpler to operate, but I don't mind the Sigma controls. (... and I have a really bad memory too. In fact, I can't remember that last time I ... well, anything!)

A great review of the Sigma flash is here:
http://photonotes.org/reviews/sigma-ef-500-super/

As far as compatability, I don't have a first-hand experience, but I found some users on the Canon forum of "photography-on-the.net".

"If you have any thoughts of doing a dual or multi off shoe wireless flash set up down the road,. Grab the Sigma first. If it is not everything you ever wanted in a flash,. then it becomes your off camera slave for the new 580EX you get down the road."

"I have a sigma 500 super and a 420EX.

the sigma will indeed fire as master and trigger the 420EX. most of the time it works fine, occasionally the 420 fires at full power and blows out the image. I just go thru the setup procedure again and it generally works, so I've always assumed it's my error. PaceAce has informed me he thinks that problem is in the sigma. It's only an occasional glitch, and I'm overall happy with the combo.

I use the two-flash setup for macros and still life (pottery). my flash bracket (home modified) holds one flash above and the right and the other flash to the left, up near the front of the lens. I sometimes do portraits with the sigma bounced off the ceiling and the 420EX behind the subject pointed at the backgound. I use groups & ratios."

"I have my own Sigma on my 1v and 3, and I have 550ex and Sigma on work 1d and 1dmkII. There's not so much difference between those two but there are few pluses and minuses for each of those two flashes.
Sigma charges about 20 to 30% faster then Canon (with 580 this is suppose to be different, but I'm still waiting to get 580), which is quite important for me, since I'm shooting sport. But on other side Sigma doesn't have plug for external batteries and with Quantum I can get 550ex to charge helluwa lot faster then any Sigma. Only other thing (except plug for external batteries) which bothers me with Sigma is that FP mode turns off automatically when time goes under x-synch. With Canon FP mode stays on all the time. It depends on your stile of shoting but for me it's not really big deal since I'm shoting in manual. Other things which might be important for someone are that Sigma's af assyst light supports only center AF point while 550ex supports all 45 af points. But on other side, you can use Sigma as optical or wireless slave while Canon can be only wireless slave.
And yes both flashes are made like **** (580 is suppose to be better in this too). When you hold EOS 1 in your hand it's made like tank, while holding 550ex or 500super in your hand it makes you wonder how fast it will break. But on other side it still didn't break for me (if I don't count endless number of hotshoes which I broke on both flashes), even if I'm not really gentle with them

"

"I have two Sigma 500's and use the wireless multiple flash feature often.

Recently added the Sigma macro ring flash to my collection and although I bought it mainly for the designed purpose, it is capable of triggering the other two units, so I will experiment with 3 flash set ups.

Quality is okay, certainly relative to price when you factor in how much more the Canon products cost. Results are great.

Either will do the job, but I don't believe that there is a functional or signifcant build difference, and unless you plan to add external battery power, the Sigma is fine.__________________
Cheers,

Bruce Watson"

But then I read,

"This is my first post here. You folks have a fine, highly informative board here and I thank you for letting me be a part of it. Have any of you been able to get the Sigma to work with wireless E-TTL ratios? The Sigma does just fine as an on-camera E-TTL flash, but I've tried all combos of Sigma EF-500 Supers and Canon 580EXs and as soon as you put a Sigma in the mix with ratios on wireless E-TTL, instant blowout of the photo. I have a Canon 1D MkII and recently purchased 3 Canon 580EXs, and they're plug and play for wireless E-TTL, ratios and all. I have 3 Sigmas and couldn't get them to do ratios like that either. Even tried the Sigmas with the ST-E2 to no avail. I've been investigating this subject for about a year and have yet to hear of a Sigma wireless E-TTL ratios success story. It'd be really cool if somebody could prove me wrong, I'd love to keep 2 Sigmas and return two of the 580's, just cuz of the difference in price, but as it stands now, the two Sigmas are headed to ebay soon and I'll use 580EX flashes. I'll offer myself up for any Sigma/Canon experiments anyone wants to perform as well.
Thanks!
-Shortbus"

"Yes, I tried every 2 and 3 unit combination of Sigma Master/Slave and Canon Master/Slave combo, including Master Flash off and on. Again, the only time Wireless E-TTL would work was when I didn't do ratios. They worked as wireless E-TTL slaves just fine as long as there wasn't a ratio involved (ie Master and slave as ID 1.) It'd work okay most of the time with slave ID's as long as I left the ratio 1:1, but any variance was very unpredictable. Even when it did "work" (ie not overexposting to total whiteout) adjusting the ratios made no difference in exposure. I'd do massive FEC (-3) and underexposing on the camera in manual to try and get something besides white and it'd sometimes give a picture, but there'd be no ratios present, ie it was flat lighting. Using Canons ratios with 3 580's is exactly like it should be. I've been playing with those Sigmas for a very long time. They work fine as on camera E-TTL's, wireless E-TTL slaves (no ratios, ie all ID's set to 1), and as optical slaves, but I wanted ratios in the form of E-TTL because I have three teenagers and they scatter like cockroaches when they see the "poppa-razzi" coming...lol. Anyways, if anybody's got something they'd like me to try, or a suggestion about making it work, I'd love to hear it. A lot of people struggle with whether or not to buy the Sigma or the Canon and it's my belief that for the price the Sigma's functionally equivalent to the Canon on E-TTL except for ratios. The menus on the Sigma, once you've used them a few times, are easily navigated. The build quality's a little less sturdy on the Sigma, but I'll tell ya one thing, whoever designed the battery door on the 580 should be flogged...lol. I'm just thankful they didn't design the zipper's all I got to say...
Have a great day!
-ShortBus
"

ziggy53

mo money · August 13, 2008

On another subject .. Canon 40d & 580 EX II
Is it possible for the canon 40d to trigger a off camera 580 EX II ?
I shoot with fellow photographers who own Nikon D200 and are always
quick to show how quickly they can use a off camera flash trigger by
the Nikon built in flash... As you know always in competeion two Nikons vs one canon,

pathfinder · August 13, 2008

A 40D can trigger an off camera 580ex with a Canon wireless trigger - the ST-E2, but the 40D cannot do this alone, by itself.

Kudos to Nikon for their built in wireless flash control ability!

mo money · August 13, 2008

On another subject .. Canon 40d & 580 EX II
Thanks for the reply

photobug · August 13, 2008

pathfinder wrote:

A 40D can trigger an off camera 580ex with a Canon wireless trigger - the ST-E2, but the 40D cannot do this alone, by itself.

Quite right. Another option is to use one 580ex on-camera triggering a second 580ex off-camera (but if you only need one flash, then the ST-E2 option is something like half the cost of another 580ex). Or you can use your 580ex as the master, triggering an off-camera 420ex, 430ex, 550ex, etc (with or without the on-camera 580ex flash firing).

Unfortunately, Canon (unlike Nikon) hasn't yet included the ability for its unaided camera bodies to control remote Canon flashes. I would love to see Canon (a) include a pop-up flash on all its camera bodies (even its $7999 bodies) and (b) allow pop-up flashes to function as wireless TTL masters for its off-camera flashes. But Canon hasn't seen fit to do either, yet.

pathfinder · August 16, 2008

I wish Canon would add wireless control to its bodies also

?Lighting outdoor group portrait? (10 people)

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