Can keywords be made invisible to users/customers/viewers?

merlin50 · July 24, 2006

Except of course to the site owner? Just the first of what I assume will be many Newbie questions.

Thanks,

Dave

Mike Lane · July 24, 2006

merlin50 wrote:

Except of course to the site owner? Just the first of what I assume will be many Newbie questions.

Thanks,

Dave

If you mean the keyword box on the homepage then simply click hide in the upper right of the box when you're logged in.

merlin50 · July 24, 2006

Mike Lane wrote:

If you mean the keyword box on the homepage then simply click hide in the upper right of the box when you're logged in.

Doh!!!!!!

Thanks Mike!

Dave

papajay · July 24, 2006

Keywords made invisible?...Yes, and NO!!

merlin50 wrote:

Except of course to the site owner? Just the first of what I assume will be many Newbie questions.

Thanks,

Dave

Dave: as I found out the hard way, yes you can make your keywords "invisible" to customers, etc. But making them inaccessible is something different, and you should at least be "aware" of it (I was not until another smugmugger pointed it out....see the thread titled Keywording with Privacy for Dummies, reply 6 or 7, I believe!!!...a bit of a shock to find out how easy it is for nearly ANYONE to access your keywords without your knowledge, let alone permission).

merlin50 · July 25, 2006

Papajay,

Thanks for that added info. That's not a good thing to hear! How in the world can that happen? Checking it out now.

Dave

papajay · July 25, 2006

Keyword "Access" clarification.

merlin50 wrote:

Papajay,

Thanks for that added info. That's not a good thing to hear! How in the world can that happen? Checking it out now.

Dave

Hi Dave:

Just to clarify...I should have probably used a word other than "access" in my last post. It suggests the ability to "edit" (as in add, delete, modify), which, thankfully, is NOT the case.

Yes, you can "hide" your keywords from others by not displaying them on your homepage and picture details.

But anyone adding "/keyword" to your home page URL will instantly make your complete keyword list a voyeuristic dream come true...how comforting is that?

Andy · July 25, 2006

papajay wrote:

Hi Dave:

Just to clarify...I should have probably used a word other than "access" in my last post. It suggests the ability to "edit" (as in add, delete, modify), which, thankfully, is NOT the case.

Yes, you can "hide" your keywords from others by not displaying them on your homepage and picture details.

But anyone adding "/keyword" to your home page URL will instantly make your complete keyword list a voyeuristic dream come true...how comforting is that?

Hi Papajay,

our very first words in our help section on keywords are "will flaunt them..."
http://www.smugmug.com/help/keywords-tags

Papaja, we love your enthusiasm and we know you love SmugMug - a great combination!

I and the team are aware of your thoughts and desires about keywords - and we discuss it often - but I will say that your postings are almost sounding like we are doing something evil - which we are not. We know you are not happy with keywords, and your private galleries, and that you want the ability to use keywords with private galleries. Onethumb's made several postings on the subject and I'm sure we'll have something more to say at some point.

Thanks!

papajay · July 25, 2006

Andy wrote:

Hi Papajay,

Papaja, we love your enthusiasm and we know you love SmugMug - a great combination!

I and the team are aware of your thoughts and desires about keywords - and we discuss it often - but I will say that your postings are almost sounding like we are doing something evil - which we are not. We know you are not happy with keywords, and your private galleries, and that you want the ability to use keywords with private galleries. Onethumb's made several postings on the subject and I'm sure we'll have something more to say at some point.

Thanks!

Andy: You are supposed to be on VACATION!! Bet you may even think that's why I've been busy posting. First..I do love Smugmug. Second...I do not, in any way, think Smugmug is doing anything evil. Third...but I continue to be concerned that evil-minded web-lurkers (hopefully none that are also Smugmug users) can do real harm to innocent Smugmug users and put Smugmug in an unenviable position at the same time.

I'll tone down the rhetoric...I felt your current post "came from the heart" instead of the Smugmug Support Policy Manual, and for the first time on this topic I feel Smugmug actually "gets it" (not entirely "fair", as I'm pretty sure you "got it" all along...it just didn't feel like it to me as a frustrated/concerned user).

Slight correction...I don't use "private" galleries (since I do use keywords). And I would actually prefer to keep my galleries semi-"public" (so I don't have to provide passwords to family and friends). If I could just keep prying eyes from "seeing" my keywords via "the back door", I'd be a pretty happy camper. Cheers.

Mike Lane · July 25, 2006

papajay wrote:

Third...but I continue to be concerned that evil-minded web-lurkers (hopefully none that are also Smugmug users) can do real harm to innocent Smugmug users and put Smugmug in an unenviable position at the same time.

Just out of curiosity, maybe I'm just missing something obvious here but how exactly can an "evil-minded web-lurker" do real harm to anyone because photos are tagged with keywords? Moreover, what unenviable position would smugmug potentially be in?

Dna · July 26, 2006

papajay wrote:

But anyone adding "/keyword" to your home page URL will instantly make your complete keyword list a voyeuristic dream come true...how comforting is that?

1. Keywords don't work in password protected galleries. This is the behaviour that I want and expect.
2. Keywords work in public galleries. This is good.
3. I don't want keywords leading customers to a password protected gallery, that will frustrated them and they will go elsewhere.
4. Smugsearch finds the keywords in the public galleries only on my site. This is good.

I have minors on my site and they are in passworded galleries, there is enough logic in the filing system that they can find where they are with 4 clicks.

I understand the need to find multiple keywords across your site but can't see how that can be done without compromising the security of password protected galleries.

Summary: Keywords work well and as I expected. If you don't want a gallery to be searchable then password it.

Dna

papajay · July 26, 2006

Mike Lane wrote:

Just out of curiosity, maybe I'm just missing something obvious here but how exactly can an "evil-minded web-lurker" do real harm to anyone because photos are tagged with keywords? Moreover, what unenviable position would smugmug potentially be in?

Hi Mike:
With over 4000 posts to your credit, you are obviously a regular contributor to this and other forums...with that degree of dedication, I doubt you miss much ("obvious" or otherwise)!

I've been on somewhat of a rant, I'll admit...and having been "called" on it, just committed to Andy in my last post that I would tone it down. Look, I'm just a grandfather (not a professional photographer, like dna, who legitimately views keywording differently than I).

So maybe it's a bit paranoid, but I believe (as does dmc) the scary stuff about perverts (the "evil-minded web-lurkers") misuse of the Internet warrants caution and concern for those of us who see keywords like "pool" or "bikini" as just good descriptors. As dmc said in another post, perverts see words like that much differently than "normal" people.

That's where I see the potential for "harm". And if harm were to occur, the "unenviable position" Smugmug might face could be in the form of a lawsuit, for example (and NO!, I'm not threatening to file one). An extreme view?...maybe, but not all that extreme. It's just my opinion...I think my point/position has been made. There are differences of opinion, and that's fine, as long as there's dialogue that eventually leads in a positive direction.

Andy · July 26, 2006

papajay wrote:

and that's fine, as long as there's dialogue that eventually leads in a positive direction.

and we crave these discussions. Don't apologize for being passionate - ever - it's an admirable quality:D

papajay · July 26, 2006

Andy wrote:

and we crave these discussions. Don't apologize for being passionate - ever - it's an admirable quality:D

Thanks Andy...great "vacation" you're taking!

Mike Lane · July 26, 2006

papajay wrote:

Hi Mike:
With over 4000 posts to your credit, you are obviously a regular contributor to this and other forums...with that degree of dedication, I doubt you miss much ("obvious" or otherwise)!

I've been on somewhat of a rant, I'll admit...and having been "called" on it, just committed to Andy in my last post that I would tone it down. Look, I'm just a grandfather (not a professional photographer, like dna, who legitimately views keywording differently than I).

So maybe it's a bit paranoid, but I believe (as does dmc) the scary stuff about perverts (the "evil-minded web-lurkers") misuse of the Internet warrants caution and concern for those of us who see keywords like "pool" or "bikini" as just good descriptors. As dmc said in another post, perverts see words like that much differently than "normal" people.

That's where I see the potential for "harm". And if harm were to occur, the "unenviable position" Smugmug might face could be in the form of a lawsuit, for example (and NO!, I'm not threatening to file one). An extreme view?...maybe, but not all that extreme. It's just my opinion...I think my point/position has been made. There are differences of opinion, and that's fine, as long as there's dialogue that eventually leads in a positive direction.

I'm just trying to understand is all. There wasn't anything implied in my questions at all. But I'm still at a loss to understand. It's not so much the keywords that are a problem or even the image to which they are connected. The potential problem (if I understand your explanation) is what people would do with those pictures. Maybe that should be in the form of a question. What harm could these roving bands of perverts do exactly? More interestingly, on what grounds could this hypothetical lawsuit brought up by a hypothetical person (because of a hypothetical pervert) be brought up on?

Plaintiff: Your honor, we have good solid evidence that this pervert was doing you know what to pictures of my granddaughter swimming at the local pool. Moreover, we are also alledging that Smugmug Inc. is complicit in this act of grossness because they built a system which facilitates the finding of said visual stimuli.

Judge: Uh. What? Are you serious?

Mike Lane · July 26, 2006

Okay so I wanted to test something else out. I didn't know if the smugmug search would find images in some other way than keywords. So I put the following in the image caption for a picture that was not tagged with keywords on one of my sites:

This image has no keywords. Balderdash!

Then I went to my homepage (http://mikelane2.smugmug.com/) and searched the word Balderdash. It found exactly one photo, can you guess which one? Feel free to try that same search on my site.

What's more, I'll bet you that google will crawl it and I'll be able to find it in a google search eventually. I suppose my point is, if you've got no keywords but an image caption of this:

Here's a picture of my little granddaughter swimming at the pool. Isn't her bikini cute?

You'll have the same problems as if you keyworded the photo thusly:

child; granddaughter; swimming; pool; bikini; cute

It seems that the hypothetical perverts can get to pictures in a lot of ways. If that's something you're concerned about (and it is admittedly icky) then I would say password protect those galleries.

papajay · July 27, 2006

Mike Lane wrote:

I'm just trying to understand is all. ... What harm could these roving bands of perverts do exactly? More interestingly, on what grounds could this hypothetical lawsuit brought up by a hypothetical person (because of a hypothetical pervert) be brought up on?

Plaintiff: Your honor, we have good solid evidence that this pervert was doing you know what to pictures of my granddaughter swimming at the local pool. Moreover, we are also alledging that Smugmug Inc. is complicit in this act of grossness because they built a system which facilitates the finding of said visual stimuli.

Judge: Uh. What? Are you serious?

Hypothetical, yes...and thank goodness! Serious?...yeah, that too...hypothetically, at least.

So here's a scenario:
Instead of the "roving bands of [hypothetical] perverts" let's focus on just one who searches an otherwise innocuous keyword like "pool" and manages to pull up a picture on somebody's Smugmug site of his 5 year old granddaughter taking a swim. Our hypothetical pervert trolls around other images in the same Smugmug gallery/site and notices a picture of the kid's grammar school, which the perv recognizes immediately as being in the same neighborhood he lives in.

This hypothetical story could take any of several "bad-ending" paths from here. And whether or not our hypothetical perv "does time", the parents and grandparents would almost certainly (hypothetically, of course) file a law suit.

They might not win in court, but I don't think the judge would doubt their seriousness.

Regrettably, I'm coming to the conclusion, as you suggest in another post, that I should password protect my site/galleries. But the most-compelling feature that drew me to Smugmug in the first place (keyword functionality within my own site) is useless the minute I "protect" it with a password. And the simple use of captions, it turns out, exposes my "protected" images anyway, albeit on a somewhat limited basis.

Now I'm on the horns of a dillema...it's no longer hypothetical, and that's unfortunate because, despite it all, I still think Smugmug is a great site.

Can keywords be made invisible to users/customers/viewers?

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