I would think the main difference between DIY and Off The Shelf is the
quality of the tubes. Otherwise, I would imagine you could build most of
the rest of the stuff yourself. Yeah?
Maybe but until i could identify the tube as the one they use in the space shuttle dunny ... its a mute point. You wont believe how many times i have come across different professional fields using & selling expensive equipment that the elctrical industry considers common place & thus i see ridiculously inflated prices for stuff. Not saying this is that sort of case...but this type of situation is seriously worth looking into for an amature.
We just need some anal obssesive compulsive computer boffin to start the hunt
I was anxiously waiting for your results and I'm very glad that everything went fine and you found an opportunity to do this, too!
That amount of gear I surely impressive.
I also found it interesting that, at least looking at your shots, some of his big lights, like these:
look totally DYI and, as such, may not cost me an arm and a leg to make :-)
Anyways - thanks again for the post!
Nik: I assure you those lamps are anything but DYI. Those are high color rendering flourescents able to be controlled to deliver a range of kelvin through a seriously complicated light meter control box. I think the units cost somewhere around $2000 and bulbs something like $100 apiece.
All of the gear these guys carried in and used quite effectively supports the old adage; "the difference between men and boys, is the price of their toys"
Wow, what a production! That was really interesting to see/read. Too bad about not being able to use your flash... definitely better to not annoy the Pro.
Thanks for the look-in!
I think the biggest thing you should take away from this is to use Canon equipment.
oops; i missed a whole page of lamp discussion before repsonding to Nik. I'm not certain of the details of these HCRF fixtures.
I deal with many types of lighting for store design and I'm aware of the various flouro bulbs, including daylight, available. I agree with Gus that many can be suckered into paying a high price for something in one industry that can be had for less with a little "shopping around" but I think this system falls into a very different category. Even if the lamps are similar to "off the shelf" (but they didn't appear to be) it's really the electronics of the overall system that would jack the cost up.
He was able to turn dark shadowy spaces into brilliant spaces and with almost no shadows or hot spots. And he used only two of the HCRF units and two traditional canopys.
Believe me, for what I'm paying this guy for this shoot, he wouldn't get away with excusing bad pictures due to poor light.
Nik: I assure you those lamps are anything but DYI. Those are high color rendering flourescents able to be controlled to deliver a range of kelvin through a seriously complicated light meter control box. I think the units cost somewhere around $2000 and bulbs something like $100 apiece.
All of the gear these guys carried in and used quite effectively supports the old adage; "the difference between men and boys, is the price of their toys"
thanks for looking.
I guess I got too excited too early :-)
{crawling back under the rock}
oops; i missed a whole page of lamp discussion before repsonding to Nik. I'm not certain of the details of these HCRF fixtures.
I deal with many types of lighting for store design and I'm aware of the various flouro bulbs, including daylight, available. I agree with Gus that many can be suckered into paying a high price for something in one industry that can be had for less with a little "shopping around" but I think this system falls into a very different category. Even if the lamps are similar to "off the shelf" (but they didn't appear to be) it's really the electronics of the overall system that would jack the cost up.
He was able to turn dark shadowy spaces into brilliant spaces and with almost no shadows or hot spots. And he used only two of the HCRF units and two traditional canopys.
Believe me, for what I'm paying this guy for this shoot, he wouldn't get away with excusing bad pictures due to poor light.
... and I missed all the fun of this discussion!
Basically, what distinguishes these "flo" units is summed in three terms; two relate to the word "continuous" and then variability in output.
1) The first continuous has to do with how fluorescent bulbs work. Fluorescent units excite phosphors applied to the inside surface of a hollow glass tube (usually). The mixture of phosphors used for the coating determines the color temperature of the unit. Some of the phosphors are very expensive, so they are used in very limited quantities in consumer units because of their cost.
In these professional lighting units, they are used in quantities required to balance the light as closely as possible to daylight, almost regardless of cost. (No fluorescent technology is truly continuous in that there are a series of "spikes" in their color spectrum that are not present in true continuous light sources like the Sun.) The tubes may also be coated to eliminate UV light.
2) The second continuous has to do with time intervals. All fluorescent lights "flicker". It is the nature of the technology.
In the old days of electric ballasts, the flicker equaled the electrical line frequency, 60 Hz in the USA. The rate was so slow, many people could get headaches and eyestrain from the beat frequency.
Modern "electronic" ballasts can beat at a much faster rate, but many consumer ballasts are still too slow for photographic use at faster shutter speeds, especially with focal-plane shutters. You may get "banding" across the image as the shutter slit moves across the image plane and the light flickers or "strobes". These professional units are designed with extremely high-speed ballasts to avoid the problem with banding. (22KHz)
3) The third thing that these lights do is vary their output. Conventional ballasts do not allow variable output. You cannot use a conventional "dimmer" switch to do the job.
You can "bank" fixtures to turn individual bulbs on an off, but that's about it for conventional units. (You can also "shutter" the units, basically like mini blinds, which truly does work pretty well, although the light angle can change.)
BTW, HMI lighting is often the other choice for "continuous" lighting, but I didn't notice it used here.
Angelo....a really great post ......that set of Flouro lites looks like what used to be called Aurora Lights.....I ran into them setting up a projection studio set up and thought the tubes were standard flouro lites....looks similar but the cost and all way different....the set up I played with came from Enviromental Projections Systems out of Austin Tx....they manufactured a really nice front projection system.....
Thanks for the photos and info. Would it be possible to see the end result of all this?
Also (humm, how to phrase): If say, I wanted to hire a crew like this for a shoot, in what general area would the $ be? $1k, $10K, etc.
So often we see a great photo used in an add campain, without a clue with regard to the planning, crew, equipment, skill / experience, and costs involved.
Basically, what distinguishes these "flo" units is summed in three terms; two relate to the word "continuous" and then variability in output.
1) The first continuous has to do with how fluorescent bulbs work. Fluorescent units excite phosphors applied to the inside surface of a hollow glass tube (usually). The mixture of phosphors used for the coating determines the color temperature of the unit. Some of the phosphors are very expensive, so they are used in very limited quantities in consumer units because of their cost.
In these professional lighting units, they are used in quantities required to balance the light as closely as possible to daylight, almost regardless of cost. (No fluorescent technology is truly continuous in that there are a series of "spikes" in their color spectrum that are not present in true continuous light sources like the Sun.) The tubes may also be coated to eliminate UV light.
2) The second continuous has to do with time intervals. All fluorescent lights "flicker". It is the nature of the technology.
In the old days of electric ballasts, the flicker equaled the electrical line frequency, 60 Hz in the USA. The rate was so slow, many people could get headaches and eyestrain from the beat frequency.
Modern "electronic" ballasts can beat at a much faster rate, but many consumer ballasts are still too slow for photographic use at faster shutter speeds, especially with focal-plane shutters. You may get "banding" across the image as the shutter slit moves across the image plane and the light flickers or "strobes". These professional units are designed with extremely high-speed ballasts to avoid the problem with banding. (22KHz)
3) The third thing that these lights do is vary their output. Conventional ballasts do not allow variable output. You cannot use a conventional "dimmer" switch to do the job.
You can "bank" fixtures to turn individual bulbs on an off, but that's about it for conventional units. (You can also "shutter" the units, basically like mini blinds, which truly does work pretty well, although the light angle can change.)
BTW, HMI lighting is often the other choice for "continuous" lighting, but I didn't notice it used here.
Angelo....a really great post ......that set of Flouro lites looks like what used to be called Aurora Lights.....I ran into them setting up a projection studio set up and thought the tubes were standard flouro lites....looks similar but the cost and all way different....the set up I played with came from Enviromental Projections Systems out of Austin Tx....they manufactured a really nice front projection system.....
Thanks for the photos and info. Would it be possible to see the end result of all this?
Also (humm, how to phrase): If say, I wanted to hire a crew like this for a shoot, in what general area would the $ be? $1k, $10K, etc.
So often we see a great photo used in an add campain, without a clue with regard to the planning, crew, equipment, skill / experience, and costs involved.
Thanks,
Sam
Sam:
As soon as the finals are done I will post them. I've just approved the comps and the artwork for the print ads is being finalized for December publications.
I'm not at liberty to reveal the costs in a public forum but the fees for the shoot included:
Photographer
Art Director
Model
3 assistants
all equipment
10 hour day
3 final shots
all post processing and necessary manipulation
digital files
right to use - 2 years - national
As soon as the finals are done I will post them. I've just approved to comps and the artwork for the print ads is being finalized for December publications.
I'm not at liberty to reveal the costs in a public forum but the fees for the shoot included:
Photographer
Art Director
Model
3 assistants
all equipment
10 hour day
3 final shots
all post processing and necessary manipulation
digital files
right to use - 2 years - national
(look for my PM)
Thanks Angelo. This helps me put all this in perspective. I always knew it took a lot to get a great professional image, but couldn't envision what you have shown.
A great story / news article / education / sales tool would be a documentry showing just how much is involved in capturing a commercial image for an add campain / mag add / etc.
When Kinos first came out, we thought we could duplicate them on the cheap as they would only rent the lights. Wrong. Like Ziggy noted, there is a difference.
When Kinos first came out, we thought we could duplicate them on the cheap as they would only rent the lights. Wrong. Like Ziggy noted, there is a difference.
Well until I can figure out how to load the ads I'll post the two images Robert shot which I chose for the ad campaign.
Please note, these two images are NOT mine, they are Robert Trachtenberg's.
...
Angelo,
Now that I know what you are looking for, tell your people that next time they don't need a professional model; I will pose for free.
(... And I guarantee, you will get what you paid for, maybe less.)
On a more serious note:
Awesome images!
I hope you don't have to deal with the, "her head is cut off and where's the rest of her arm?" Close crops are often necessary for ads and brochures, but many folks don't understand.
The emotions relayed by her expression and the extremely smooth skin tones and overall lightness all contribute to the sense of happiness and fulfillment which should enhance your marketing goals and expectations.
Rather than try to include a PDF attachment, you should probably just post it somewhere and provide links. (You preserve a fair amount of embedded security that way.) If you really want to post images, extract each page as a JPG file, and post the images as usual. (Oops, Antoine already suggested that.)
Beautiful! Looks like the model did her job to perfection, as well as the photographer, and crew.
It is surprising how much, equipment, knowledge, skill, and hard work are needed to get what looks like a very relaxed person just sitting there enjoying themselves.
Small nit pick............2nd photo is leaning to the right.
Comments
We just need some anal obssesive compulsive computer boffin to start the hunt
Please post back in here Nik when you know more.
Nik: I assure you those lamps are anything but DYI. Those are high color rendering flourescents able to be controlled to deliver a range of kelvin through a seriously complicated light meter control box. I think the units cost somewhere around $2000 and bulbs something like $100 apiece.
All of the gear these guys carried in and used quite effectively supports the old adage; "the difference between men and boys, is the price of their toys"
thanks for looking.
Moderator of: Location, Location, Location , Mind Your Own Business & Other Cool Shots
:argue
:stfu
:beatwax
Chris - you're no longer my friend!!! :crazy
.
Moderator of: Location, Location, Location , Mind Your Own Business & Other Cool Shots
I deal with many types of lighting for store design and I'm aware of the various flouro bulbs, including daylight, available. I agree with Gus that many can be suckered into paying a high price for something in one industry that can be had for less with a little "shopping around" but I think this system falls into a very different category. Even if the lamps are similar to "off the shelf" (but they didn't appear to be) it's really the electronics of the overall system that would jack the cost up.
He was able to turn dark shadowy spaces into brilliant spaces and with almost no shadows or hot spots. And he used only two of the HCRF units and two traditional canopys.
Believe me, for what I'm paying this guy for this shoot, he wouldn't get away with excusing bad pictures due to poor light.
Moderator of: Location, Location, Location , Mind Your Own Business & Other Cool Shots
I guess I got too excited too early :-)
{crawling back under the rock}
... and I missed all the fun of this discussion!
Basically, what distinguishes these "flo" units is summed in three terms; two relate to the word "continuous" and then variability in output.
1) The first continuous has to do with how fluorescent bulbs work. Fluorescent units excite phosphors applied to the inside surface of a hollow glass tube (usually). The mixture of phosphors used for the coating determines the color temperature of the unit. Some of the phosphors are very expensive, so they are used in very limited quantities in consumer units because of their cost.
In these professional lighting units, they are used in quantities required to balance the light as closely as possible to daylight, almost regardless of cost. (No fluorescent technology is truly continuous in that there are a series of "spikes" in their color spectrum that are not present in true continuous light sources like the Sun.) The tubes may also be coated to eliminate UV light.
2) The second continuous has to do with time intervals. All fluorescent lights "flicker". It is the nature of the technology.
In the old days of electric ballasts, the flicker equaled the electrical line frequency, 60 Hz in the USA. The rate was so slow, many people could get headaches and eyestrain from the beat frequency.
Modern "electronic" ballasts can beat at a much faster rate, but many consumer ballasts are still too slow for photographic use at faster shutter speeds, especially with focal-plane shutters. You may get "banding" across the image as the shutter slit moves across the image plane and the light flickers or "strobes". These professional units are designed with extremely high-speed ballasts to avoid the problem with banding. (22KHz)
3) The third thing that these lights do is vary their output. Conventional ballasts do not allow variable output. You cannot use a conventional "dimmer" switch to do the job.
You can "bank" fixtures to turn individual bulbs on an off, but that's about it for conventional units. (You can also "shutter" the units, basically like mini blinds, which truly does work pretty well, although the light angle can change.)
BTW, HMI lighting is often the other choice for "continuous" lighting, but I didn't notice it used here.
ziggy53
Moderator of the Cameras and Accessories forums
Thanks for the photos and info. Would it be possible to see the end result of all this?
Also (humm, how to phrase): If say, I wanted to hire a crew like this for a shoot, in what general area would the $ be? $1k, $10K, etc.
So often we see a great photo used in an add campain, without a clue with regard to the planning, crew, equipment, skill / experience, and costs involved.
Thanks,
Sam
thanks for sharing in the discussion zig
Moderator of: Location, Location, Location , Mind Your Own Business & Other Cool Shots
Art:
Glad you liked the post. Thanks for your input.
Moderator of: Location, Location, Location , Mind Your Own Business & Other Cool Shots
Sam:
As soon as the finals are done I will post them. I've just approved the comps and the artwork for the print ads is being finalized for December publications.
I'm not at liberty to reveal the costs in a public forum but the fees for the shoot included:
Photographer
Art Director
Model
3 assistants
all equipment
10 hour day
3 final shots
all post processing and necessary manipulation
digital files
right to use - 2 years - national
(look for my PM)
Moderator of: Location, Location, Location , Mind Your Own Business & Other Cool Shots
Thanks Angelo. This helps me put all this in perspective. I always knew it took a lot to get a great professional image, but couldn't envision what you have shown.
A great story / news article / education / sales tool would be a documentry showing just how much is involved in capturing a commercial image for an add campain / mag add / etc.
Sam
I see they now sell kits.
For those interested in more facts: http://www.kinoflo.com/FYI/FAQs.htm
http://jburtphotos.com
http://jburtphotos.smugmug.com
Basic but makin' changes
Kits are not really "expensive" on b&h.
I definitely will think about'em when improving my lighting stuffs
hmmmmm, I can't seem to attach this file and it won't load to my smugmug either.
Moderator of: Location, Location, Location , Mind Your Own Business & Other Cool Shots
maybe you can try too export some jpegs from the pdf. If you need some help for that, don't hesitate to ask me
Please note, these two images are NOT mine, they are Robert Trachtenberg's.
(C)2006-Robert Trachtenberg
(C)2006-Robert Trachtenberg
Moderator of: Location, Location, Location , Mind Your Own Business & Other Cool Shots
Now that I know what you are looking for, tell your people that next time they don't need a professional model; I will pose for free.
(... And I guarantee, you will get what you paid for, maybe less.
On a more serious note:
Awesome images!
I hope you don't have to deal with the, "her head is cut off and where's the rest of her arm?" Close crops are often necessary for ads and brochures, but many folks don't understand.
The emotions relayed by her expression and the extremely smooth skin tones and overall lightness all contribute to the sense of happiness and fulfillment which should enhance your marketing goals and expectations.
Rather than try to include a PDF attachment, you should probably just post it somewhere and provide links. (You preserve a fair amount of embedded security that way.) If you really want to post images, extract each page as a JPG file, and post the images as usual. (Oops, Antoine already suggested that.)
ziggy53
Moderator of the Cameras and Accessories forums
It is surprising how much, equipment, knowledge, skill, and hard work are needed to get what looks like a very relaxed person just sitting there enjoying themselves.
Small nit pick............2nd photo is leaning to the right.
Sam