Defective Sony CCDs showing up EVERYWHERE

Forehead

Hello fellow D-grinners.

I've uncovered a pandemic here, involving Sony CCDs built between 2002 and 2005, affecting many different camera types. Now the problem may not manifest itself until after the warranty expires (what a surprise) but, if your camera is on the GROWING list of cameras that Sony supplied CCDs to, you should be able to get the defective CCD replaced at NO CHARGE to you.

Here's the problem:

Sony supplied multitudes of plastic-encapsulated CCDs (rather then the true hermetically-sealed CERAMIC packages) for its own cameras, as well as Nikon and a bunch of others (see www.engadget.com/2005/10/10/sony-comes-clean-about-CCD-defects.html). The problem with plastic encapsulants is that, over time, moisture will--I say again: WILL--make its way through and start ADVERSELY affecting the electrical properties of the CCDs and other chips.

I know: I was a plastic package reliability technician for three years at Intel Corporation (Chandler, AZ) during the '386 and '486 heydays. I assisted in numerous studies involving different temperature-humidity conditions and their effects on plastic-encapsulated components (which are cheaper, of course, than hermetics). And, while I'm at it, I was also involved in studies on how well multi-layer leadframe insulators based on 3M Kapton polyimide and Upulex (Japanese polyimide) performed under various temperature-humidity conditions. They didn't do so well--a fact that would manifest itself in very unpleasant ways in the AIRLINE industry, which had used polyimide as wiring insulation (the stuff is hard to burn, but moisture will embrittle it over time).

I showed this picture in an earlier thread from my Nikon Coolpix 5400; this behavior of banding, smearing and off-coloring of my images started a month ago, and has been getting worse in frequency (see below).

Now be aware that there's been NO ANNOUNCEMENT of a product recall (like there has been of Nikon EN-EL3 batteries, or certain Dell laptop computer batteries that have had a nasty tendancy to burst into flame), so you have to do some digging. If you DO have a product with a Sony sensor built between 2002 and 2005, and it's starting to give you fits :bash , you might want to see if it's included in any service advisories. Unfortunately, my camera hasn't YET been included (only the Nikon Coolpix 3100 and 5700 are officialy "advised" for FREE sensor replacements) and I had a bit of an argument with Nikon Service Relations about it, who claim ignorance at this point. Oh sure, they said I could send it in, and see if the problem is one that they can add to the service advisory.

That's right: IF!!!

You know what would happen, right? They'd claim some other problem that I'd have to shell out some BUCKS for--and they'd already have my camera.

Nice try, Nikon. You haven't scored any brownie points with me today!

So, here's that picture. If you want to see other expamples, I'm getting more and more...until that fateful day when I'll be greeted by the "Black Screen of Death".

You know, they should have at least used conformal coatings (like they do for chiefly automotive electronic components) to seal out the moisture.

But that would have made too much sense, RIGHT Sony and Nikon???

Seymore

Steve... check that URL. I'm not getting any read for the Sony CCDs.

Maybe they pulled it?

silica

Seymore wrote:

Steve... check that URL. I'm not getting any read for the Sony CCDs.

Maybe they pulled it?

This link works:

http://www.engadget.com/2005/10/10/sony-comes-clean-about-CCD-defect

pathfinder

This was discussed in the media several months ago. I'm glad my DSLRs are all Canon designed and built.


It will be interesting to see how this all shakes out.

Sony may have a large problem here, or the manufacturers who purchased from Sony may own the problem depending on how the chips were spec'd out at the time of purchase.

Awais Yaqub

But i bought sony w1 in 2004 it is working fine and new H5 has no problems
Is this with only Non sony cameras with sony CCD ?

Forehead

Check to be sure. If you have a hermetically-sealed CCD, you should be fine. The problem affects epoxy-packaged CCDs (at least that's what they're calling the plastic, but it could be glass-filled polyethersulfone also, which is also moisture-permeable).

It can take a couple of years for moisture (at normal conditions) to get through the packaging material but, once it does, the only way to get rid of it is to essentially bake the board at 100-150 degrees C for at least 48 hours--or replace the CCD altogether.

Again, it can take quite a while for problems to manifest, but you should just be on the lookout for signs of sensor problems. They first show up on occasion, but the frequency of "events" will increase. I had my camera for two years, but just in the last month I started getting the problems I described earlier. And it's been getting worse.

Awais Yaqub wrote:

But i bought sony w1 in 2004 it is working fine and new H5 has no problems
Is this with only Non sony cameras with sony CCD ?

Forehead

Whoever owns the problem are sure to face a cumulatively HUGE liability--which explains why a recall has never been announced. But one thing's for certain: whether it's CCDs or bottled water (I got QUITE a story about that last one, if anyone's interested), if you ship bad product out, it'll eventually find its way "right back at you"!

And this sort of thing has RUINED businesses in the past. I've seen it first-hand.

pathfinder wrote:

This was discussed in the media several months ago. I'm glad my DSLRs are all Canon designed and built.


It will be interesting to see how this all shakes out.

Sony may have a large problem here, or the manufacturers who purchased from Sony may own the problem depending on how the chips were spec'd out at the time of purchase.

mr peas

my dsc-f828 has no problems

Seefutlung

Man, I just purchased my daughter a Panasonic DMC-TZ1 and about to buy one for my G/F ... does Panasonic use Sony CCDs?

Gary

cmason

Forehead wrote:

.. the only way to get rid of it is to essentially bake the board at 100-150 degrees C for at least 48 hours--...

Guess you can always hope that your camera uses Sony batteries too....that way, when they burst into flame, they will dry out your sensor....

wxwax

That's just plain mean.

Forehead

I hope you don't have a Dell laptop! :thwak

cmason wrote:

Guess you can always hope that your camera uses Sony batteries too....that way, when they burst into flame, they will dry out your sensor....

Richard

cmason wrote:

Guess you can always hope that your camera uses Sony batteries too....that way, when they burst into flame, they will dry out your sensor....

Is that what we mean when we talk about choosing a camera system?

ballentphoto

Forehead wrote:

It can take a couple of years for moisture (at normal conditions) to get through the packaging material but, once it does, the only way to get rid of it is to essentially bake the board at 100-150 degrees C for at least 48 hours--or replace the CCD altogether.

So a few days in an Arizona summer should be good

smhs.images

Forehead wrote:

Hello fellow D-grinners.

I've uncovered a pandemic here, involving Sony CCDs built between 2002 and 2005, affecting many different camera types. Now the problem may not manifest itself until after the warranty expires (what a surprise) but, if your camera is on the GROWING list of cameras that Sony supplied CCDs to, you should be able to get the defective CCD replaced at NO CHARGE to you.

Here's the problem:

Sony supplied multitudes of plastic-encapsulated CCDs (rather then the true hermetically-sealed CERAMIC packages) for its own cameras, as well as Nikon and a bunch of others (see www.engadget.com/2005/10/10/sony-comes-clean-about-CCD-defects.html). The problem with plastic encapsulants is that, over time, moisture will--I say again: WILL--make its way through and start ADVERSELY affecting the electrical properties of the CCDs and other chips.

I know: I was a plastic package reliability technician for three years at Intel Corporation (Chandler, AZ) during the '386 and '486 heydays. I assisted in numerous studies involving different temperature-humidity conditions and their effects on plastic-encapsulated components (which are cheaper, of course, than hermetics). And, while I'm at it, I was also involved in studies on how well multi-layer leadframe insulators based on 3M Kapton polyimide and Upulex (Japanese polyimide) performed under various temperature-humidity conditions. They didn't do so well--a fact that would manifest itself in very unpleasant ways in the AIRLINE industry, which had used polyimide as wiring insulation (the stuff is hard to burn, but moisture will embrittle it over time).

I showed this picture in an earlier thread from my Nikon Coolpix 5400; this behavior of banding, smearing and off-coloring of my images started a month ago, and has been getting worse in frequency (see below).

Now be aware that there's been NO ANNOUNCEMENT of a product recall (like there has been of Nikon EN-EL3 batteries, or certain Dell laptop computer batteries that have had a nasty tendancy to burst into flame), so you have to do some digging. If you DO have a product with a Sony sensor built between 2002 and 2005, and it's starting to give you fits :bash , you might want to see if it's included in any service advisories. Unfortunately, my camera hasn't YET been included (only the Nikon Coolpix 3100 and 5700 are officialy "advised" for FREE sensor replacements) and I had a bit of an argument with Nikon Service Relations about it, who claim ignorance at this point. Oh sure, they said I could send it in, and see if the problem is one that they can add to the service advisory.

That's right: IF!!!

You know what would happen, right? They'd claim some other problem that I'd have to shell out some BUCKS for--and they'd already have my camera.

Nice try, Nikon. You haven't scored any brownie points with me today!

So, here's that picture. If you want to see other expamples, I'm getting more and more...until that fateful day when I'll be greeted by the "Black Screen of Death".

You know, they should have at least used conformal coatings (like they do for chiefly automotive electronic components) to seal out the moisture.

But that would have made too much sense, RIGHT Sony and Nikon???

Are you aware that there is a class action lawsuit in regards to this and you can get reimbursed for repairs? I just threw it away last night because my Sony F828 wasn't one of the cameras listed... and I am so nice I went through my garbage for you

Anyway the claim is listed as

Bruce Chabansky et al. v. Sony Electronice Inc., No. 05-cv-1979-JAH-RBB
Phone number listed is 866-266-8649

If you need more info please let me know... I can fax the forms to you if needed. It has to be submitted before October 2, 2007

Forehead

Sony defective CCD update
ALl right. After looking the entire day for some other way to calibrate my Nikon E5400 digicam (the one with the dying CCD)--with no luck, thank you very much--I found this link describing the problem with these Sony CCDs.

My first information was apparently in error, as it now seems that an iodine-containing adhesive used to seal the glass cover to the CCD caused degradation of whatever circuitry is needed to make them work. Of course, what is apparently NOT in error is that this is a condition that manifests itself slowly...over time...when MOISTURE is present in the air.

Well, Sony (and Nikon), excuse me for not living on the planet Dune.

I'll be expecting an updated service advisory to include the E5400 post-haste!

That link, then:

www.techon.nikkei.bp.co.jp/english/NEWS_EN/20051005/109314

Have fun with it.

Forehead

The plot thickens against Sony
Here's another link you might want to look at:

www.neasia.nikkeibp.com/neasiaarchivedetail/003252

This is looking to be a fertile breeding ground for all sorts of class-action lawsuits!

I'm no expert stock trader but, if you have any Sony stock, sell now!

Forehead

It's becoming so clear to me now!
I mentioned in an earlier thread how I was a reliability technician for Intel Corporation back in the late 80s. One of my unique studies involved what happens in the aluminum bondpads that the hair-thin gold bondwires are attached to (usually by thermosonic processes). The bondpads are on the surfaces of various sorts of electronic "chips", such as the ones described below.

The articles regarding the multitudes of defective Sony CCDs that I've read about over the last two days strongly implicates the erroneous use of an iodine-bearing adhesive used to bond the cover glass to the package containing the CCD chip. A most unfortunate choice of adhesive, methinks.

You see, aluminum and halogens don't get along very well. Usually it's chloride ions (they're everywhere, and thus hard to get rid of) that may get on the external leads of a package due to improper handling (your sweaty fingers are LOADED with chlorides). The chloride ions migrate toward the aluminum bondpads especially when electrical energy is applied. Once they reach the bondpads, they chew the aluminum up and cause bondlift failures.

As the iodide ions present in the adhesive that Sony used are also halogens, if they reach the bondpads (with the help of humidity and the passage of a little time), KISS THEM GOODBYE! Only we're not talking about ionic migration up leadframes, but rather the introduction of moist halogen-bearing gases right in the chip cavity!

Somebody at Sony should have known about the potential incompatibility between these materials!

Is all this starting to make anyone else sick, or is it just me?

claudermilk

I have to say it's been fascinating reading your posts. Being the IT guy at a smaller electronics manufacturer, I have some clue (but only a little) of what you're talking about. Sounds to me like someone at Sony made the assumption that we nice money-laden consumers would just replace that nasty, obsolete 6-month-old camera with the lastest thing on the shelf long before those incompatibilities casued any trouble. OOPS!

Looks to me my policy of avoiding Sony products wherever I can is the right one.

Richard

Forehead wrote:

I'm no expert stock trader but, if you have any Sony stock, sell now!

Things are not going very well for them lately. I just read that Apple is recalling over a million laptops because of Sony batteries that apparently have a similar problem to the ones that forced the Dell recall.

ziggy53

Here is a pretty good (or bad) list of affected devices:

http://www.imaging-resource.com/badccds.html

Note that Canon, Fuji, Minolta, Nikon, Olympus, Pentax, Ricoh and Sony products are listed. I would bet that more models will be listed as the scope of the problem manifests itself through time.

Products include digital cameras, both digicams and one dSLR, camcorders and PDAs are listed.

ziggy53

Forehead

Yes and, regarding my earlier considerations of purchasing either the Sony DSC R1 or A100, they can take a long walk on a short pier now! :flush

claudermilk wrote:

I have to say it's been fascinating reading your posts. Being the IT guy at a smaller electronics manufacturer, I have some clue (but only a little) of what you're talking about. Sounds to me like someone at Sony made the assumption that we nice money-laden consumers would just replace that nasty, obsolete 6-month-old camera with the lastest thing on the shelf long before those incompatibilities casued any trouble. OOPS!

Looks to me my policy of avoiding Sony products wherever I can is the right one.

Forehead

Time and time and TIME again, it goes to show you that if inferior product is shipped out anyway, it has a nasty habit of coming "right back atchya"!

rsinmadrid wrote:

Things are not going very well for them lately. I just read that Apple is recalling over a million laptops because of Sony batteries that apparently have a similar problem to the ones that forced the Dell recall.

Forehead

Thanks, Ziggy! I've seen those lists (and I bet they're FAR from exhaustive), but I needed NOT to be the only one here.

I question my own sanity enough as it is!

ziggy53 wrote:

Here is a pretty good (or bad) list of affected devices:

http://www.imaging-resource.com/badccds.html

Note that Canon, Fuji, Minolta, Nikon, Olympus, Pentax, Ricoh and Sony products are listed. I would bet that more models will be listed as the scope of the problem manifests itself through time.

Products include digital cameras, both digicams and one dSLR, camcorders and PDAs are listed.

ziggy53

Forehead

Hey Ziggy,

While I have YET to hear from Nikon regarding their replacing my CCD (at no cost to me), and while the Nikon Coolpix 5400 camera has yet to make it on Nikon's service advisory list, I found a couple of compelling facts here:

First, www.digitalsecrets.net/CP5400.html states that the Nikon Coolpix 5400 camera uses the SAME SuperHAD 1/1.8" 5.26MP CCD that the Sony Cybershot DSC-V1 uses.

Here's the good part: that link you shared earlier-- www.imaging-resource.com/badccds.html shows that the Sony Cybershot DSC-V1 is--I mean IS--on that list of affected products.

Let's see, duhhh...two different camera makes, err...SAME defective CCD...uhh, what's that answer again, Nikon (Hint: add the Coolpix 5400 to your service advisory list PRONTO!)?

But what do I know???

ziggy53 wrote:

Here is a pretty good (or bad) list of affected devices:

http://www.imaging-resource.com/badccds.html

Note that Canon, Fuji, Minolta, Nikon, Olympus, Pentax, Ricoh and Sony products are listed. I would bet that more models will be listed as the scope of the problem manifests itself through time.

Products include digital cameras, both digicams and one dSLR, camcorders and PDAs are listed.

ziggy53

Forehead

Nikon's sandbagging
Well folks, I got a response from "Frank". That's it, just "Frank" at tech support, telling me that essentially there's nothing wrong with the E5400 camera, and to "send it in for evaluation".

Now my response was rather stern, but i did try to end it on a positive note. After all, Nikon didn't MAKE those junk CCDs, they only BOUGHT them.

From Sony.

At this point, if I can get a replacement CCD, I'll fix the camera myself! I've done my homework, and I know I can do it! I just haven't figured out how to get Sony to send ME the replacement.

Jekyll & Hyde

J: I've been waiting for the other boot to drop for quite a while now.

H: I still use my Sony F717 for macros (over 50K pics by now).

J: Hmmm. I wonder if I should throw the whole unit in the oven for a while...

H: If it makes you feel any better F'H, at least they aren't killing people like the Automotive/Tire or the Pharmaceutical industries!

Good luck with your cam.
J&H

Forehead

No, don't throw it in the oven. It'll only make it worse, seeing how it's not just moisture we're dealing with, but corrosive gasses and bad wirebond interfaces as well.


With Nikon just sandbagging at this point (my last response was in "improper format"), I've decided to contact Sony directly to see what they can do.

One thing's for sure: I'll never buy a Nikon product again unless they completely redefine their customer relations philosophy.

Jekyll & Hyde wrote:

J: I've been waiting for the other boot to drop for quite a while now.

H: I still use my Sony F717 for macros (over 50K pics by now).

J: Hmmm. I wonder if I should throw the whole unit in the oven for a while...

H: If it makes you feel any better F'H, at least they aren't killing people like the Automotive/Tire or the Pharmaceutical industries!

Good luck with your cam.
J&H

liquidsquid

Whew, my R1 is not on that list...

Forehead

It's too NEW to be (whew, huh?!)

liquidsquid wrote:

Whew, my R1 is not on that list...

Forehead

Sony's just sandbagged me also.

Checking some repair sites, I'm seeing repair quotes of about $200. Not good.