Medium Format?

claudermilk · August 30, 2006

OK, so anyone here shoot MF? I made the mistake of browsing the KEH catalogs they keep sending me (I guess the marketing is working :dunno), and noticed the used MF market has become dirt cheap. So, I'm thinking of diving in. Currently it looks like a Bronica ETRSi or Mamiya Pro/Pro TL are good starting points. I've looked at Hassy 500C & CM, but lens prices eliminate the "budget" aspect quickly. I'm looking at film only, digital still costs a truckload of money & I have yet to see any sell listing for used MF digital backs; for me there is a local pro shop that should be able to competently handle processing & can scan to 24-bit TIFF....so I can have my cake & eat it too. I'm also sticking with non-AF as those are still current (expensive) models.

ziggy53 · August 30, 2006

If you don't mind a fixed lens, the Yashica 124G is still a very sharp and capable camera. I also have a Yashica 635 that can accept either 120 roll film or 35mm film with an adapter. Not too convenient, but certainly interesting and the quality is amazing.

The Kiev 60 is a traditional SLR design that shoots 6x6. I have the Arsat 80mm, f2.8MC and the Mir 45mm, f3.5. Sadly, I haven't shot through this camera. A Carl Zeiss Jena 50mm is supposed to be available that is spectacular, as is a 180mm, f2.8 Sonnar.

For dirt cheap, the Lubitel has a genuine following for sharpness and decent images. I have several. Again, no images.

ziggy53

Justiceiro · August 30, 2006

I shoot MF, but with an old East German Pentacon 6 TL. some issues to consider:

1. Don't bother getting prints done, they cost about $1 per shot; its much better to get the negs developed (relatively cheap) and then select the ones you have printed. Keep in mind that even Pro Labs can be remarkeably stupid about 120 film, for example, when I used to get prints done about 1/2 the time they returned them to me in a 5x7 format even though my negs are 6x6.

2. I would invest in a scanner capable of scanning negs. I got an Epson refurbished for $100, direct from the manufacturer, and it has the capability of scanning 35mm and 120 negatives and slides. DPI goes to 9600- getting each set of MF negs put on a disk will likely set you back $10 or so, so by the time you've processed 10 rolls, you will have paid for the scanner. The more you do yourself with MF, the more you will save. And frankly, I'm not to impressed with how "pro-labs" handle MF; granted, you can go to one of the manhattan super specialty labs, but they charge an arm and a leg. Why not do it yourself?

3. Ask yourself why you are getting involved with MF. Seriously, I got into it because I was in Central Europe and fond a pentacon at Skodafoto (the most reputable dealer in the region) for very little money. I got in with a great Zeiss Jena lens for about $110. The Soviet Cameras, however, are quite finicky. It cost another $120 for a tune-up and even now I have to baby the thing.

I assume you are getting into medium format for the better image quality. When the shots come out, they are indeed nice and sharp.

You are going to be getting into some serious cash expenditure once you get to the lenses though. Not to mention the fact that for a lot of models you need to lay out some money for an independent light meter (I use a gosen Luna Pro).

I'm glad I got my MF because I like to screw around with that sort of thing- but my screwing around will likely cost me a lot les than yours will- wouldn't you be better of investing this money in higher quality DSLR products?

I find that I use my MF gear about twice a year, in terms of shooting 120 film with the pentacon body. however, I do make good use of my Zeiss Jena lenses that I got for the body.

This thread shows what you can do with an MF lens and a DSLR adaptor.

The CZ Jena lenses rival Bronica's and possibly hassy's, particularly if you get a good example.

Here i a shot with my 300mm Orestegor.

And another:

The Meyer Gorlitz lenses are not as high quality as the CZ Jena, but since with a DSLR sensor you are shooting entirely through the MF lens' "sweet spot" the quality is quite good. You can always get the orestegor 300mm for $300 or less on "the bay." I doubt a 300mm lens built for a hasselblad would be anywhere near that price.

Anyway, don't let me discourage you completely. A 500 CM can be bought for not much money, and you can probably find an adaptor for getting Soveit Glass onto it.

Check out Hartblei, they refurbish and gaurantee Kiev stuff (which is crap most of the time, terrible QC), and have a good variety of lenses and adapters. They basically file off the gears and make sure that the specs of the Kiev parts mesh. I.E. if that gear is speced by Kiev to be 2mm, then it may be 2mm, or 1.9mm, or 2.1mm. People have described the Kiev film advance sound as being like "crunching walnuts." Hartblie files off or replaces the gears, seals the stuff, etc. Once you get it from them, you know its good.

I think Kiev lenses ought to be better, and I think they are hassy compatible. Ziggy ought to know more about this.

All in all, I have enjoyed shooting MF, but I only sank about $3-400 into it.

Then again, in 3-4 years these 15-22mp digital backs should come down in price, perhaps to $2000 or less. In that instance, it could be that these used Hasselblads will be in demand again, and the prices will rise. So maybe buying one now is a good idea.

ziggy53 · August 30, 2006

Justiceiro wrote:

I shoot MF, but with an old East German Pentacon 6 TL. ...
I think Kiev lenses ought to be better, and I think they are hassy compatible. Ziggy ought to know more about this. ...

Justiceiro,

The Kiev 60 is very similar to the Pentacon 6, and has the Pentacon 6 breech mount.

The Kiev 88 can have either a Pentacon mount (also called the Kiev 688) or K88 lens mount.

The CZ lenses I mentioned are both originally designed for the Pentacon.

ziggy53

claudermilk · August 31, 2006

Thanks for the replies. To answer some of the questions:

Why? Because it seems like fun for landscapes & portraiture. Those two applications could really benefit from the larger format...and I'd like to get more into those areas. It's something different than the DSLR.

DSLR? I'm definitely keeping my 20D kit. That it is incomplete, and I still will fill out my intended lens collection. I'm looking at different cameras for different uses. MF for landscapes & portraits, DSLR for candids, dance/theater/action stuff, and general walk-around.

Cost? I'm really only thinking along these lines because I see that prices have dropped to where it's you can have a full setup for under $1k (some outfits at KEH hover all the way down to the $500-600 range if you are willing to go to BGN equipment). I am patient & can wait a while between lenses (heck, I went nearly 9 months with only a 50/1.8 on the 20D to save up for the 24-70/2.8). Comparing Bronica & Mamiya glass to Canon L glass makes it look like a bargain, so I'm not worried there--I think I can still get away with circa $1k for a full multi-lens setup in the end. I do already have a Sekonic L-358, so that's covered (and could allow me to put off a fancy AE prism). Besides, this will be cheaper than upgrading to a 1Ds body... Like you said, this seems to be a very good time to snap up MF gear while the market is depressed--then bide our time until digital backs come down in price.

I was thinking scanner for getting images into the PC to do PP & get prints from that. Not sure what can handle MF well. I do have an older, inexpensive Canon flatbed, but that would have to get replaced I'm sure.

I'll look more into the other options. I have read a bit about the Kiev cameras. So, no opinions on the Bronica or Mamiya? How about some basics like leaf vs focal plane shutter?

Justiceiro · August 31, 2006

Claudermilk-

I can't really comment on the Bronica or Mamiya because I haven't owned them. I was in the middle of reconstructing my "regular" camera outfit after a burgulary when I got the Pentacon, and I really couldn't afford to get into a higher level of MF at that point (and get a 20d and accesories). I actually sort of bought the Pentacon on a whim. I was at a place called Skodafoto in Prague, where 12 years earlier I had purchased a Flexaret (basically a Rolleicord by Meopta rather than F&H). I loved the flexaret, but a guy I knew in Prague who I was shopping with convinced me to go with the Pentacon- basically because he was worried about Parallax error due to a blow to the front assembly of the TLR (always a worry with TLRs), and he liked the lens options for the Pentacon.

I haven't been disappointed, and I think the Pentacon (or any medium format) is excellent for Studio and landscape work. That's exactly what I use it for.

Here are some shots with the Zeiss Jena Biometar 80mm:

There are some issues with QC when dealing with CZ Jena lenses, or so I have heard. All of mine have been great.

But I would buy differently if I were buying now- depsite the fact that I sort of enjoy the perversity of carrying around a camera that is radically uncool and about as heavy as a tank, I would really consider one of two things: going back to the TLR, or getting a HAssleblad or hasselblad clone.

Twin Lins Reflex

The advantage of the TLR is that they are small and easy to carry around. I'm not so sure the Mamiya TLR is a good idea; it has far more lenses than other TLRs but they are hard to find and, let's be honest, the point of the TLR is that its easily mobile and great for candid shots. If you have a 300mm lens this sort of obviates that.

Some of the best candid shots I ever got were with my Flexaret. You can hold it at waist level and take a shot while looking down, meanwhile the direction of focus is 45 degrees different and you are "looking" straight ahead. I find that TLRs don't cause "camera freeze" in subjects. They are FAR less intrusive, and one of the few MFs that are good for street and doc. Today a flexaret from a good seller on the "grea auction website", like cupog, should run you no mroe than $120 for the latest models. Gold Camera also sells from the US, but at higher prices (Cupog is in Slovakia). I think you might also be able to order on line directly from Skodafoto, and their reputation is sterling.

Hasselblad Clones

The cool thin about getting a Hassy or a HAssy clone is that there are adaptors available that let you mount most of those lenses on your 20D, the way that I mount my CZJ lenses. I tell you what, you can get some great deals on old Zeiss glass for MF.

Also, they are making new glass for the 501 CM- check out the following link:

The Kiev Chronicles

I think this is the way I would go. Perhaps an actual 501CM body, and some used lenses, or new lenses form Kiev/Hartblei.

the one reason I ould stay away from Bronica and Mamiya is that they are basically defunct, insofar as their old stuff is concerned. I bet that when you can afford a digital back, HAssy and HArtblei will find a lot more new stuff for the old 501CM market.

BTW, I was trolling digital backs and found one for the Hassy, 6 mp, only $2000. Not there yet, but close.

claudermilk · September 1, 2006

Lots to think about. I think part of the attraction of this idea is the perversity of using such a throwback camera, sounds like we're similar in that respect.

One thing that makes my research easier is I am sticking with the SLR type cameras. I just don't like rangefinders, and TLR's are a little odd to me right now--besides what they seems to be really good at I am going to continue using the 20D kit for.

I'm not all that concerned with the fact that Bronica is gone & Mamiya is right now on life support. Doesn't mean the gear suddenly stops working. I'm not looking for the latest new toy to hit the market, remember I'm looking at the older manual models, not stuff like the 645AF/AFD or ZD--that's still out of reach. I do realize that in years to come parts & repairs may be more difficult, but then the models I'm now avoiding ought to be in the same price range. With that logic, I need to dump my old Minolta gear *now*.

I am considering the Hassy 500C/CM or 501C/CM, but those & their lenses are far more expensive. But, dang, a chrome one just looks so cool, not to mention being able to say "I'm going to go shoot with the Hasselblad this weekend." I'm also looking at the Kievs, though have some misgivings on those; spotty QC is fine with a Holga--that's the whole point--but with these I'm not convinced yet.

Oh, and I floated the idea to the wife last night :uhoh The response: "That's all? Go for it. But just remember the other lenses you need for the 20D."

super

Did I mention I love my wife?

ziggy53 · September 1, 2006

claudermilk wrote:

... Oh, and I floated the idea to the wife last night :uhoh The response: "That's all? Go for it. But just remember the other lenses you need for the 20D." super Did I mention I love my wife?

Dang Chris, tell your wife I love her too, or at least her attitude. She sounds like a keeper.

I don't know that I would spend too much on old MF equipment, before actually trying your method of scanning etc. Digital is sooo good these days, and you don't have to mess with scratches and dust (so much) and film flatness and film daing and film storage and ... you probably get the idea.

ziggy53

SuperJared · September 1, 2006

You should check out some of the vintage folders at http://www.certo6.com/

That... and a HolgaMod

claudermilk · September 2, 2006

I wasn't really looking at folders, thought I did read about that guy. Seeing the prices on his restoredstuff, it's tempting even though I don't like rangefinders a whole lot.

Dealing with the film & scanning has been a consideration. I don't expect to be taking a large volume of shots, and scanning to PC from negatives/slides is where I think I'll be headed. I've seen the Epson 4180 refurb for $99--and it is intended to deal with MF scanning from the start. So I think I have a plan there. Since having to deal with the massive number of files generated by digital, I have developed a good storage/filing habit that ought to translate to the film fairly well. I can even add to my DAM database fields to handle searchable fields of where the physical film is.

I have a local pro shop that has a very large collection of MF gear for rent, so that's step 1--spend the $60 and rent the ETRSI and Pro-TL rigs for a weekend & go shoot to see if it really is such a great idea. They have anumber of other choices as well (501CMs, 645AFD, SQ-Ai, GS-1, etc). It's hard to resist a full 645 rig for ~$500 though...

Oh, and I blame HolgaMod for this slippery slope I'm on. That's the first MF place that got me going. Still plan on getting one of those eventually.

AntoineD · September 2, 2006

claudermilk wrote:

I am considering the Hassy 500C/CM or 501C/CM, but those & their lenses are far more expensive. But, dang, a chrome one just looks so cool, not to mention being able to say "I'm going to go shoot with the Hasselblad this weekend." I'm also looking at the Kievs, though have some misgivings on those; spotty QC is fine with a Holga--that's the whole point--but with these I'm not convinced yet.

I've bought a used 500 c/m hasselblad (made in 1985) and it rocks! It's all bought mechanics: no electricity at all (requires a lightmeter). All manual. Bought it on ebay for $680 (body, back and a lens, all very nice and fully working)!
I'll post some shots next weeks.

If you want to avoid spending too much money, you may wanna go for a Kiev body on which you'll be able to mount a Hasselblad lens, as far as I know. Don't do the opposite: buying a 'blad is about getting this – damn, what's the word? – kind of image... so tasty.

All you need is a 80 mm f2.8 ("like" a 50 mm on a 24x36) and there it goes! Buying further lenses ain't cheap but well, that's the point when dealing with MF.

Look for some kit (body + lens) on ebay. There are very interesting kits, I can tell!

gtc · September 3, 2006

pentax 6x7
lenses won't break the bank.just a thought.

claudermilk · September 3, 2006

You guys are no help!

However, when the nicest Bronica 75/2.8 PE in KEH's stock can be had for $159 vs a Hassy 80/2.8 anywhere from $265 for the roughest one in stock to over $1k it makes you stop & think. I can see that the budget-MF idea can quickly get to cha-ching, cha-ching.

I've looked at the site on Kievs & the impression I got was some backs were compatible, but that's it. The other deal-breaker there is once you have one reworked to be a nice usable camera you're back at the prices of the Japanese & Swedish rigs.

SuperJared, you're also a bad influence. I spent hours on that site yesterday. Those Isolettes look pretty inviting, especially considering his prices on refurbs and the tasty example images. Augh, I can see I'm going to end up with a collection of these darn things! :splat

AntoineD · September 3, 2006

claudermilk wrote:

You guys are no help!

However, when the nicest Bronica 75/2.8 PE in KEH's stock can be had for $159 vs a Hassy 80/2.8 anywhere from $265 for the roughest one in stock to over $1k it makes you stop & think. I can see that the budget-MF idea can quickly get to cha-ching, cha-ching

...so don't get body & primary lens apart: get a kit. :up:

wildlight · September 3, 2006

I went to MF for landscapes. All but the last two photos here:
http://wildlight.smugmug.com/gallery/1370045

are taken with a Bronica SQ-Ai with a 50mm, 80mm, and 150mm lenses. I've moved on to large format for even more transparency space.

With the availability of the Canon 5D, I don't think I'd bother with MF except as something different to play with. The 5D gives you near MF quality without the scanning problems. Flatbed scanners really only give you about 1200 dpi due to the poor optics. You can always get a pro-scan (drum or Imacon), but those cost me $25 a pop.

That said. There's still something awesome about seeing the chromes on the light table. The computer screen just doesn't do justice, I think.

Something to think about on MF format is which film size. I like the square format, because I don't have to rotate the camera. I know with the RB67 you can rotate the back, but others don't give you that option. Just something to think about.

claudermilk · September 4, 2006

wildlight wrote:

I went to MF for landscapes. All but the last two photos here:
http://wildlight.smugmug.com/gallery/1370045

are taken with a Bronica SQ-Ai with a 50mm, 80mm, and 150mm lenses. I've moved on to large format for even more transparency space.

With the availability of the Canon 5D, I don't think I'd bother with MF except as something different to play with. The 5D gives you near MF quality without the scanning problems. Flatbed scanners really only give you about 1200 dpi due to the poor optics. You can always get a pro-scan (drum or Imacon), but those cost me $25 a pop.

That said. There's still something awesome about seeing the chromes on the light table. The computer screen just doesn't do justice, I think.

Something to think about on MF format is which film size. I like the square format, because I don't have to rotate the camera. I know with the RB67 you can rotate the back, but others don't give you that option. Just something to think about.

Beautiful shots. When the 5D came out, I looked closely at the specs & in large part my 20D serves my needs for a 35mm-SLR better than the 5D, not to mention the $3k pricetag. Truly, for my main use of the DSLR, the only upgrade from where I'm at is a 1D series, and that is just not in the budget. One of the reasons for my exploring MF is the try-something-different aspect--always with the fact that noticing the now-sub-$1k price making the whole idea feasible. Another attraction is the fact that it would force slowing down and paying attention to the process of photography. I love digital, but film still has its attractions.

It seems the 1200dpi is 4x better than the typical image I'm getting now, in any case it's plenty high enough for my needs--and getting my own scanner can potentially be paid for after 4-8 images. I'm not sure what the local place I'd use for scans is using, but they only charge $10-15/roll. There is a tertiary thought here as well: Get a new battery for the OM-2 sitting on the shelf & drag that back out.

Looking at they Hassy 500C kits vs SQ-Ai kits, the price differential is still there--about $1100 vs $600. I'm wondering if going from $500-600 to $1100-1200 is really worth it; reading on the MF mega site, it sounds like probably not--especially for my intended use.

So, now back to my original question in the thread--how did you like shooting the SQ-Ai? Good points? Bad points? I was also hoping to turn up some ETRSi and 645 Pro-TL users. I do appreciate all the side-trips I've been sent on in the meantime; looks like ultimately to satisfy my curiosity I'll end up with a collection of Holga, Isolette, and 645 or 6x6 rig.

SuperJared · September 4, 2006

claudermilk wrote:

I do appreciate all the side-trips I've been sent on in the meantime; looks like ultimately to satisfy my curiosity I'll end up with a collection of Holga, Isolette, and 645 or 6x6 rig.

Can't go wrong with the Holga and Isolette combo! I'm looking to pick up a Franka Solida from Certo6. Jurgen says it has the best lens of all the folders and it includes a meter.

gtc · September 5, 2006

go holga or lomo
first and see whether this is just a passing fad

Justiceiro · September 6, 2006

Holga or Lomo can produce some interesting pictures, but I would hardly make this my main MF system.

I can't escape the feeling that it's like monkeys throwing fruit at a canvas.:D

claudermilk · September 6, 2006

Justiceiro wrote:

Holga or Lomo can produce some interesting pictures, but I would hardly make this my main MF system.

I can't escape the feeling that it's like monkeys throwing fruit at a canvas.:D

:lol4 Interesting analogy. I'm sure I will end up with a Holga eventually.

I have wanted to try my hand at MF for quite a long time, it's just recently I paid any attention to the used market & noticed the prices have dropped to somewhere I can afford--when I saw that I can get a whole rig for less than the last bit of Canon L glass I bought & 1/3 what I plan to spend on the next one it suddenly became very reasonable. I actually have been poking around for a while & figured I'd throw the original question out to see if there were any other suggestions after I had gotten my feet wet. I have gotten some good pointers & some different areas to look at. For the "main" MF rig, I keep coming back to the ERTSi and ProTL; they seem to have a good match of features for me--just need to schedule a shoot weekend & rent them.

Jared, those folders look intriguing. I like the examples from the Isolettes & the Franka Solida. Prices are friendly too.

claudermilk · September 19, 2006

I finally resorted to D/Ling manuals on the various options & made up my mind. I now have a Mamiya 645 Pro rig on it's way from KEH. $350 shipped for a basic setup; body, non metered prism, 120 back & 80mm lens. Enough to get me going. Yes, I'm nuts.

AntoineD · September 19, 2006

claudermilk wrote:

I finally resorted to D/Ling manuals on the various options & made up my mind. I now have a Mamiya 645 Pro rig on it's way from KEH. $350 shipped for a basic setup; body, non metered prism, 120 back & 80mm lens. Enough to get me going. Yes, I'm nuts.

Don't worry, you did a great choice, I bet.

Medium Format?

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